64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Hi everyone. I know this forum is more for cameras/lenses etc but this question is more aimed at preparing footage for broadcast, although I do have a GH4 related question below... Just produced my first TV commercial and saw it on air for the first time today. Bit of a shock as it looked completely different than how it looked on my computer. I'm not talking about the color, Im talking about the motion. The motion looked overly smooth, it was like watching the Hobbit in 48fps for the first time - just odd. The ad was filmed on a Lumix GH4, at 4K, 1080 and 96fps, with the shutter speed set to double whatever the frame rate was. Edited in a 1080 25p timeline, exported as a 1080 25i (top first) ProRes as requested by the network. From what i can gather this is a standard workflow so I'm not sure why the motion looks so smooth. The surrounding commercials looked like the normal, familiar motion that we are all used to. Any ideas? Is it the GH4 just not matching the high end cameras that filmed the other ads? Although they must use similar settings and workflow so surely motion would be the same? Have I done something wrong with the interlacing? Maybe I should be filming at a higher shutter rate? Any tips on your broadcast workflow would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper Mols Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Can we see the video first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 It's not online yet, just TV. Looks fine on computer and I imagine will look fine on YouTube etc (although I would upload the progressive version). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I can only imagine what happened. You wrote your recording frame rate was 96 fps (probably for slomos?). You imported those into a 1080 25p project and exported directly to ProRes 1080 25i (=50i). What the NLE does is ignore the "p"-setting of the project and use every phase preserved in the original recording, therefore effectively ending with really interlaced video that has differing upper and lower fields, whereas what you were actually after was PSF (progressive segmented frames), which meets the broadcast standard whilst still showing the cinematic jerkyness. PSF means: No field domination/order. Premiere: > right click > change > interpret footage > framerate > set to 25p FCP 7: open 96 fps clips as batch in Cinema Tools > conform >framerate conversion >25p (does the same as Premiere, but before import) FCP X: Edit everything in a 25p project, export a 25p master, from that let Compressor make a 50i version (will then have PSF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 I think I did just that. Export master 25p, into Compressor. But exported 25i as requested. Are you saying 50i is the way to go? PSF is a term I haven't heard before but sounds like just what I am looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I think I did just that. Export master 25p, into Compressor. But exported 25i as requested. Are you saying 50i is the way to go? PSF is a term I haven't heard before but sounds like just what I am looking for. If you export a master in 25p as a self-contained film (this is an old term and also one translated from german, but I hope you know what I mean), there are only 25 phases left for Compressor to work with. On the other hand, if you fed FCP with 96 phases, the playback will skip about three of four frames to meet the "25p", but will never discard the original information. The moment you export this timeline with Compressor (and manually set a field domination as "top"!), Compressor will use roughly every second frame of the original, depending on the "frame conversion method" you chose (skip frame, frame blending, optical flow). Because 96 frames can't be divided by 25 in integer numbers, resulting in an irritating stuttering, you may very well have chosen optical flow. Optical flow does allow Compressor to re-invent missing motion information out of 25p to get 50 phases, and it additionally would smudge the 'cadence', smoothing the motion further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 Thank you. Just to clarify, only some shots were 96fps, rest were 50fps and 25fps, all mixed in a 25p timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinmcconnell Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I'm gonna assume you watched it on a TV with the Smooth Motion setting turned on. Makes everything look like junk. Switch it off in the menu settings, and then give it another look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 To confuse matters even more, some display/tv sets these days will actually interpolate "missing" frames in real time with their internal electronics, making slower frame rate "film" material appear more like "video." ...and don't even bother trying to explain aspect ratios to casual consumers or get them to correctly display an image as intended... It's all a friggin' mess these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 No smooth motion option was turned on on TV. Like I said, all other commercials were fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 A good start is to monitor your edit playback on your own broadcast "TV" display not your computer monitor. (with the proper playback capabilities) The most likely scenario is that you inadvertently built the edit with a higher frame rate than intended and then delivered it that way. Computer monitors are progressive, so you wouldn't see an accurate representation of an interlaced frame rate. And even though you didn't shoot interlaced, since it was a high frame rate, that higher frame rate was maintained somehow throughout your post production/exporting. I'd assert this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the camera. It's a post-production mistake. Something wasn't set up correctly in your workflow. My experience for Japan and NorthAmerican TV spots: (ntsc) I build my progressive edits/videos and then export the final clip as a self-contained stand-alone .mov file. This way I'm assured I have a true progressive .mov file at the 24p fps aesthetic I want. Then I place it on a timeline/sequence that's 59.94i and re-export under those particular settings. I'm curious though, what was the intent of shooting 96? Were you converting some of your shots into slow-mo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 Yes, the 96fps were for slow mo, 50fps for slightly slower motion, and 25fps for The interviews. All look odd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Remember that FCP7 doesn't show you the whole frame if the window is less than 100%. If your playback windows is 96% it will deinterlace and show only half the lines. First check that everything looks ok at 100% on the computer. If it does, then compressor is probably applying optical flow to get to 50i (50 fields inside 25 frames). Check the MASTER FILE you send to broadcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 Yes I agree, I need a calibrated TV to view before sending to network, however I'm still not sure where it all went wrong. A good start is to monitor your edit playback on your own broadcast "TV" display not your computer monitor. (with the proper playback capabilities) The most likely scenario is that you inadvertently built the edit with a higher frame rate than intended and then delivered it that way. Computer monitors are progressive, so you wouldn't see an accurate representation of an interlaced frame rate. And even though you didn't shoot interlaced, since it was a high frame rate, that higher frame rate was maintained somehow throughout your post production/exporting. I build my progressive edits/videos and then export the final clip as a self-contained stand-alone .mov file. This way I'm assured I have a true progressive .mov file at the 24p fps aesthetic I want. Then I place it on a timeline/sequence that's 59.94i and re-export under those particular settings. Fuzzynormal -Absolutely certain that the it was edited in a 25p timeline. Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i. Neither am I, but software being weird and having so many parameters that may or may not be working appropriately, tick boxed here or not ticked boxed there... the extra step of assurance keeps the process under control. Works for me anyway. Never been a fan of Compressor myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64mulford Posted September 8, 2014 Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 The general theme I am picking up is to export a 25p master first and then convert to 25i. I'm still not sure why this would give different results than exporting straight from a 25p timeline though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Fuzzynormal -Absolutely certain that the it was edited in a 25p timeline. Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i. Perhaps because Compressor (at least the current version) knows no NONE in the field order checkbox of the duplicated ProRes-preset. Didn't know. The legacy FCP had this third option above upper and lower field first. Also, because the short test clip I exported took an inappropriately long time, I suspect Compressor automatically made in-betweens. Don't like to carry it to the TV set though. Maybe a new project in FCP X is better? There it only says "25i". But I'm not sure. I did make some blurays from 1080 25p. As you know, it's not supported, so FCP X must have converted the stuff to PSF. There was no smoothed motion there. Tell us the solution, once you found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 export a 25p master first and then convert to 25i. You can experiment with thousands of ways to accompish the exporting, but I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S.. You want 25p? Keep your entire workflow in 25p 'til your final cut is created and standing alone as an individual .mov file, that way you know what you got is what you want as you want it. Once that's done, then take the next step(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunyata Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Sounds like you need to set up some internal QC (as said above) of the final export before you deliver. You have to know what your work will look like when it's aired so you can troubleshoot internally and fix the "smooth" problem. You can also try recording the spot when it airs and calibrate against the file you exported for delivery... and throw a crap TV set into the test list too, since that's really what people will see it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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