GoPro Hero 11 is approaching Cinema Camera Standards with New Updates

[markr041]

First, the Flat profile is indeed a log profile, and the gamma can be adjusted in the camera. And 10bit colors was available at the start even in 5.3K 60p. In Linear mode, there is hardly any fisheye, and at 5.3K resolution there is plenty of detail for 4K despite the crop.

But now with GoPro Labs firmware:

1. You can up the bitrate to 200 Mbps (HEVC, 10bit).

2. You can now shoot 4K 120p in 10bit (newest firmware).

3. You can turn off noise reduction - and you get visibly more detail, and any noise is actually very fine.

5.3K using 2.35:1 crop (10bit, Flat, Linear, extended color gamut (Native), 180 Mbps HEVC):

4K 120P 10bit, Flat, 180Mbps:

 

[Amazeballs]

Sounds promising, gonna test it out today. I really like DR on GoPro11. They use dynamic tone mapping or some sort of real-time HDR tech like iPhone which gives their not so huge sensor a lot of DR and detail already. Would love to see what those new updates will bring to the table. 

[Amazeballs]

Figured out how to use Gopro Labs, took me a while 🙂

Turning noise reduction off is really a game changer, but do you really need to increase bitrate that much? Isnt High option not enough by itself? Have you noticed any visible difference for say 5k30p footage? Or 5k60p footage?

[androidlad]

400Mbps All-I codec would be nice. And option to completely turn off sharpening.

[markr041]

2 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Figured out how to use Gopro Labs, took me a while 🙂

Turning noise reduction off is really a game changer, but do you really need to increase bitrate that much? Isnt High option not enough by itself? Have you noticed any visible difference for say 5k30p footage? Or 5k60p footage?

For the static clips with no movement of camera or subject the camera upped the bitrate from 163 to 167 Mbps when NR was turned off. The greater detail and noise (random movements) need more bits, and if there is detail movement, well.... It is easy to increase the bitrate in the Labs firmware. 180 Mbps (up from the default 120 Mbps) works fine with the Sandisk Extreme V30 card included for free with the Hero 11 from GoPro. And of course that works for larger capacities. 180 Mbps is just the max, the camera uses variable bitrate so most of the time the bitrate is less. like for the static shots.

Forget, however, 400 Mbps All-I - the max bitrate anyone has obtained is 180 Mbps.

[herein2020]

On 12/24/2022 at 12:36 PM, markr041 said:

First, the Flat profile is indeed a log profile, and the gamma can be adjusted in the camera. And 10bit colors was available at the start even in 5.3K 60p. In Linear mode, there is hardly any fisheye, and at 5.3K resolution there is plenty of detail for 4K despite the crop.

But now with GoPro Labs firmware:

1. You can up the bitrate to 200 Mbps (HEVC, 10bit).

2. You can now shoot 4K 120p in 10bit (newest firmware).

3. You can turn off noise reduction - and you get visibly more detail, and any noise is actually very fine.

5.3K using 2.35:1 crop (10bit, Flat, Linear, extended color gamut (Native), 180 Mbps HEVC):

4K 120P 10bit, Flat, 180Mbps:

 

 

On paper sure its specs are not bad. But to me in reality the colors are very muddy, details are not sharp, and anything short of daylight lighting is a disaster.

Due to its sensor size, unless there is some major breakthrough, GoPro will always be best at one thing; going places no other camera can. I love my Hero8, its my go to action camera and underwater camera, but I also know it has severe sensor limitations that no codecs, data rates, or log curves will fix.

[markr041]

21 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

On paper sure its specs are not bad. But to me in reality the colors are very muddy, details are not sharp, and anything short of daylight lighting is a disaster.

Due to its sensor size, unless there is some major breakthrough, GoPro will always be best at one thing; going places no other camera can. I love my Hero8, its my go to action camera and underwater camera, but I also know it has severe sensor limitations that no codecs, data rates, or log curves will fix.

I don't see what you see. And I certainly see a big difference in dynamic range, color fidelity, and resolution between the Hero 8 and Hero 11. I think you need to re-evaluate. There have been major advances in processing video in just a few years, allowing small sensors to produce high quality video, new cell phones included. I shoot 8K RAW video too, and I find the Hero 11 capability impressive visually. And you forgot the stabilization ability that has no peers.

[herein2020]

54 minutes ago, markr041 said:

I don't see what you see. And I certainly see a big difference in dynamic range, color fidelity, and resolution between the Hero 8 and Hero 11. I think you need to re-evaluate. There have been major advances in processing video in just a few years, allowing small sensors to produce high quality video, new cell phones included. I shoot 8K RAW video too, and I find the Hero 11 capability impressive visually. And you forgot the stabilization ability that has no peers.

I am far from a pixel peeper but my opinion will not change, I checked the samples in your post and I still see it; there's still a muddy muted overall look and feel to everything the GoPros and other small sensors currently produce. 

I see the same thing out of my drone camera when compared to my other cameras and it has a 1" 20MP sensor. 4K/6K/8K, 10bit, etc. doesn't really matter when the sensor and or sensor/lens combination is producing muddy footage. To me the video out of these cameras including the GoPro 11 look like they were shot through a dirty glass window or mirror.  I can reproduce the look by using one of my regular cameras and film a subject reflected in a mirror with a slight haze to it or one that is slightly smudged; that's the best way I can describe it.

That in no way detracts from what they are; fantastic little action cams that can be mounted anywhere and that produce a great image "for what they are"; but it doesn't mean they produce a great image when compared to the rest of the current crop of mirrorless or cinema cameras not to mention they have zero lowlight ability. My GoPro falls apart over ISO400 and my drone falls apart after ISO800. Both are completely unusable at ISO1600.

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

 And you forgot the stabilization ability that has no peers.

I didn't forget; but we were discussing IQ not IS. When it comes to IS though, I 100% agree with you; their stabilization technology is nothing short of amazing and I wish other camera makers could find a way to implement whatever it is they have done.

[markr041]

I agree completely about the low light. I don't see the haze or the mud in good light, though. Maybe I am seeing-impaired. Or maybe you have exp post confirmation bias - you formed an opinion based on outmoded facts and your old camera (Hero 8) and that is what you keep seeing no matter what. Your Hero 8 IQ is truly second-rate on dynamic range and color and resolution (and stabilization); and maybe that is what has put you in this state along with countless old posts on the internet talking about how inferior small sensors are. I just do not see what you are describing in the Hero 11 5.3K videos, and I am not blind to differences across cameras. But, maybe I am. I respect your knowledge, that is not the issue. And I am not claiming the Hero 11 IQ is the same as that from the top bigger-sensor cameras, many of which I also use. But dirty window? No.

[markr041]

Another dirty window video:

 

[herein2020]

3 hours ago, markr041 said:

I agree completely about the low light. I don't see the haze or the mud in good light, though. Maybe I am seeing-impaired. Or maybe you have exp post confirmation bias - you formed an opinion based on outmoded facts and your old camera (Hero 😎 and that is what you keep seeing no matter what. Your Hero 8 IQ is truly second-rate on dynamic range and color and resolution (and stabilization); and maybe that is what has put you in this state along with countless old posts on the internet talking about how inferior small sensors are. I just do not see what you are describing in the Hero 11 5.3K videos, and I am not blind to differences across cameras. But, maybe I am. I respect your knowledge, that is not the issue. And I am not claiming the Hero 11 IQ is the same as that from the top bigger-sensor cameras, many of which I also use. But dirty window? No.

 

I really have no bias at all; I literally just grab whatever camera works for me and go shoot with it; I don't do the pixel peeping thing, I am not an IQ purist, I don't sit on YT and watch reviews all day...in fact I am probably one of the least IQ purists on this forum. I also have never even watched a GoPro IQ or review video, I think I watched a single GoPro video on stabilization when I was buying the 8 (the guy mountain biking down a rocky trail and still getting stable footage sold me on the 8), but I have never purchased a GoPro for IQ.

BTW I am not basing my opinion on the Hero 8, I am basing it on the videos you posted along with my own firsthand experience with small sensors starting with the Hero 3 and drone cameras.  I honestly couldn't care less about sensor size as long as it is producing the IQ that I need.

With all of that said, I still see the "sensor/lens haze" in the videos you posted and in every video out of my drones and GoPros. I do think with some very precise color grading and some very specific scenes with perfect lighting and colors in the scene it could be possible to eliminate it, but unless all of those conditions are met, I see the haze instantly when I am watching your sample videos; not because I am looking for it but simply because it is there; in fact I have seen the same haze when using the Canon EF 75-300 F4-5.6 lens, or when looking at dashcam or CCTV footage.  The exact same camera with the Canon EF 24-105mm F4 L lens is a night and day difference proving whatever is the weakest link will decide the final IQ.

Like I previously mentioned, I think some of it may be due to the lens quality that they use on GoPros or it could just be the resolving power of the sensor; either way it is immediately noticeable to me. But you don't have to convince me, shoot with whatever works for you, maybe when the GoPro 20 comes out they will have eliminated it; either way, its no big deal, my Hero 8 is still perfect for what I got it for and its IQ is good enough for what I need when I need a camera that can do a job none of my other ones can; all I am saying is that for me; GoPro has IQ problems that codecs, bitrates, and color profiles can't fix.

[Amazeballs]

5 hours ago, markr041 said:

Another dirty window video:

 

Does it use NR01=1? Anyway it looks really good for such a small sensor. For linear 16x9 you need to crop even more into it, right? But I love the detail and color. Yes it will fall apart in low light.. but still impressive. 

[markr041]

8 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Does it use NR01=1? Anyway it looks really good for such a small sensor. For linear 16x9 you need to crop even more into it, right? But I love the detail and color. Yes it will fall apart in low light.. but still impressive. 

This one did not use NR01=1, but I will be using that in all future videos. Yes, linear 16x9 is a crop, but GoPro claims it is using some oversampling and it is a crop from 5.3K so there is not the loss of detail one might expect.

[androidlad]

Being an action camera, GoPro really needs an All-Intra codec to combat compression artifacts in high action scenes.

Maybe in the future Hero 12 as 11 only has UHS-I interface.

With UHS-II you have V90 cards which means theoretical maximum 720Mbps bitrate.

[markr041]

Actually, the GoPro Hero 11 is not so bad in dim light. In-camera noise reduction turned off:

Noise reduction is turned off using GoPro Labs firmware. Flat color. No stabilization (used the Shorty tripod). Bitrate upped to 180 Mbps. 10bit color. Shot in windowless, very dim Grand Central Terminal and its underground areas.

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, markr041 said:

Actually, the GoPro Hero 11 is not so bad in dim light. In-camera noise reduction turned off:

Noise reduction is turned off using GoPro Labs firmware. Flat color. No stabilization (used the Shorty tripod). Bitrate upped to 180 Mbps. 10bit color. Shot in windowless, very dim Grand Central Terminal and its underground areas.

What ISO values?

BTW does 4K 120fps offer audio recording included @200 Mbps too?

[markr041]

4 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

What ISO values?

BTW does 4K 120fps offer audio recording included @200 Mbps too?

400 ISO. Yes, 4k 120fps has audio recording no matter what the bitrate.

[Emanuel]

27 minutes ago, markr041 said:

400 ISO. Yes, 4k 120fps has audio recording no matter what the bitrate.

Impressive to say the least : )

You've used anamorphics right? ; )

Do you upsample it once when desqueezed from anamorphic acquistion to the timeline or export?

[markr041]

And now, REC2020 color and Fuji's Flog gamma (along with 10bit color, 180 Mbps HEVC, no noise reduction):

 

[MangoZoom]

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

And now, REC2020 color and Fuji's Flog gamma (along with 10bit color, 180 Mbps HEVC, no noise reduction):

Great video, Mark. Learning a lot from it. And thanks for pointing me to GoPro Labs, it`s a new world for me. What is the Labs code for REC2020 ?