Can't make decent HDR grade from Panasonic S1 V-Log. What am I doing wrong?

[Owlgreen]

4 minutes ago, Alexis Fontana said:

Not trying to troll at all. I’m coming from a background of being a working cinematographer represented by a very decent agency, shooting commercials around the world and just had my first feature premiere at TriBeCa last year. I’m trying my best to understand why you feel it is a necessity and also hint in a non-demeaning way that you’re putting your focus in all the wrong places. But hey man - you do you. Looking forward to seeing your kitchen film👍

My guy, I'm sure your mother is very proud of you. Sadly, she didn't teach you any manners. 

You have contributed nothing to this thread. Have you ever even shot with this camera? Based on your completely generic suggestions, I suspect not. Your condescenion is unwarranted. Please leave.

[mercer]

5 hours ago, Alexis Fontana said:

That’s kind of a big compromise - don’t you think? Mitigating a colour fidelity issue by removing colours is hardly optimal. 

I think you may have read too much into my suggestion... I was merely stating that a simple turn to B&W could eliminate chroma values as a possible reason for the OP's issues. I never intended to suggest for him to deliver all of his footage from the S1 as B&W.

[PPNS]

14 hours ago, Owlgreen said:

You have contributed nothing to this thread. Have you ever even shot with this camera? Based on your completely generic suggestions, I suspect not. Your condescenion is unwarranted. Please leave.

Have you maybe considered that maybe people aren’t trolling you and are trying to give you helpful advice? I can maybe understand that you dont like my nor AF’s tone, but consider the points raised in this thread:

- i asked you why you needed to grade in hdr, and this was a genuine question. I dont know anyone in my professional environment who does this, and i am curious. What would a broader gamut help you achieve that you cant with 709?

- you’ve explained that you want to shoot open gate out of preference, but you dont actually have a justifiable reason, other than using some cheap theoretical anamorphic lens that would give another theoretical result. you can still shoot 4:3 by cropping the sensor and you will get the extra color information you need. 4:2:2 will give you the bare minimum for working with video imo.

- can you actually explain why you think using a smaller format is inherently worse? Because in your case it would genuinely only give you better results. Have you realised your sensor cropped to 16:9 is already too big for most anamorphic lenses made throughout history already? i attached some screenshots to more clearly illustrate my point.

- by responding this way to criticism, falling for cheap marketing gimmicks (hdr, full frame, cheap anamorphics, open gate, netflix approval, etc.), not understanding that any 4:2:0 codec is worth nobody’s effort, and then not having a particularly good looking test image to show your point, it kind of makes it easy to assume that you’re not very sure of what you’re doing. i agree with Alexis Fontana here, I think you should start refocusing on the things that actually matter in the field of making moving images.

genuinely man, good luck.

 

 

 

 

[Owlgreen]

20 hours ago, mercer said:

If it's a 4:20 vs. 4:22 issue, then you could desaturate the footage you already shot and the artifacts should disappear.

Thanks, Mercer.

I've tested the internal 422 codecs and the color banding is there as well. Shooting ISO 4000 instead of 640 hides the issue in noise to a pretty acceptable degree. 

[Owlgreen]

18 minutes ago, PPNS said:

Have you maybe considered that maybe people aren’t trolling you and are trying to give you helpful advice? I can maybe understand that you dont like my nor AF’s tone, but consider the points raised in this thread:

- i asked you why you needed to grade in hdr, and this was a genuine question. I dont know anyone in my professional environment who does this, and i am curious. What would a broader gamut help you achieve that you cant with 709?

- you’ve explained that you want to shoot open gate out of preference, but you dont actually have a justifiable reason, other than using some cheap theoretical anamorphic lens that would give another theoretical result. you can still shoot 4:3 by cropping the sensor and you will get the extra color information you need. 4:2:2 will give you the bare minimum for working with video imo.

- can you actually explain why you think using a smaller format is inherently worse? Because in your case it would genuinely only give you better results. Have you realised your sensor cropped to 16:9 is already too big for most anamorphic lenses made throughout history already? i attached some screenshots to more clearly illustrate my point.

- by responding this way to criticism, falling for cheap marketing gimmicks (hdr, full frame, cheap anamorphics, open gate, netflix approval, etc.), not understanding that any 4:2:0 codec is worth nobody’s effort, and then not having a particularly good looking test image to show your point, it kind of makes it easy to assume that you’re not very sure of what you’re doing. i agree with Alexis Fontana here, I think you should start refocusing on the things that actually matter in the field of making moving images.

genuinely man, good luck.

 

 

 

 

😂 Jesus fucking Christ! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have never even shot with this camera! 

What the fuck is with this gear-shaming, chroma-shaming, gamut shaming? 

You come across as a giant asshole.

I'm doing an experiment. I want to shoot open gate V-Log 6k on the S1 and I want to grade in ACES for PQ output. It has nothing to do with professional standards. You have no experience with the specifics of this premise, so your supposed advice offers nothing!

If I want to shoot full frame 16:9, I can and will shoot the fp.

Why not just jump into every thread and tell people to shoot an Alexa? Then they will be serious! 

Unfuckingreal.

[PPNS]

15 minutes ago, Owlgreen said:

😂 Jesus fucking Christ! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have never even shot with this camera! 

What the fuck is with this gear-shaming, chroma-shaming, gamut shaming? 

You come across as a giant asshole.

I'm doing an experiment. I want to shoot open gate V-Log 6k on the S1 and I want to grade in ACES for PQ output. It has nothing to do with professional standards. You have no experience with the specifics of this premise, so your supposed advice offers nothing!

If I want to shoot full frame 16:9, I can and will shoot the fp.

Why not just jump into every thread and tell people to shoot an Alexa? Then they will be serious! 

Unfuckingreal.

if someone forced me to use a photo camera for video, i would probably choose to shoot with the 4:2:2 codec.

is it shaming? Or is it trying to tell you that you couldve saved yourself a bunch of time?

i was not talking about professional standards, i was saying that no one i know who works in video cares about hdr. I was curious why you did.

if people had such unrealistic expectations as you with niche features their only options are the alexa lfs and the kinefinity cameras lol. Luckily most people are pretty normal.

[Owlgreen]

 

16 minutes ago, PPNS said:

if someone forced me to use a photo camera for video, i would probably choose to shoot with the 4:2:2 codec.

is it shaming? Or is it trying to tell you that you couldve saved yourself a bunch of time?

i was not talking about professional standards, i was saying that no one i know who works in video cares about hdr. I was curious why you did.

if people had such unrealistic expectations as you with niche features their only options are the alexa lfs and the kinefinity cameras lol. Luckily most people are pretty normal.

Again with the gear shaming! Can you read the name of this website? No one is forcing you to shoot video with a photo camera. My god, only peasants do that! Why are even here, since you think you are too good for this place? Neither is anyone forcing you to butt into threads you have knowledge about. Thanks for nothing Mr. Very Serious Cinematographer person! 👍

[PPNS]

my camera is cheaper than yours and nothing i own can display hdr as far as i know.

[PannySVHS]

You could give HLG a try. Would it be displayed technically correct already on an HDR display just like an 709 profile would be on a SDR one? Maybe try both 422 and 420 and see if it does any good. Btw, I get both of your points and find them both equally worthwhile. No need to get unkind towards eachother about it imho.

[Owlgreen]

1 hour ago, Owlgreen said:

 

Again with the gear shaming! Can you read the name of this website? No one is forcing you to shoot video with a photo camera. My god, only peasants do that! Why are even here, since you think you are too good for this place? Neither is anyone forcing you to butt into threads you have knowledge about. Thanks for nothing Mr. Very Serious Cinematographer person! 👍

I meant to write, "Neither is anyone forcing you to butt into threads you have no knowledge about."

 

28 minutes ago, PPNS said:

my camera is cheaper than yours and nothing i own can display hdr as far as i know.

My apologies, I missed the memo that since you don't have a way to view HDR then none of us should talk about it. Must be nice to have the universe revolve around yourself.

[Owlgreen]

28 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

You could give HLG a try. Would it be displayed technically correct already on an HDR display just like an 709 profile would be on a SDR one? Maybe try both 422 and 420 and see if it does any good. Btw, I get both of your points and find them both equally worthwhile. No need to get unkind towards eachother about it imho.

Sadly, HLG clips the highlights a lot earlier than V-Log. Problematically so. Both 422 and 420 internally recorded codecs show the issue. The 422 codecs are also lower bandwidth (150mbps vs 200mbps) and h.264 instead of h.265. I'll try writing Panasonic support and see what they think. Maybe the V35 input transform is technically "incorrect" for the S1 V-Log.

[Owlgreen]

Interesting note in the S1H 2.0 firmware update from a while back:

"There were cases where color banding appeared in 4:2:0/10-bit video recording in some situations. This bug has been minimized."

There's no such note in the S1 firmware updates. 

[markr041]

HDR is great!

Rec709 has very limited dynamic range. HDR gives you the dynamic range that these newer sensors with log gammas can capture. What is the point of having 14 stops of dynamic range if you can only see 5-6 stops?

Most newer TVs are capable of displaying HDR video, most top-end cell phones do so as well (on OLED screens!). Anyone who does not have a device that can display HDR video is simply using old or cheap equipment.  If you are serious about video, you need to step up (and it is not expensive).

And many of not all of original serials or movies produced by Prime Video, Netflix or AppleTV+ are HDR.

Anyone who claims they do not know anyone professionally shooting film or video who delivers in HDR is just telling us he or she is in the second, third, or fourth tier of professionals. Which is an odd place for snobs to inhabit.

Producing HDR video is hard, but it is worth it.

[PannySVHS]

8 hours ago, Owlgreen said:

Sadly, HLG clips the highlights a lot earlier than V-Log. Problematically so. Both 422 and 420 internally recorded codecs show the issue. The 422 codecs are also lower bandwidth (150mbps vs 200mbps) and h.264 instead of h.265. I'll try writing Panasonic support and see what they think. Maybe the V35 input transform is technically "incorrect" for the S1 V-Log.

My last idea regarding the artefact. 4K 422 codec has less pixel count to carry, around 8MP vs around 24MP for one. This specific variante of 150mbit usually punches above its weight. 8MP resolution in 422 and HLG might cure the digital artefact. Maybe the h265 open gate variante does the same in HLG. Nuff said from my side on this artefact. Would test it myself, but not interested at the moment in doing so. Dynamic range in HLG though a bit less than VLog is no slouch, just a very different curve. HLG on the GH5 was about the same as VLog L. Sage had a nice conversion lut for the Gh5, transforming HLG to VLog L. He also offers some awesome conversion luts to Arri colour science. @Sage cheers

[Owlgreen]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:54 PM, Michael S said:

If I remember correctly, the S1H has a -1 setting for noise reduction in vlog which disables all noise reduction, so yes, zero should mean some noise reduction is still active. And all these codecs are optimized to discard visually imperceptible detail. I'm sure Panasonic tuned these codecs to the best of their ability but when you are shooting in a very flat profile, some detail might be classified as "visually imperceptible" and get discarded even though after adding contrast, the detail wouldn't be so imperceptible anymore, and now you've got these flat, featureless (chroma) surfaces in your video.

I remember reading in some forum years ago that at some point a new camera from Canon was giving such clean images that banding acros an even gradient like a sky became vary apparent in the 8bit rec709 recording. The solution was to add a bit of gain while recording to hide it. So this became common practice with that camera.

Michael, thank you, I think you pretty much pinpointed the cause, and at least somewhat of a solution, to the pink macroblocks. 

Noise reduction can't be turned off, so it needs to be sort of overwhelmed so as not to produce big uninterrupted pink puddles. Shooting ISO 4000 breaks up the pink so it is more tolerable. It's still there, but less noticeable. The pink macroblocking is also there in rec.709, it just moves to different parts of the picture relative to rec.2020 PQ. It's also there in the internal 422 codecs. I also captured some frames from the live HDMI feed of the camera into a Blackmagic Intensity card as Quicktime uncompressed 10-bit RGB files. The pink is still there. Maybe it's more correct to call it color banding, but the pink is its most noticeable hallmark.  

Having the NR:-1 option would be nice. That alone is probably worth the extra grand that the S1H costs.

Shooting ISO 4000, I'm okay with the S1 V-Log open-gate image. It has flaws, but I can live with them. I like having a full frame open-gate tool. If it turns out there's a bug, and a firmware update eliminates the pink/color banding altogether, I'll be even happier. 

 

 

 

[Owlgreen]

 

14 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

My last idea regarding the artefact. 4K 422 codec has less pixel count to carry, around 8MP vs around 24MP for one. This specific variante of 150mbit usually punches above its weight. 8MP resolution in 422 and HLG might cure the digital artefact. Maybe the h265 open gate variante does the same in HLG. Nuff said from my side on this artefact. Would test it myself, but not interested at the moment in doing so. Dynamic range in HLG though a bit less than VLog is no slouch, just a very different curve. HLG on the GH5 was about the same as VLog L. Sage had a nice conversion lut for the Gh5, transforming HLG to VLog L. He also offers some awesome conversion luts to Arri colour science. @Sage cheers

Thanks, Panny, I will keep this in mind.

[Alexis Fontana]

On 12/28/2022 at 8:13 PM, Owlgreen said:

My guy, I'm sure your mother is very proud of you. Sadly, she didn't teach you any manners. 

You have contributed nothing to this thread. Have you ever even shot with this camera? Based on your completely generic suggestions, I suspect not. Your condescenion is unwarranted. Please leave.

 

On 12/29/2022 at 11:58 AM, Owlgreen said:

😂 Jesus fucking Christ! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have never even shot with this camera! 

What the fuck is with this gear-shaming, chroma-shaming, gamut shaming? 

You come across as a giant asshole.

I'm doing an experiment. I want to shoot open gate V-Log 6k on the S1 and I want to grade in ACES for PQ output. It has nothing to do with professional standards. You have no experience with the specifics of this premise, so your supposed advice offers nothing!

If I want to shoot full frame 16:9, I can and will shoot the fp.

Why not just jump into every thread and tell people to shoot an Alexa? Then they will be serious! 

Unfuckingreal.

 

On 12/29/2022 at 12:34 PM, Owlgreen said:

 

Again with the gear shaming! Can you read the name of this website? No one is forcing you to shoot video with a photo camera. My god, only peasants do that! Why are even here, since you think you are too good for this place? Neither is anyone forcing you to butt into threads you have knowledge about. Thanks for nothing Mr. Very Serious Cinematographer person! 👍

My last advice to you, I promise:

sell your camera and write a book on how to alienate people. You sad little man. 

[Owlgreen]

6 hours ago, Alexis Fontana said:

My last advice to you, I promise:

sell your camera and write a book on how to alienate people. You sad little man. 

😂 

I don't suffer fools.

[Owlgreen]

18 hours ago, Alexis Fontana said:

 

 

My last advice to you, I promise:

sell your camera and write a book on how to alienate people. You sad little man. 

Do me a favor and read the whole thread back. 

I asked a technical question specific to one specific mode of one specific camera.

Many people offer pertinent, useful information. I am very thankful to them, and they've helped me to mitigate the issue.

You and one other guy, both of whom have never shot with the camera, come in and offer no pertinent, useful information whatsoever. You just say a bunch of condescending shit, call me uninformed and unserious, brag awkwardly, and say I shouldn't use the camera in the specific mode I am interested in. 

I never asked if I should or shouldn't use the camera or that mode. I don't care what what you or anyone else thinks on that question. 

I like lots of cameras for different reasons. They all have their own peculiarities and charms. 

I think 8-bit cameras can be great.

I think the PXL2000 is gorgeous.

I love Super-8.

I adore the F35.

The GFX100 looks like a blast to shoot with.

The S1/S1H have a ~36x24mm mode. This is unusual and interesting. Charming. I want to be able to use it from time to time. Not for everything, but sometimes. 

You and the other guy made a big deal out of the colorsampling in that mode being 4:2:0 rather than 4:2:2. That only a fool would shoot something with 420 chroma. The 422 modes in this camera are 4k. That means a 6k 420 file has more color samples than any of the 422 modes. 

But that doesn't matter. You came in with zero pertinent information and zero respect, so I gave you none back. 

I asked a technical question and you and the other guy responded with patronizing opinions. AKA bullshit.

Your opinions are worthless to me, so keep them to yourself. 

To everyone else reading this, thank you for your advice and input. For a long time I've felt this board was a special place. One where massive egos don't dominate the way they often do in motion picture contexts, but rather information, knowledge and curiosity does. I still feel this way. 

 

[Alexis Fontana]

1 hour ago, Owlgreen said:

Do me a favor and read the whole thread back. 

I asked a technical question specific to one specific mode of one specific camera.

Many people offer pertinent, useful information. I am very thankful to them, and they've helped me to mitigate the issue.

You and one other guy, both of whom have never shot with the camera, come in and offer no pertinent, useful information whatsoever. You just say a bunch of condescending shit, call me uninformed and unserious, brag awkwardly, and say I shouldn't use the camera in the specific mode I am interested in. 

I never asked if I should or shouldn't use the camera or that mode. I don't care what what you or anyone else thinks on that question. 

I like lots of cameras for different reasons. They all have their own peculiarities and charms. 

I think 8-bit cameras can be great.

I think the PXL2000 is gorgeous.

I love Super-8.

I adore the F35.

The GFX100 looks like a blast to shoot with.

The S1/S1H have a ~36x24mm mode. This is unusual and interesting. Charming. I want to be able to use it from time to time. Not for everything, but sometimes. 

You and the other guy made a big deal out of the colorsampling in that mode being 4:2:0 rather than 4:2:2. That only a fool would shoot something with 420 chroma. The 422 modes in this camera are 4k. That means a 6k 420 file has more color samples than any of the 422 modes. 

But that doesn't matter. You came in with zero pertinent information and zero respect, so I gave you none back. 

I asked a technical question and you and the other guy responded with patronizing opinions. AKA bullshit.

Your opinions are worthless to me, so keep them to yourself. 

To everyone else reading this, thank you for your advice and input. For a long time I've felt this board was a special place. One where massive egos don't dominate the way they often do in motion picture contexts, but rather information, knowledge and curiosity does. I still feel this way. 

 

I that case I have no interest in a conversation with you, I really don’t care about those kind of ridiculous technical obsessions. I know how to light and frame and do - you know - cinematography work.

 

To anyone interested in why HDR is a waste of time - go read this very informative Twitter thread.