Sony vs Panny

[IronFilm]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:40 AM, ntblowz said:

In China they have special pre-order price of S5ii for around $1680ish.. 

Whaaat??? 😮 Why so very cheap in China?

Does this hint at maybe very soon (well before next Christmas?) we'll see the S5mk3 with sales / a price reduction in the western world as well?

 

  

On 1/7/2023 at 2:44 PM, A_Urquhart said:

If we are talking in general terms of Panasonic v Sony rather than being camera specific, while the new S5II is a step in the right direction, Panasonic are not even playing in the same ballpark as Sony for anyone more than a hobbyist. Sony are dominating the market and Panasonic really need to start producing some exceptional cameras both at the FX3/FX30 end and to rival the FX6 if they want to compete in the next few years. Most professionals are not going to jump ship from a system of bodies and lenses unless they are given a very good reason to. Panasonic need to produce an FX6 which is as good or better than Sony's but at a much lower price for people to even consider changing system. Same for FX3 and FX30 level cameras. 

For enthusiasts or people who do their own projects then it's less of an issue to swap systems but to people who spend a fair amount of money on equipment, throwing that all away for a 1-5% improvement when pixel peeping is not going to happen. Panasonic have waited too long to get up to speed and without a proper video camera like the Fx6 I can't see them growing too quickly in markets other than hobbyists.

100% agreed, also Panasonic has to do this soon to try and turn the tide around. 

If they do bring out an EVA2 (with L Mount) and you're the only Panasonic shooter in your city and everyone else is a Sony shooter, then you're seriously crippling yourself professionally in terms of being able to get as much work as possible. 

Ideally this EVA2 should have came out three years ago (or even longer, heck the EVA1 should have itself came out with a mirrorless mount!!). But at least if they do an EVA2 now rather than in a couple more years (when Sony is even more entrenched) they'll have a better chance at succeeding. 

[ntblowz]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Whaaat??? 😮 Why so very cheap in China?

Does this hint at maybe very soon (well before next Christmas?) we'll see the S5mk3 with sales / a price reduction in the western world as well?

I guess China is quite an important market too, now that they fully opened up so I guess economy will start to go up again.

 

 

 

[currensheldon]

The difference in lenses is overall build and optical quality. The Panasonic 50mm f1.8 is vastly superior in every way to the Canon or Sony equivalents, especially in build and function. With that said, it would be good for Panasonic to have a $150-200 lens to get people into the system. I like the 40mm f2 or 40mm f2.8 pancake option. 

The Panasonic S5 was recently selling for $1500 in the USA and you got a free 50mm f1.8 or awhile and then they switched it to a free 85mm f1.8. I think they should just keep this pricing permanent. After a year or two of using the S5, those users (hooked now with lenses), will be all about upgrading to the S5 II or S2H or whatever comes next. 

But, like they recently said about "looking forward to the rapid expansion of Lumix systems," they need to expand very quickly and aggressively. PDAF is here, the excitement is up, they are better in almost every way compared to the other brands in terms of IQ, tools, IBIS, video assist tools, ergonomics, look/design, mid-tier lens quality, high-end lens quality (for 24-70mm, 50mm f1.4, etc), etc - I really think Panasonic just have better cameras than all of the competition outside of telephoto lenses and AF - but now the AF is comparable to Sony and easily better than the video AF on Canon's R5c. 

They need to spend the next 6-9 months releasing at least 2-3 more bodies. Specifically a VERY video focused video at NAB in April (like BS2H or S2H with updated stacked sensor, high-frame rates, electronic ND (please!), timecode, and (probably though I don't care too much) 8k) and then a 47-61 megapixel S5 IIr. 

A 24mm and 85mm f1.4 in the 500-650 gram range would also be very welcome.

[newfoundmass]

A pretty good overview:

 

[Trek of Joy]

2 hours ago, currensheldon said:

The difference in lenses is overall build and optical quality. The Panasonic 50mm f1.8 is vastly superior in every way to the Canon or Sony equivalents, especially in build and function. With that said, it would be good for Panasonic to have a $150-200 lens to get people into the system. I like the 40mm f2 or 40mm f2.8 pancake option. 

The Panasonic S5 was recently selling for $1500 in the USA and you got a free 50mm f1.8 or awhile and then they switched it to a free 85mm f1.8. I think they should just keep this pricing permanent. After a year or two of using the S5, those users (hooked now with lenses), will be all about upgrading to the S5 II or S2H or whatever comes next. 

But, like they recently said about "looking forward to the rapid expansion of Lumix systems," they need to expand very quickly and aggressively. PDAF is here, the excitement is up, they are better in almost every way compared to the other brands in terms of IQ, tools, IBIS, video assist tools, ergonomics, look/design, mid-tier lens quality, high-end lens quality (for 24-70mm, 50mm f1.4, etc), etc - I really think Panasonic just have better cameras than all of the competition outside of telephoto lenses and AF - but now the AF is comparable to Sony and easily better than the video AF on Canon's R5c. 

They need to spend the next 6-9 months releasing at least 2-3 more bodies. Specifically a VERY video focused video at NAB in April (like BS2H or S2H with updated stacked sensor, high-frame rates, electronic ND (please!), timecode, and (probably though I don't care too much) 8k) and then a 47-61 megapixel S5 IIr. 

A 24mm and 85mm f1.4 in the 500-650 gram range would also be very welcome.

Panasonic - like Nikon with the 1.8 S lenses, are doing great things with the few lenses its released. The faster lenses are stupid huge and not doing them any favors at all. But Sony also has the 50GM, which is vastly superior to pretty much any L-mount lens in every way. Panasonic should be dissecting every recent GM lens and try to top them, the size of many L-mount bodies and lenses are a detractor for many. The 50 1.4z is still great and can be found used for crazy cheap prices compared to its performance. Sony's latest GM mk2 zooms make the gargantuan L-mount 2.8 zooms look silly in comparison - they're better optically, better AF with the linear motors and are much, much smaller. Sony also has the recent 24/35/135 GM's that are class leading, and cheaper alternatives in many cases like the 20/35/80 1.8's. And then there are the vast 3rd party options including everything Sigma has in the L-mount.

Everyone has a long way to catch Sony on the lens side - the only thing anyone outside of Canon can hope for is to try and stack the spec sheet enough to keep people from choosing Sony or Canon. But as we've seen over the last few years, Sony is the only one gaining market share at the expense of everyone else. Lenses are a major factor in their rise. 

Chris

 

 

[currensheldon]

20 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Panasonic - like Nikon with the 1.8 S lenses, are doing great things with the few lenses its released. The faster lenses are stupid huge and not doing them any favors at all. But Sony also has the 50GM, which is vastly superior to pretty much any L-mount lens in every way. Panasonic should be dissecting every recent GM lens and try to top them, the size of many L-mount bodies and lenses are a detractor for many. The 50 1.4z is still great and can be found used for crazy cheap prices compared to its performance. Sony's latest GM mk2 zooms make the gargantuan L-mount 2.8 zooms look silly in comparison - they're better optically, better AF with the linear motors and are much, much smaller. Sony also has the recent 24/35/135 GM's that are class leading, and cheaper alternatives in many cases like the 20/35/80 1.8's. And then there are the vast 3rd party options including everything Sigma has in the L-mount.

Everyone has a long way to catch Sony on the lens side - the only thing anyone outside of Canon can hope for is to try and stack the spec sheet enough to keep people from choosing Sony or Canon. But as we've seen over the last few years, Sony is the only one gaining market share at the expense of everyone else. Lenses are a major factor in their rise. 

Chris

Agreed that the newer Sony lenses are a pretty perfect combination of size, speed, and quality. The newer DN Sigmas as well - that 24mm f1.4 for 500 grams and $800 is pretty incredible. Perhaps that's the way to go for L-Mount if you want something faster than the f1.8.

[Django]

Just catching up with the S5II announcement. This is actually the first Panny mirrorless I'd consider as I'm slaved to DPAF since C100 almost a decade ago. A big kudos to Panasonic for finally getting proper video AF.

The specs and price of the S5ii are also very impressive. FF 6K30p with 3:2 open-gate is simply terrific for the asking price.

Neither Canon or Sony offer these specs at such an entry price point. This alone is very aggressive and makes switching tempting.

I've actually sold my R6 so I'm actively in the market for a new mirrorless right now. And this new entry makes my decision making even tougher.

I was hesitating in between simply upgrading to the R6 II or getting FX30. Or investing in higher up R5/A7S3. Or even R3.

So yeah Canon vs Sony. But the S5II (and upcoming S5IIx) is definitely on my radar now as well.

It would be my number one choice as far as bang for buck but actually the last because of these unknown factors:

- Lenses. I'm not at all equipped in them and the offering seems a little stale & pricy.

- Color Science & VLOG. I know nothing about them and kinda afraid the results and learning curve won't be to my satisfaction. This is really important.

- Size/Weight. I've always found the S series the most heavy/bulky system. Well built though.

[SRV1981]

18 minutes ago, Django said:

Just catching up with the S5II announcement. This is actually the first Panny mirrorless I'd consider as I'm slaved to DPAF since C100 almost a decade ago. A big kudos to Panasonic for finally getting proper video AF.

The specs and price of the S5ii are also very impressive. FF 6K30p with 3:2 open-gate is simply terrific for the asking price.

Neither Canon or Sony offer these specs at such an entry price point. This alone is very aggressive and makes switching tempting.

I've actually sold my R6 so I'm actively in the market for a new mirrorless right now. And this new entry makes my decision making even tougher.

I was hesitating in between simply upgrading to the R6 II or getting FX30. Or investing in higher up R5/A7S3. Or even R3.

So yeah Canon vs Sony. But the S5II (and upcoming S5IIx) is definitely on my radar now as well.

It would be my number one choice as far as bang for buck but actually the last because of these unknown factors:

- Lenses. I'm not at all equipped in them and the offering seems a little stale & pricy.

- Color Science & VLOG. I know nothing about them and kinda afraid the results and learning curve won't be to my satisfaction. This is really important.

- Size/Weight. I've always found the S series the most heavy/bulky system. Well built though.

Makes sense especially with lenses. That said I’m happy with 1-2 lenses and regarding color science, a lot of videos I believe show Panny > Sony with regards to skintones. 

[PannySVHS]

I think Panny ist sweet with tungsten based light, 5600k natural light sometimes a bit boring.

[Kisaha]

@Djangovery confused myself, the Sigma adapter seems to work well also..the X option especially is very tempting..

The R6mkII is still 3.200€ here, the pricing is not competitive at all.

[ade towell]

Instead of updating Canon R6 with R6ii I'm going to go for the stonking deal with the S5ii and 20-60 and 50mm lenses and use EF lenses with sigma adaptor.

The colour science with vlog I think is lovely and makes good use of that great DR, similar to clog2 and I think nicer to grade than slog. I find clog3 on the R6 a bit limiting 

The only RF lens I have is the 16mm 2.8 which is a great little lens but all kinds of edge wobble with Canon and their not so great IBIS. The 20-60mm on the Panny with its superior IBIS will have none of the weirdness and is plenty wide for me.

The 20-60 and 50mm will be great for most AF needs and my EF lenses will be fine with the Sigma adaptor. 

The Sony A7 series has always left me a bit cold, strange eegonomics and not fun to use and colour never wows me. The S5 felt good in the hand and a bit better built than the R6, am excited about getting the S5ii, ticks all the boxes for me

 

[newfoundmass]

43 minutes ago, Django said:

It would be my number one choice as far as bang for buck but actually the last because of these unknown factors:

- Lenses. I'm not at all equipped in them and the offering seems a little stale & pricy.

- Color Science & VLOG. I know nothing about them and kinda afraid the results and learning curve won't be to my satisfaction. This is really important.

- Size/Weight. I've always found the S series the most heavy/bulky system. Well built though.

Lens selection has improved. They might be second to only Sony at this point, though as you said a lot of them are expensive. The performance of the Sigma EF to L adapter though might be something worth looking into, as the performance from what I've seen has been impressive. The Sigma lenses themselves look to work really well too.

VLOG, from my experience, is the easiest LOG profile to work with. I wasn't a fan of VLOG-L, so I never really used it on my GH5 and kinda regretted buying the license. Once I got the S5 and full VLOG though that changed. For concerts and live events I still will usually film using the natural profile because it's "good enough" straight out of camera and the lighting isn't usually ideal, but for everything else I pretty much always use it because of how simple it is. I like the gamut.io VLOG conversion LUT a lot.

Going from the GH5 to the S5, the size difference was negligible. You'll mostly feel it in the lenses, but I don't know that they're that much heavier than what you're used to. 

22 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Sony is the only one gaining market share at the expense of everyone else. Lenses are a major factor in their rise. 

I actually disagree about lenses being a major factor in Sony's rise. For a long time the biggest knock towards Sony was the lens selection, but they grew despite that because for the longest time they had the full frame mirrorless market to themselves. That allowed them to overcome issues that plagued them, like the lens selection, terrible rolling shutter, overheating, ergonomics, color, etc. Canon and Nikon didn't enter the market until the end of 2018, and when they did their entries were weaker than the A7iii that had already been released six months earlier. That they pretty much opened the E mount to pretty much everyone to make lenses certainly did help, and it quickly made the "lack of lens selection" complaint a thing of the past, but being the only real full frame player in the mirrorless game for years while everyone lagged behind is what I'd say is THE major factor in their rise. That it all happened during the "content creator" boom was huge, too. Things though really could've shaken out differently. I think people forget how prevalent/popular the GH4 and GH5 (and even G7) were pre-A7iii. The A7iii was a game changer, but before that most video shooters were using either Canon DSLRs or Panasonic cameras if they were using ILCs.

Full frame lenses for the E mount really didn't start coming fast and furious until Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and other third parties started to release a flood of lenses in 2019. Before that there were like 25 Sony lenses, a Tamron zoom, and Sigma's f1.4 primes, which wasn't a lot for a system that had been out for almost 7 years at that point. The lack of lenses didn't stop the A7iii from becoming one of the most popular cameras of all time right from the start (remember how it was backordered for a lot of 2018?)

 

TL;DR version: Lens selection NOW might be a selling point for the E mount, but that really only recently became the case. In the early stages of Sony's growth it was actually a negative.

 

[newfoundmass]

33 minutes ago, ade towell said:

Instead of updating Canon R6 with R6ii I'm going to go for the stonking deal with the S5ii and 20-60 and 50mm lenses and use EF lenses with sigma adaptor.

The colour science with vlog I think is lovely and makes good use of that great DR, similar to clog2 and I think nicer to grade than slog. I find clog3 on the R6 a bit limiting 

The only RF lens I have is the 16mm 2.8 which is a great little lens but all kinds of edge wobble with Canon and their not so great IBIS. The 20-60mm on the Panny with its superior IBIS will have none of the weirdness and is plenty wide for me.

The 20-60 and 50mm will be great for most AF needs and my EF lenses will be fine with the Sigma adaptor. 

The Sony A7 series has always left me a bit cold, strange eegonomics and not fun to use and colour never wows me. The S5 felt good in the hand and a bit better built than the R6, am excited about getting the S5ii, ticks all the boxes for me

 

The 20-60 is probably the best kit lens I've ever used. My only complaint is the lack of OIS; it'd help a lot I think on the wide end, especially with the wobble (which is there on the S5, but looks to be significantly reduced on the S5ii.) I think the first prime I'm going to get is the 35mm, as I can switch to APSC and it becomes a 50mm, thus covering two of my most used focal lengths with one lens.

[ade towell]

Yes from what I've seen there is no real wobble at 20mm on the S5ii, looks useable to me. And for everything else Panasonic IBIS alone is better than IBIS and lens IS combination on either Sony or Canon. 

And goodbye micro HDMI you will not be missed

[ade towell]

Just put my pre order in.

To me the S5ii is the first mirrorless hybrid with no real weakness. Other than it doesn't have an upward path (which admittedly is enough of a turn off for some. But with the Sigma adaptor seeming to cope so well with EF lens AF, I can see it as a great mirrorless b camera to Canon cine cams)

I think Panny have created an absolute powerhouse at a bargain price. Nothing else comes close for the money

[Al Dolega]

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

TL;DR version: Lens selection NOW might be a selling point for the E mount, but that really only recently became the case. In the early stages of Sony's growth it was actually a negative.

 

I think the Tamron 28-70 coming out on the heels of the A7III in 2018 was a big multiplier for a lot of people. You finally had an affordable fast zoom with very few compromises, and it was compact and sharp. And then the 17-28 and 70-180 afterwards just reinforced that. All the other lenses helped of course, but it seemed to me like that was when the E-mount lens ecosystem really became viable, and even desirable for those without G-Master-deep wallets.

If only I had been as happy with the A7III as I was with the Tamron! I wonder if we'll see Tamron make L-mount versions of those lenses if the S5II does well. I know Sony owns a portion of Tamron so maybe they will nix that.

 

[newfoundmass]

54 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

I wonder if we'll see Tamron make L-mount versions of those lenses if the S5II does well. I know Sony owns a portion of Tamron so maybe they will nix that.

I too hope Tamron decides to release L mount lenses but I wouldn't hold my breath. I like Sigma a lot, but those Tamron lenses are a steal. 

[MrSMW]

11 hours ago, Django said:

Lenses. I'm not at all equipped in them and the offering seems a little stale & pricy.

Nah, the range is huge ranging from cheap 3rd party primes and cine lenses through all manner of primes and zooms from Panny, Sigma and Leica and pricier cine stuff.

It’s really only longer photography lenses such as for sports and wildlife where the system might be a bit ‘light’.

Sure some (all!) of the Leica stuff is expensive as is the older (and bigger) Panasonic so I’d be looking at Sigma for AF stuff or as suggested, the adapter and EF.

An argument can be made for any of the main systems right now and it depends on your needs but probably the best video-centric and all-rounder (talking small mirrorless hybrid) right now is L Mount with an S5ii body.

Just my opinion and off course I am invested so somewhat biased but was ready and was chucking it all in to go Sony if they had not sorted the AF.

Enough for me to stay at least. If I was already invested elsewhere it would be harder to call…

[Beritar]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:37 PM, Trek of Joy said:

Panasonic - like Nikon with the 1.8 S lenses, are doing great things with the few lenses its released. The faster lenses are stupid huge and not doing them any favors at all. But Sony also has the 50GM, which is vastly superior to pretty much any L-mount lens in every way. Panasonic should be dissecting every recent GM lens and try to top them, the size of many L-mount bodies and lenses are a detractor for many. The 50 1.4z is still great and can be found used for crazy cheap prices compared to its performance. Sony's latest GM mk2 zooms make the gargantuan L-mount 2.8 zooms look silly in comparison - they're better optically, better AF with the linear motors and are much, much smaller. Sony also has the recent 24/35/135 GM's that are class leading, and cheaper alternatives in many cases like the 20/35/80 1.8's. And then there are the vast 3rd party options including everything Sigma has in the L-mount.

Everyone has a long way to catch Sony on the lens side - the only thing anyone outside of Canon can hope for is to try and stack the spec sheet enough to keep people from choosing Sony or Canon. But as we've seen over the last few years, Sony is the only one gaining market share at the expense of everyone else. Lenses are a major factor in their rise. 

Chris

 

 

Superior about sharpness maybe but not about rendering and colors. I prefer my 50mm S Pro over the 50mm GM (I sold the latter last month). The 24-70mm S Pro has great rendering too and I don't think the 24-70mm GM II is as good except for sharpness but I only used the first 24-70mm GM so I'm not sure.
I still have the 35mm and 135mm GM though, microcontrast is outstanding on the 35mm GM for an AF lens.

[Kisaha]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:46 AM, ade towell said:

Just put my pre order in.

To me the S5ii is the first mirrorless hybrid with no real weakness. Other than it doesn't have an upward path (which admittedly is enough of a turn off for some. But with the Sigma adaptor seeming to cope so well with EF lens AF, I can see it as a great mirrorless b camera to Canon cine cams)

I think Panny have created an absolute powerhouse at a bargain price. Nothing else comes close for the money

Is there a crop in 4K/50?

I am not sure, but if that's true, that is a main disadvantage in 2023, even for such a cheap camera. Is something to be expected I guess..

I am split for going Pana myself..It is very close to perfect, and I am sure there will be multi firmware updates..