Sony vs Panny

[Amazeballs]

After the powerfull S5mk2 presentation I just wanted to summarize some cons and pros for both systems from perspective of a guy who owns a Sony camera but switched from GH5 mainly cos of the reliabilty issiues with Panny AF. 

Now ofc we need to take into account that S5mk2 is a baseline new Panny camera with PDAF. They will defeintly introduce updates to the rest of their lineup and it would be much easier to make up your mind in the future when we see all those camers. Nevertheless I just want to lay out what I already can see at the current market position. So this comparison not gonna be very camera specific as obviosly A7S3 beats S5mk2 in terms of rolling shutter and FF resolutions cos Sony is a leader of camera sensor production and they keep their best and newest sensors for themselfs exclusively. Ok lets do it:

Sony

Pros:

- Lens lineup. Yes, an obvious one. E-mount has the strongest lens selection, with tons of options from a plethora of manufcatures. Tamron zooms are awesome and unique. Samyang primes are tiny, awesome and affordable. Sony lenses are quite compact themselfs (compared to Pany its noticable). And they all work more or less the same on Sony cameras. 

- Compactness of the system. You can have a very compact kit with a Sony camera. Both their bodies and lens selection lets you build a very manageable system in terms of size and weight

- Recorded gyro data. That is a pretty cool option. I am currently experimenting with it using GyroFlow which is a much better software than the infamous CatsalystBrowse, I will share my experience on the topic later. Gyroflow already has a Resolve plug-in but its not that great. Future iterations might improve significantly. 

- Sony will always have the latest Sony sensor tech and that is a big factor of their sucesess

And I kind of ran of out pros at this moment 🙂

Cons:

- FIRMWARE updates almost never happen. Thats a very big downside for me cos I hate when companies treat their customers mostly like milking moneybags . And that seems to be a strategy here. 

- A very limited amount of video specific tools. Maybe you want false color, waveforms, shutter angle, opengate recording? Well keep dreaming or buy a Sony higher tier "proper cinema camera" for that. I guess FX3\30 does not classify as one. 

- IBIS is meeh unless you are using post-gyro stabilization which works only in specific modes (doesnt work in S&Q for example or 120fps)

- Body ergomonics is meeh

- HDMI output feed is terribly desgined. Panasonic wins here by a mile. 

In general Sony makes an impression of company that is not vert keen on listenning to their customers feedback and they would prefer to milk all of them to the last drop than to make them happy giving some relevant camera updates and showing some feedback and ability to listen. And for me its an important trait that I react to. 

Panny boy:

Pros:

- the new IBIS is just FUCKING AMAZING! Bravo Panny! You took it to the next level truly. 

- Panny update policy is one of the best in the buisness. You can rest assured that your camera will get relivant updates for the next 2-3 years or more with some sudden surpises along the way. 

- Panny ergonomics is quite good

- their HDMI output layout is great!

- All the video orieneted features that Sony is missing, Panny is actively adding to their cameras

Cons:

- Lenses. The obvious one. They are big, they are expensive, they are limited in variety. But.. their quality is quite good. Focus breathing compensation build-in is very appreciated. And Sigma lenses giving the system some lighter and cheaper options in nice. So its not all that bad but Sony still wins here quite firmly.

- no PDAF.. haha. Well that in the past now. Huge con elliminated finally

What else? Well we need to see the all new lineup refreshed to make an adequte judgement here so the time will tell. But for now Panasonic just raised from the underdog to a strong contender in my eyes. 

---

Border line. For now purely as a company Panny wins in my eyes. They are just more user friendly and video oriented and innovative beyond just sensor tech innovation. 

[PannySVHS]

Image quality is FX6 territory on Pannyboy, except rolling shutter. For image lovers with the willingnes to color grade, Pannyboy is fantastic. For ff 4k60 and 120 the Sonys are the way to go.

[currensheldon]

I just don't agree that the L-Mount is all that weak on lenses. The f1.8 prime set from Panasonic is incredibly and their f2.8 zooms are as well (though big, heavy), plus great f4 pro lenses (16-35, 70-200) and nice affordable, high-quality lenses (24-105mm, 70-300mm, and now the new 14-28mm). And Sigma has an incredible line up of DG DN lenses now, whether you're looking for f1.4 primes (20mm, 24mm, 35mm, 85mm) or f2 primes (20mm, 24mm, 35mm, 65mm) or unique/small lenses (24mm f3.5, 45mm f2.8, 90mm f2.8) small but fast zooms (16-28mm f2.8, 28-70mm f2.8) or the standard 24-70mm f2.8 and 14-24mm f2.8 zooms. 

Agree that Sigma needs an 50mm f1.4 DG DN and Panasonic could use a couple more f1.4 primes (24mm and 85mm), but it's a pretty darn full lineup and you could do almost every type of work with native L-Mount lenses - easy. 

My problem is not knowing which to buy - The Sigma "i" series or the Panasonic f1.8 set - both are amazing.

[newfoundmass]

The L-mount's weakness, re: lenses, is on the telephoto side. Panasonic lenses tend to be significantly bigger than their Sony counterparts. Panny lenses also tend to be a bit on the more expensive side, BUT they are very well made. 

HOWEVER, those 1.8 primes are real nice and I very much like how they are all pretty much the same size and weight. I just wish they were either cheaper, or faster. While their build quality isn't as nice, one thing I like about Canon is how affordable their 1.8 primes are. Their 50mm 1.8 is only $149.99 while Panny's 50mm 1.8 at $374.99 (Sony's is $248 FWIW.) 

I think in the next year the lens gap will close. Right now they're where Sony was 5 or 6 years ago, when lens selection was a big negative for Sony. 

[Chamsom]

13 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The L-mount's weakness, re: lenses, is on the telephoto side. Panasonic lenses tend to be significantly bigger than their Sony counterparts. Panny lenses also tend to be a bit on the more expensive side, BUT they are very well made. 

HOWEVER, those 1.8 primes are real nice and I very much like how they are all pretty much the same size and weight. I just wish they were either cheaper, or faster. While their build quality isn't as nice, one thing I like about Canon is how affordable their 1.8 primes are. Their 50mm 1.8 is only $149.99 while Panny's 50mm 1.8 at $374.99 (Sony's is $248 FWIW.) 

I think in the next year the lens gap will close. Right now they're where Sony was 5 or 6 years ago, when lens selection was a big negative for Sony. 

Canon is playing a marketing strategy. They get beginners with a cheap 50mm and then now you're stuck in their proprietary system paying multiple times that amount. I think they might take the low profits on that in exchange for absurd profits as the user grows with their system.

 

[newfoundmass]

35 minutes ago, Chamsom said:

Canon is playing a marketing strategy. They get beginners with a cheap 50mm and then now you're stuck in their proprietary system paying multiple times that amount. I think they might take the low profits on that in exchange for absurd profits as the user grows with their system.

 

I understand, but it doesn't change the point. 

[Beritar]

I use both L mount and FE mount and for me Panasonic is ahead for image, colors, IBIS, ergonomic. Only the AF is (was) better on Sony. Now the AF is more or less on part, only my wife will use Sony (we will only keep the A7III, along with some GM lenses).
I still have my GH6 for 4K 120fps but I'm not a fan of this camera so I hope Panny will give us at least 4K 60fps FF for the new S1.
Oh and the 24-70mm S Pro is big and heavy, but this lens is magic, never seen such local contrast on a 24-70mm.

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Now ofc we need to take into account that S5mk2 is a baseline new Panny camera with PDAF. They will defeintly introduce updates to the rest of their lineup and it would be much easier to make up your mind in the future when we see all those camers.

I want to see this AF tech from the new S5mk2 in a Panasonic G85mk2 (neither the G95 or G100 was an at all suitable successor to the mighty G85!) or in a GH6S/GH6X or G9mk2 etc

 

16 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

- Compactness of the system. You can have a very compact kit with a Sony camera. Both their bodies and lens selection lets you build a very manageable system in terms of size and weight

Especially with the FX30 (which is arguably a better camera than the FX3, plus is more price competitive vs the S5mk2 than the FX3 is) you can build up a compact / lightweight APS-C / S35 lens kit which has a chance at being kind of comparable to a Panasonic MFT travel kit, something which a FF camera (from Panasonic or anybody else) never has a real chance at being able to do!

16 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

And I kind of ran of out pros at this moment 🙂

Ability to work with others! Seeing as Sony dominates the pro market (especially in the low budget to middle budget market niche, i.e. anything less than ARRI!) then being a shooter with a Sony camera is handy (in fact, not being a Sony shooter might be a disadvantage handicap)
 

 

16 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Panny boy:

Cons:

No TC 😕 😞 
WHYYYYYY!!!! 

The GH5S/GH6/S1/S1H all have it for goodness sake! 

Also another con is the massive HDMI lag from the S5mk2 😕 😞 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, Chamsom said:

Canon is playing a marketing strategy. They get beginners with a cheap 50mm and then now you're stuck in their proprietary system paying multiple times that amount. I think they might take the low profits on that in exchange for absurd profits as the user grows with their system.

Panasonic (or at least their partner: Sigma) need to play this same game. 

Bring out an absurdly cheap couple of lenses. 

Don't care what they are, just make them cheap and preferably more than one. 

Could be a 40mm f4 pancake for $199. 

Could be a 35mm to 105mm variable f-stop zoom for $250

Could be a 50mm f2 for $199

Could be a 35mm f2.8 for $299

Whatever, just make a couple of them asap! To draw people into their L Mount ecosystem.

As they have to play the same game the other companies are playing. Nikon/Canon/Sony/Fujifilm/Pentax all do this. (yes, even Pentax!)

Pentax 50mm f1.8 = $97

Pentax 35mm f/2.4 = $117

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 = $125

Canon EF-S 24mm f/2.8 STM Lens = $129

Nikon 50mm f/1.8D = $132

Nikon DX 35mm f/1.8G = $180

Pentax 40mm f/2.8 (it's an amazing pancake lens!!!) = $230

Nikon DX Macro Lens 40mm f/2.8G = $280

Nikon 28mm f/2.8D = $287

Canon RF 50mm f/1.8 = $149 

Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 = $179

Fujifilm 35mm f/2 = $199

Sony FE 50mm f/1.8 = $248

Sony E 16mm f/2.8 (pancake!) = $248

Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 = $249

Nikon Z 40mm f/2 = $277

Nikon Z 28mm f/2.8 = $277

They need to do the same too for camera bodies, how else can they compete with the gateway drugs of: Nikon Z5, Canon EOS RP, Sony a7C / a7mk3 ?? Let alone the other gateway drugs they all have of APS-C cameras for dirt dirt cheap: Nikon Z30, Canon R10, Sony a6x00

Because as fantastically great as Panasonic MFT cameras are, they're unfortunately not a smooth pathway into the L Mount Ecosystem. 

Am glad to hear that Panasonic will keep around the S5mk1, as that's a smart move. 

Because as I'll say over and over again, Panasonic (and Sigma & Lecia) **NEED** a gateway drug (camera) into the L Mount system.

Sony does this by keeping around their older a7mk3 (and even a7mk2!!) at cheaper prices.

If Panasonic had the S5mk1 available for US$1.7K , then dropping down in the second half of this year to US$1.5K, then the S5 would do well at serving that critical niche point. (and just keep on dropping it down by another $100 each year, until five years from now it's being sold for US$1.1K brand new)

[newfoundmass]

Yeah, I mean when you factor in the quality of the 1.8 Panny primes they are worth it, I think, BUT it's a hard sell when they are so much more costly than their competitors. You can sell an incredible camera like the S5II for $500 less than your competitors and that will entice people, but then you see those lens prices compared to their competitors, and it becomes a bit less enticing. 

Most of my work uses zooms, but I'll end up getting a couple of those primes. But it'd be nice to get a sub $200 50mm prime that was small and lightweight like Canon offers. 

[Amazeballs]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, I mean when you factor in the quality of the 1.8 Panny primes they are worth it, I think, BUT it's a hard sell when they are so much more costly than their competitors. You can sell an incredible camera like the S5II for $500 less than your competitors and that will entice people, but then you see those lens prices compared to their competitors, and it becomes a bit less enticing. 

Most of my work uses zooms, but I'll end up getting a couple of those primes. But it'd be nice to get a sub $200 50mm prime that was small and lightweight like Canon offers. 

Could not agree more

That problem could also be solved if other 3-rd party lens manufactures join L-mount alliance. 

[ac6000cw]

16 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, I mean when you factor in the quality of the 1.8 Panny primes they are worth it, I think, BUT it's a hard sell when they are so much more costly than their competitors. You can sell an incredible camera like the S5II for $500 less than your competitors and that will entice people, but then you see those lens prices compared to their competitors, and it becomes a bit less enticing. 

Most of my work uses zooms, but I'll end up getting a couple of those primes. But it'd be nice to get a sub $200 50mm prime that was small and lightweight like Canon offers. 

In the UK, the S5ii (including 20% sales tax) is currently £1999 body-only, £2299 with 20-60mm f3.5-5.6, £2399 with 20-60mm and 50mm f1.8 bundle, £2499 with 14-28mm f4-5.6. In addition there is a £300 trade-in bonus until end of March. I think this is pretty aggressive launch pricing, and means the 20-60mm and 50mm f1.8 bundle is £399 on top of the body price - very good value I think (much cheaper than buying those two lenses used).

Panasonic seem to use the 50mm f1.8 as a sales-incentive offer quite often (like they do with the 25mm f1.7 on micro 4/3).

But I agree completely that the Sony FF cameras have a much wider choice of lens at all price points (and the few times I've considered trying FF, Sony has been my front runner for that reason).

Maybe now that Panasonic have competitive AF (and hopefully better S-series sales as a consequence) we might see more lens makers join the L-mount alliance - Samyang or one of the Chinese companies might be good to add some low-cost primes?

[ade towell]

Wow that is a fantastic deal with the 20-60mm and 50mm being only £400 more. Am very tempted...

Was looking at Canon R6ii to replace the very frustrating R6 but with the Sigma adapter looking like you can get decent AF with Canon EF lenses, the S5ii looks a much better camera for me. The Panasonics IBIS is way above Canons, and also the much better DR, full size HDMI, touchscreen which stays on when you connect external monitor. 

The S5ii is £779 cheaper than the R6ii, even with the 20-60mm and 50mm deal I can also add the Sigma adapter and it still comes out cheaper than the Canon R6ii. I also trust Panasonic more than Canon to give their camera decent firmware support and make it the best camera they can. 

Sorry I realise this is Sony v Panny  thread and I've just added Canon to the mix 

[Amazeballs]

54 minutes ago, ade towell said:

Sorry I realise this is Sony v Panny  thread and I've just added Canon to the mix 

Well I dont see any reason why not to throw them into the mix as well. Add Nikon if you want.

Damn, this value proposition from Panasonic for 20-60 and 50mm at £400 more is just really solid. Somebody was mentioning the need for cheaper entry lenses above, well here it is boyz.. here it is. 

[ac6000cw]

2 hours ago, ade towell said:

Wow that is a fantastic deal with the 20-60mm and 50mm being only £400 more. Am very tempted...

This is the twin-lens kit at Wex in the UK - https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-digital-camera-with-20-60mm-and-50mm-lens-3083261/ and at Park Cameras - https://www.parkcameras.com/shop/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-with-20-60mm-and-50mm-twin-lens-kit_p016673m (both offer the £300 trade-in bonus, so I assume it is a Panasonic offer). Haven't checked the other UK dealers.

When they're 'on form' Panasonic can certainly come up with the goods - the S5 ii feels like a (FF) spiritual heir to the G9, and the S5 ii X the heir to the GH5 - good value cameras that punch well above their price point.

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

This is the twin-lens kit at Wex in the UK - https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-digital-camera-with-20-60mm-and-50mm-lens-3083261/ and at Park Cameras - https://www.parkcameras.com/shop/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-with-20-60mm-and-50mm-twin-lens-kit_p016673m (both offer the £300 trade-in bonus, so I assume it is a Panasonic offer). Haven't checked the other UK dealers.

When they're 'on form' Panasonic can certainly come up with the goods - the S5 ii feels like a (FF) spiritual heir to the G9, and the S5 ii X the heir to the GH5 - good value cameras that punch well above their price point.

Why don't they ever do this kind of deal in the States?! 😭

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Why don't they ever do this kind of deal in the States?!

Maybe because prices are lower in the first places?

[ntblowz]

In China they have special pre-order price of S5ii for around $1680ish.. 

Now that is quite tempted for me

Wish I still kept that EF to L with build in ND adapter. 

Maybe I might sell R7 for S5 lol. Not having internal screen with hdmi out while recording internally is frustrating for some shoots for me.

 

[Thpriest]

How does the trade in work? Can you trade in any old camera?

[A_Urquhart]

If we are talking in general terms of Panasonic v Sony rather than being camera specific, while the new S5II is a step in the right direction, Panasonic are not even playing in the same ballpark as Sony for anyone more than a hobbyist. Sony are dominating the market and Panasonic really need to start producing some exceptional cameras both at the FX3/FX30 end and to rival the FX6 if they want to compete in the next few years. Most professionals are not going to jump ship from a system of bodies and lenses unless they are given a very good reason to. Panasonic need to produce an FX6 which is as good or better than Sony's but at a much lower price for people to even consider changing system. Same for FX3 and FX30 level cameras. 

For enthusiasts or people who do their own projects then it's less of an issue to swap systems but to people who spend a fair amount of money on equipment, throwing that all away for a 1-5% improvement when pixel peeping is not going to happen. Panasonic have waited too long to get up to speed and without a proper video camera like the Fx6 I can't see them growing too quickly in markets other than hobbyists.