Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[kye]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

@kye do you ever sleep?

Or are you a vampire or at least something of a night owl because I thought you were in the US but post regularly during our Europe daytime?!

Indeed I do!  But seeing as I live in Australia, I tend to keep local hours 😉 

[Michael S]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:13 PM, hyalinejim said:

Drum roll please....

I've finally got around to creating and releasing a LUT that gives accurate colour on the S5II and S5IIx. Big thanks to @Andrew Reid for allowing me to post about this.

It's available here:
https://lumasweet.com/shop/p/lumasweetlifelikes5ii

I'll get around to doing a write up on it at some stage. In the meantime, here's a YT video (don't laugh!) that I made about it. This might also be of interest to anyone who's interested in camera colour science in general, even if you don't have this camera.
 

 

Congratulations, that must have been an awful lot of work.

I'm just an amateur who likes to tinker with all of this. I experimented a bit with the VLOG to V709 LUT and briefly the "nicest" LUT provided by Panasonic and also an ACES workflow with IDT's and ODT's (in Vegas Pro) on footage of my S5(i) and of course they all give different results. From my experiments I suspect that accuracy was never a design goal for the V709 LUT. I believe it is called a monitoring LUT by Panasonic and I think that is what it is good at. It shows more detail in the shadows and highlights than I can make out from the footage when e.g. using a rec709 view transform using an aces workflow. It also strongly desaturates very saturated colours, allowing me to see details in strongly saturated areas which get completely saturation clipped with the standard rec709 view transform. So what the V709 LUT is good for is getting a pretty good impression of all the detail and color you're capturing while giving a reasonably contrasty look with mid grey sitting in the right spot. The rec709 view transform (ODT) might be more accurate for colors captured within range, but it clips brightness and saturation hard for anything out of range and the amount of information the camera can capture outside of rec709 is quite impressive (to me anyway who was used to using consumer camcorders).

I've e.g. shot some footage with blue led lights and while on the V709 LUT I could make out all kinds of detail being captured (while the blue looked very desaturated), the standard rec709 transform showed strongly saturated, even blue surfaces lacking any detail. But if you then start massaging the footage you'll find all the information is still there and you can bring it into range if you want to. Or you create a HDR export which simply contains all that detail (which then can't be shown properly on an OLED screen as it can't show colours that are both bright and highly saturated).

I also find it interesting that some of the colour errors you describe are what I recognize from all the years using Panasonic cameras and camcorders. Especially the way it handles sky is something I've seen in all their cameras. It seems they have a kind of recipe they stick to religiously.

But so far I settled on using the built-in V709 LUT as a monitoring LUT on camera and then using an ACES workflow to grade colors. I haven't got the tools to verify accuracy but it looks good enough to my eyes. Most of the times I don't even need to bother with corrections but then again I don't have critical customers to please other then myself.

 

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, Michael S said:

Congratulations, that must have been an awful lot of work.

Lol, yes it was! It started off as me saying to myself "Oh, I suppose I might as well knock up an accurate colour lut for my new camera, should probably take an hour or two", but it ended up taking a little bit longer than that!

It's an interesting idea that the V35 to V709 LUT is primarily designed for monitoring. It certainly works very well in that regard when it comes to colour because, as you say, there's very little clipping or over-saturation. But I always found the curve a bit weird for these reasons:

• Middle grey stays at 42 IRE. But middle grey for Rec709 is 49 IRE.
• The shadows are lifted. It looks OK on a Rec709 display, ie: dark areas do look dark:

But on an sRGB display you can never get true black without pulling the shadows down after the LUT. Panasonic says that "Output is in legal range only" but if you convert the output from legal to data levels then the  shadows are properly dark, but the highlights go into the superwhites, which is annoying:

 

I had a good long think about what kinds of curves to supply with my conversion. I settled on

• Panasonic's default curve (for those that are used to it)
• No curve at all (for those who want to create their own)
• A flat curve to just de-log the footage but keep highlight and shadow detail (for those who like to tweak exposure and contrast after the LUT. Middle grey = 49 IRE)
• A really nice, strong filmic curve (for those who like to tweak exposure and contrast before the LUT. Middle grey = 49 IRE)

LumaSweet FLAT:

LumaSweet FILM:

 

1 hour ago, Michael S said:

The rec709 view transform (ODT) might be more accurate for colors captured within range, but it clips brightness and saturation hard

Yes, without any gamut mapping or saturation control the more saturated colours get ugly fast. Here I've put the reference values of the chart as an overlay of little circles. If you can see them there's a discrepancy. Here's

ACES V-gamut to Rec709 colour:

LumaSweet Lifelike colour:

So my conversion handles highly saturated colours pretty well, straight off the bat. Even compared to Panasonic's V709, it is usually better at preventing very bright or saturated colours from slipping off the waveform in the shadow areas, and almost as good in the highlighights:

Panasonic V709 colour

 

LumaSweet Lifelike colour

 

[Walter H]

On 7/2/2023 at 3:20 AM, MrSMW said:

And final decision made…

The S1H is staying and the S5IIX going back without breaking the seals of the packaging never mind the box.

I went into this weekends 3 day shoot edging towards the 3 identical camera body approach, which I would prefer in principle, plus smaller, lighter, faster, newer has certain benefits, but…

The S1H is just too good a stills camera. Yes, stills.

It’s meant to be ‘The Video One’ but actually excels as a stills camera for shooting people and events because it’s that little bit less critically sharp than the others without The OLPF.

And then there is build, the ergos, the feel of the thing to use and the shutter sound is just sublime.

The S5ii by comparison feels and sounds tinny. 

So decision made. I can’t sell or not use the best camera I have ever used. At least not until a genuine replacement comes along. When or if that happens, but otherwise the S1H is being reconfigured in my line up as principal stills with occasional video and the S5ii’s becoming more video specific and less stills.

Same kit, just re-jiggled about a bit!

I think the gimbal is going though. Just not getting any real use out of it and the S5ii is pretty good in that department for my limited needs.

I really appreciate this post. I have an S1 and S5 for stills and video and recently was hired for a set of portraits, which I'd not done in quite a while. Doing that work again was a treat but I was stunned by the moiré I had to contend with. I asked each sitter to bring two outfits, but couldn't get around it with one sitter for either shirt. It really left me dampened about by kit's potential for portrait work.

I did try to investigate the S1H for photo work given its OLPF, but little to no commentary on that on the web - unsurprising since most S1H users are almost exclusively video shooters. I was also thinking about an S1H/S5II combo for hybrid work, with an emphasis on video, but that is still an investment given how little my current cameras are selling for used.

I've been holding out to see what the S1/S1H/S1R replacement might be, but I also rather doubt that machine will come with an OLPF.

How is the auto-focus with the S1H? I expect it must be similar to the S1 since firmware updating a year or so ago?

[MrSMW]

31 minutes ago, Walter H said:

How is the auto-focus with the S1H? I expect it must be similar to the S1 since firmware updating a year or so ago?

I’ve never had an S1 but have used extensively; S5, S5ii, S1R and S1H.

For video, all ‘good’.

For forward tracking, ie, someone walking towards you, depends on the lens, the settings and the aperture, but in 4K crop mode, f4/5.6/8, pretty good actually, but if it loses the subject, it’s game over.

Unless it really goes wrong like someone walks in the way, the S5ii is of course a lot more reliable than the non-PDAF models.

For stills, real world not a lot in it. I have shot thousands of frames at (each of) 45+ weddings with L Mount and it’s both fast and accurate.

If I was shooting sports, there are much better options such as Sony and Canon, but as long as we are not talking subjects charging around zig zagging, any of the S line are great but as above, IMO the S1H is the pick of the bunch for stills.

Not max detail commercial or studio work, (because that is the S1R’s forte) but for events and people, S1H for me on pretty much every level; size, weight, ergos, shutter damping, speed, results. Just superb.

Plus it’s superb for video as a secondary role 😉

Otherwise yes, also waiting to see what the next gen will be because there is something specific I am looking for…but that is another story.

[Walter H]

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

I’ve never had an S1 but have used extensively; S5, S5ii, S1R and S1H.

For video, all ‘good’.

For forward tracking, ie, someone walking towards you, depends on the lens, the settings and the aperture, but in 4K crop mode, f4/5.6/8, pretty good actually, but if it loses the subject, it’s game over.

Unless it really goes wrong like someone walks in the way, the S5ii is of course a lot more reliable than the non-PDAF models.

For stills, real world not a lot in it. I have shot thousands of frames at (each of) 45+ weddings with L Mount and it’s both fast and accurate.

If I was shooting sports, there are much better options such as Sony and Canon, but as long as we are not talking subjects charging around zig zagging, any of the S line are great but as above, IMO the S1H is the pick of the bunch for stills.

Not max detail commercial or studio work, but for events and people, S1H for me on pretty much every level; size, weight, ergos, shutter damping, speed, results. Just superb.

Plus it’s superb for video as a secondary role 😉

Otherwise yes, also waiting to see what the next gen will be because there is something specific I am looking for…but that is another story.

Yeah, great. Confirming. I've certainly not had issues in terms of stills AF with either the S1 or the S5. No fast-moving subjects, etc. And 2x YES for the S1 (and apparently S1H) mechanical shutter. Makes me quote loathe using the S5 for stills, which is still sounds appreciably better than Sony some others. 

[newfoundmass]

Stills with the S5 for action sports isn't too bad, actually. There are obviously better options and I wouldn't recommend it as a primary camera for that use, but it has a decent enough hit rate that it is okay in a pinch.

[MrSMW]

The thing with contrast detect AF is that it does tend to be slower than equivalent phase detect cameras, but not by that much other than in low light conditions but it does tend to be highly accurate.

When I first switched from Nikon DSLR, I was pretty horrified about the Fuji X Pro1’s lack of ability to lock on to anything that moved forwards or backwards.

First wedding, no processional or recessional shots in church because it just failed and err, I should never have trusted it that soon. Or at all.

The results I was getting…when it locked on however, along with various aspects including the colour science convinced me to keep using the system and future firmware improved things a bit, but after a few years, I do wish I’d waited for the next gen as just like when moved from film to digital in about 2005 (?) with the Nikon D200, it really was too soon.

But CDAF for the last 10 or so years has been pretty good and no real world difference to PDAF for stills other than on the most extreme situations.

 

 

 

 

 

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, Walter H said:

Makes me quote loathe using the S5 for stills, which is still sounds appreciably better than Sony some others

It’s borderline deal-breaker for me.

Some think the S5/II is great but to my ear it sounds loud, thin and cheap, but the entire S1H shutter mech is just sublime, from the damping/actuation through the sound and as someone who only uses mechanical shutter…

If the S5ii had this shutter mech, the S1H would have gone as it would have been just enough to warrant 3x S5ii’s.

But it doesn’t and at the price the S5ii is, can’t really expect it to.

[IronFilm]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:08 PM, kye said:

Indeed I do!  But seeing as I live in Australia, I tend to keep local hours 😉 

Australia doesn't exist. 

That's why it confused @MrSMWthat someone could be posting from that timezone. 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Australia doesn't exist. 

That's why it confused @MrSMWthat someone could be posting from that timezone. 

I knew it.

I went to Perth WA for an entire week once and it was just too quiet.

You could pull up for instance and park right outside a restaurant on a Friday evening without a problem.

There was a big movie being filmed around the same time elsewhere and they needed a lot of extras, so it makes sense now why the artificial city of Perth was so quiet.

My brother lives there now. Says he does but now I realise that is a lie. My own family lie to me. What is this world coming to?

Must dash, I have Aslan and Mr Tumnus coming round for breakfast shortly.

Conspiracy theorists 🤣

[seanzzxx]

Just to share a little personal story - the S5 II really restored my fun in shooting little personal video's. I shoot almost daily for work and I always swore by large cinema camera's. I'm one of those crazy people that thinks an Ursa mini is the perfect body shape. (part of this is copied from a Reddit comment I made earlier but I thought it would be interesting to share here).

For the longest time I was really torn up between having a kit that is able to capture what I consider to be professional quality and something that I actually would WANT to bring with me on a walk or a day out. I carried a little Pocket 4k (GREAT camera) with me, but by the time you rig that out to shoot comfortably with a monitor/filter holder/NDs/mic, you’re still carrying something that takes up most of your bag and it just sucked the fun out of it for me. On a job, no problem, for home video’s it just wasn’t worth it for me. I was really looking for something I could just pull out of a bag pack and shoot.

So then I bought a Canon R6, and honestly that camera’s video quality was such a massive step back from even the Pocket 4k that it just wasn’t worth it for me (esp. dynamic range but also the out of camera colors). Also just awful awful video assist tools on that camera.

The S5 II kinda hits all the marks for me: very small, good enough dynamic range, good colors, good monitoring tools and good AF (better than the R6 in my opinion) on my EF lenses. That last thing (combined with it being newer, so longer firmware support) pushed me over the edge when compared to the S1H by the way. I don’t mind pulling manual focus at all, but if I’m shooting on a 3 inch screen, the AF is really nice to have. Never felt like I could really trust it with the R6 but the S5 II has really really good autofocus.

Here's somethign small I shot with it:

 

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

Here's somethign small I shot with it

Nice. What lens did you use and is it log, the grade etc. We need to know this kind of stuff?!

[seanzzxx]

Thanks. Shot 4k log, Dehancer did most of the heavy lifting. Lens was a Sigma 18-35 with a 1/8 promist, mostly at 35mm. That lens actually ‘covers’ 16:9 full frame from around 25mm onwards, I really like the little abberations and falloff you get around the edges. So you basically end up with a nice, very sharp 25-35 1.8 with a lot of character.

[IronFilm]

21 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Must dash, I have Aslan and Mr Tumnus coming round for breakfast shortly.

You're working on the new Narnia films? 

https://www.indiewire.com/news/breaking-news/greta-gerwig-chronicles-of-narnia-netflix-1234880911/

I was a huge fan of the books as a kid, read all of them multiple times over. 

But I'm afraid these new Netflix films will be completely ruining them. Oh well. 

  

20 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

For the longest time I was really torn up between having a kit that is able to capture what I consider to be professional quality and something that I actually would WANT to bring with me on a walk or a day out. I carried a little Pocket 4k (GREAT camera) with me, but by the time you rig that out to shoot comfortably with a monitor/filter holder/NDs/mic, you’re still carrying something that takes up most of your bag and it just sucked the fun out of it for me. On a job, no problem, for home video’s it just wasn’t worth it for me. I was really looking for something I could just pull out of a bag pack and shoot.

So then I bought a Canon R6, and honestly that camera’s video quality was such a massive step back from even the Pocket 4k that it just wasn’t worth it for me (esp. dynamic range but also the out of camera colors). Also just awful awful video assist tools on that camera.

The S5 II kinda hits all the marks for me: very small, good enough dynamic range, good colors, good monitoring tools and good AF (better than the R6 in my opinion) on my EF lenses. That last thing (combined with it being newer, so longer firmware support) pushed me over the edge when compared to the S1H by the way. I don’t mind pulling manual focus at all, but if I’m shooting on a 3 inch screen, the AF is really nice to have. Never felt like I could really trust it with the R6 but the S5 II has really really good autofocus.

But no NDs for the S5mk2? How are you dealing with that? Quick clip on magnetic filters? 

[seanzzxx]

Yeah sorry, forgot about that. There’s a pretty decent inexpensive Freewell variable ND on there! That was never an option with the pocket because you’ll get awful IR pollution in that camera if you don’t use IR-cut NDs. 

[MrSMW]

Leica lens, inbound!

Musing recently (over many things), especially the announcement of Samyang joining the L Mount alliance and the potential of the 35-150mm (but would rather have the Tamron based on reviews) and my ‘wounded’ S5ii, I have had to come up with a solution for the next 50% of my annual workload which takes place over the next 8 weeks.

Dropping from 3 cameras to 2 whilst one is being fixed, is not an option.

Renting is out of the question.

Buying a potential non-L Mount camera was tempting but a bit too costly, especially as a camera is useless without lenses…and I only have L Mount lenses.

The only recent cameras I’d consider right now are; R3, Z9 and Z8 and a lot of 💰 

So I bought a used (excellent condition) Leica 24-90mm f2.8/4 from MBP UK at 40% of what the things cost new.

Why?

That itch needed scratching (this lens has been in and out of my shopping basket numerous times over the last couple of years), but more importantly, my non-AF functioning S5ii has meant my meagre lens options don’t work for my needs with the specific combo I own.

Now I can have a bit of a re-jiggle lens-wise and for those that are interested in such things:

Wounded S5ii gets the Sigma crop 18-50mm as a static plus sometimes gimbal unit. It’s video only and the AF just works in an auto sense so that’s fine and can go in to be fixed when my season ends.

The fully functioning S5ii gets the Sigma FF 28-70mm f2.8 and is my principal roving video unit. It was hybrid use. It’s now video dedicated.

The chonky boy (S1H with battery grip) gets the ‘new’ 24-90mm f2.8/4 for principally stills duty, all day long, but that lens gets flipped for the 70-200mm f4 for ceremonies & speeches and hybrid duty.

The slight irony however is the combo of S1H plus battery grip plus 70-200 was already 2.5kg and bordering on the offensive, but the 24-90 is even heavier 🤪

However, use-ability and image quality trumps size & weight (within reason) and that extra 20mm over a 24/28-70 really does take it into portait territory so is a big plus.

It won’t arrive for this weekends’ wedding, but other than the size & weight (a known quantity having the 70-200), I have a good feeling about this specific combo…

Yes, I’d prefer it to be more compact and lighter, but we’ll see and it HAS to be the last tweak for this year because I really need some consistency now for the next /remaining 20 or so days of shooting.

[deezid]

Shot this recently on the S5IIx in BRAW using the Sigma 28-70 F2.8 (and some DJI Mini 3 Pro drone shots).

 

Quite happy with the external output, 13 stops of measured DR without any noise reduction, no gamut clipping, no banding, no slow motion noise (no temporal filtering). 

[PannySVHS]

Looking pro, as expected from you. @deezidSo how does the S1H internal fare compared to this combo and to the Bmppc6k up to 30p? How would you rate it on general terms these days when it comes to cinema camera image quality. On a side note, I am still stunned by the internal Slog1 8bit 420 files from my Sony PMW F3, which were left on one of the cards by the seller.

How would you rate this combo compared to the competition (S5iix + Braw)?

Is Braw on the S1H giving any worthwhile jump in image quality compared to its internal All Intra and VLog?

cheers and thanks 😊

[kye]

11 hours ago, deezid said:

Shot this recently on the S5IIx in BRAW using the Sigma 28-70 F2.8 (and some DJI Mini 3 Pro drone shots).

 

Quite happy with the external output, 13 stops of measured DR without any noise reduction, no gamut clipping, no banding, no slow motion noise (no temporal filtering). 

Nice work!

No video-ish look at all (I've become super-sensitive to this recently), great edit with cool subtle little moments, and nice colour grade 🙂