Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[John Matthews]

Here's another video on the firmware that should be coming out within the next few hours:

 

[ac6000cw]

...and another one (I quite like his style, plus he's a Panasonic micro43 and Sony user as well):

 

[Al Dolega]

Update is live:

https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/ff/dl/s5m2x.html

[John Matthews]

I successfully upgraded my S5ii to v3.0. It's going to take some testing, but the EOIS High seems great on wider focal lengths. I'm not too convinced on the telephoto side.

[John Matthews]

One "issue" I'm seeing with proxies is it caries the 4 channels of audio is you're shooting MOV and you choose the highest and medium quality proxy. That's probably the behavior you'd want, but I'd really like to have some sort of option. The only way to get 2 channels (L and R) in the proxy is to record in the MP4 option or you go to the 720p proxy (H.264).

In terms of file size, proxies are often less than 10% of the "keeper" file- huge savings. Now, I need to figure out the best to use them in Final Cut Pro. I imagine you could put the bigger files on a much cheaper storage option and just edit with the proxies.

Another cool thing is to apply the Realtime LUT to only proxies and leave the original as vanilla V-LOG, much like a RAW + JPEG photo workflow.

[Al Dolega]

I wish you could do dual recording + proxies. Doesn't seem like it would be a huge additional load on the cards as the proxies are only a few mbps.

[zerocool22]

What is your best monitoring LUT for V-log on the S5II. Have tried a bunch, but not yet found the sweet spot. 

Thanks!

[kye]

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

In terms of file size, proxies are often less than 10% of the "keeper" file- huge savings. Now, I need to figure out the best to use them in Final Cut Pro. I imagine you could put the bigger files on a much cheaper storage option and just edit with the proxies.

You'd have to try it, as there are a number of factors that impact the drive speed required for editing, the distance between key-frames being a pretty critical one.

If they've done a good job then it could work off a cheaper drive.  Of course, if you're anything like me then you've got an older SSD that's too small spare, so with the reduced file sizes then you could put them on an older drive and work from there.

[ac6000cw]

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

One "issue" I'm seeing with proxies is it caries the 4 channels of audio is you're shooting MOV and you choose the highest and medium quality proxy. That's probably the behavior you'd want, but I'd really like to have some sort of option. The only way to get 2 channels (L and R) in the proxy is to record in the MP4 option or you go to the 720p proxy (H.264).

In terms of file size, proxies are often less than 10% of the "keeper" file- huge savings. Now, I need to figure out the best to use them in Final Cut Pro. I imagine you could put the bigger files on a much cheaper storage option and just edit with the proxies.

Another cool thing is to apply the Realtime LUT to only proxies and leave the original as vanilla V-LOG, much like a RAW + JPEG photo workflow.

I don't own the camera, but looking at the updated manual the 'H' proxy file HEVC bitrate looks quite reasonable at 16Mbps for 60p/50p and 12Mbps for 30p and below - roughly equivalent to the 8-bit FHD AVC mp4 bitrates of 28 and 20Mbps. It would be interesting to know how the quality of the 'H' proxies - when recording 'main' 4k - compares to 'main' FHD recordings at equivalent bitrates e.g. is it doing high quality down-sampling from the 4k stream for the proxies?

Another short YT review of the latest firmware (from someone who is primarily a wildlife photographer using a Z9, but also uses an S5iix primarily for video):

 

[John Matthews]

6 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I don't own the camera, but looking at the updated manual the 'H' proxy file HEVC bitrate looks quite reasonable at 16Mbps for 60p/50p and 12Mbps for 30p and below - roughly equivalent to the 8-bit FHD AVC mp4 bitrates of 28 and 20Mbps. It would be interesting to know how the quality of the 'H' proxies - when recording 'main' 4k - compares to 'main' FHD recordings at equivalent bitrates e.g. is it doing high quality down-sampling from the 4k stream for the proxies?

My feeling is that H quality would be better than the lowest available bitrate in the camera (20mbps H.264 8bit) as it's 12mbps H.265 AND 10bit. I think the compression is about the same but with more color information. I haven't really tried the M quality- the compression seems massive in that though. It would probably depend on the scene. The quality of the H Proxy really looks quite acceptable. The L quality was a huge step down though. I'll need to try the M setting tomorrow.

Concerning the EOIS at the wide lenses and vlogging style videos, it seems rather unnatural (as the video above indicated). Sure, it the background looks stable, but the subject seems to bounce around everywhere like a pinball. I think it's probably better as a traditional gimbal replacement where the camera's a little further from the subject and the operator is carefully walking. I have the Panasonic 70-300mm lens and it has great Dual IS 2. I haven't really noticed an improvement to already one of the most stable setups on the market. In face, I'd say the EOIS interferes with the OIS of the lens. Again, I need more testing.

[ac6000cw]

15 hours ago, John Matthews said:

My feeling is that H quality would be better than the lowest available bitrate in the camera (20mbps H.264 8bit) as it's 12mbps H.265 AND 10bit. I think the compression is about the same but with more color information. I haven't really tried the M quality- the compression seems massive in that though. It would probably depend on the scene. The quality of the H Proxy really looks quite acceptable. The L quality was a huge step down though. I'll need to try the M setting tomorrow.

Thanks for the info.

15 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I have the Panasonic 70-300mm lens and it has great Dual IS 2. I haven't really noticed an improvement to already one of the most stable setups on the market. In face, I'd say the EOIS interferes with the OIS of the lens. Again, I need more testing.

Robert May also commented in his video that it didn't seem to improve long telephoto stabilisation. Not that surprised as OIS in the lens can be as or more effective than IBIS and/or EIS at long focal lengths, at least for pitch and yaw.

Now that the enhanced EIS is out in the wild, doubtless Panasonic will be getting lots of feedback, so there may be performance improvements to it in the future. For the vlogging situation, it sounds like it needs to be made a bit more 'floaty'.

[John Matthews]

39 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Now that the enhanced EIS is out in the wild, doubtless Panasonic will be getting lots of feedback, so there may be performance improvements to it in the future. For the vlogging situation, it sounds like it needs to be made a bit more 'floaty'.

I think there's a fine line between making stabilization appear natural. I think the gold standard will continue to be gimbals and steadicams with experienced operators. The "pinball" vlogging effect is also apparent on GoPros and such and I think most people don't notice that much. Again, if you're operating the camera and filming others, you don't notice and it looks amazing, like no other FF camera.

[ac6000cw]

5 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I think there's a fine line between making stabilization appear natural.

Definitely - it's why I like the way Olympus/OMDS IBIS operates on the OM-1 & E-M1 iii. When I use proDAD Mercalli for stabilisation in post I usually choose the 'Glide Cam' option, which gives a floatier feel with lower warping artefacts (and less cropping) than the default 'Universal Cam' setting.

[kye]

Can you dial in the amount of it?  It might be good if used at a lower strength perhaps.

One look that I quite like is when a GoPro or action camera is mounted to an off-road vehicle but has the stabilisation on and the image ends up being neither locked to the vehicle or locked to the scene but is somewhere in-between.  I like the look because it is sort-of like how you experience very bumpy rides - you stabilise with your body and head but not perfectly.  The fact it's moving and responding to the bumps against the vehicle also makes it look like there's a good human camera op too, which makes it look less artificial than if it was locked onto something in the shot.

[John Matthews]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Can you dial in the amount of it?  It might be good if used at a lower strength perhaps.

It's only "Standard" with a 1.09 crop or "High" with a 1.43 crop. There's no adjustment for the behavior, thank god. There are already so many things to adjust on this camera that trying to figure out the perfect stabilization to use on a given shot would be like trying to figure out which picture profile setting on a Sony camera works best- paralysis by analysis. I'm trying to simplify these days as it shouldn't be that hard... I might even go back to iMovie, seriously!

[MrSMW]

I have mine set up really simply using C1, C2, C3...but then I am a simple guy 😜

C1 = 4k 50p, Log, WB 5500, auto ISO (+ 2-5 or 6-9 VND inc. 1/8th mist) IBIS + EIS (my 'outdoor daytime setting)

C2 = 4k 50p, Log, WB 4500, auto ISO (+ 2-5 VND inc. 1/8th mist) IBIS + EIS (my 'indoor daytime setting)

C3 = 4k 50p, Flat, WB 3500, auto ISO (+ 1/8th mist) IBIS + EIS (my 'near to or after dark setting)

For the couple of occasions I briefly stick my S5ii on a tripod which is a couple of times at every job, I do not bother switching off the stabilisation as I'd probably only forget to turn it on again.

The above just works for my run & gun workflow with this unit (Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 glued to it and in S35 mode, equiv to 42-105mm which is a perfect focal length to me) as I do not move in an out of these scenarios, but typically transition from one to another.

The only thing I am not sure of is if enabling the EIS adds a further crop to the 4k 50p 1.5x?

If it does, I might switch to the Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 for my 'C3' setting as the '42mm'+ of the bigger (but still compact) zoom might be a but tight for some of my needs.

Unless anyone knows, I guess I will have to download the firmware and find out for myself...

[John Matthews]

14 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

The only thing I am not sure of is if enabling the EIS adds a further crop to the 4k 50p 1.5x?

According to this video I saw a few days ago, the APS-C 4k 50fps with EOIS High enabled gives a whopping 2.08x crop; a 24mm becomes about a 50mm in terms of field of view. Maybe I'm wrong, but the S5/ii/x doesn't seem to be the best camera for 50fps shooting.

It should also be noted that the video compares the full resolution 4k/6k to the 12mbps HEVC files and I'll be damed if I can tell the difference on my M1 iMac in full screen Youtube mode (4.5K). I've even played around with the 6mbps files and they didn't seem that degraded. I even tried doing some simple edits on my 2020 Intel Macbook Air i3 and it whipped right through them. The grade wasn't that heavy, but still. I think the Intel Air i3 must have some sort of hardware for that though.

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I think the Intel Air i3 must have some sort of hardware for that though.

AFAIK, the GPU in the 'Ice Lake' CPUs has hardware decoding for up to 10-bit 4:2:0 HEVC i.e. 'Main 10' profile, assuming you have a Retina MacBook Air - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air_(Intel-based)#Retina_(2018–2020)

Any higher HEVC profile e.g. 10-bit 4:2:2 has to use software decoding on those machines.

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

It should also be noted that the video compares the full resolution 4k/6k to the 12mbps HEVC files and I'll be damed if I can tell the difference on my M1 iMac in full screen Youtube mode (4.5K). I've even played around with the 6mbps files and they didn't seem that degraded.

Not surprised.

I often upload stuff to YouTube as 4k 50p using HEVC at 15-30 Mbps (using 'constant quality factor' encoding). I used to use higher bitrates, but decided it wasn't worth the extra storage space/upload time. HEVC is generally a very efficient (quality versus bitrate) compression codec.

[John Matthews]

3 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Any higher HEVC profile e.g. 10-bit 4:2:2 has to use software decoding on those machines.

This would also explain why Panasonic doesn't offer any 4:2:2 in H.265, only H.264. I think when the Canon R5 came out, many were complaining how uneditable the footage was because it used H.265 and 4:2:2. With the S5ii, I think Panasonic wanted to avoid that.

They really seem to be paying attention to professionals. Are you interested in the Frame.IO feature?

9 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I often upload stuff to YouTube as 4k 50p using HEVC at 15-30 Mbps (using 'constant quality factor' encoding). I used to use higher bitrates, but decided it wasn't worth the extra storage space/upload time. HEVC is generally a very efficient (quality versus bitrate) compression codec.

You can tell a difference if you pixel-peep to 200-600% and A/B the images. I've also noticed a slight color shift too. There are also a few artefacts, but it's still 5.9k downsampled to 1080p 10 bit- not bad. If you slap on a touch of sharpening, no normal view could tell the difference and you have something that would be 5% the size of a 6k image.

Thinking of the crop, I think the more interesting EOIS setting is 25fps FF with the 1.43x crop and that 10-18 Sigma. That's the one I'd like to try.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

According to this video I saw a few days ago, the APS-C 4k 50fps with EOIS High enabled gives a whopping 2.08x crop; a 24mm becomes about a 50mm in terms of field of view. Maybe I'm wrong, but the S5/ii/x doesn't seem to be the best camera for 50fps shooting.

Well if that is the case, it’s maybe a little too extreme even for me…but maybe not…

My 28-70 will become a 58- (classic focal length!) 145mm (a focal length that has probably never existed, but who cares).

Outdoors, no problem.

Indoors, hmm…

The 18-50 crop lens is going to become more like a 37-104mm which might be better.

Or there’s always 6k 30p open gate with just the EIS crop but max 80% slow mo which might work…

I’ll have to play…