My wishlist for the next Panny upper tier S-camera

[Amazeballs]

S5mk2 is basicly a entry level FF camera from Panny. Its not the camera where they'll make a lot of money (though I hope to be in the wrong here) but the camera to attract a large base of fresh customers/switchers to L-mount system. They definitely should make more models of other types of L-mount cameras, refreshing thier lineup. And my guess would be it all pretty much depends on the avalability on the Sony sensor tech for those specific cameras. 

[bjohn]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And even if he had, it is still very hard to predict what will happen in three or five years time... never say never to a possibility. 

Unless he works for Panasonic (and he doesn't) it's all speculation anyway. People make confident predictions all the time that turn out to be wrong...ask any stockbroker. 😉

[MurtlandPhoto]

3 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

S5mk2 is basicly a entry level FF camera from Panny. Its not the camera where they'll make a lot of money (though I hope to be in the wrong here) but the camera to attract a large base of fresh customers/switchers to L-mount system. 

Low margin, high volume strategy is likely at play, here. They'll sell many more S5ii's than the more expensive S1H(ii?) and recoup R&D and other costs through sheer market saturation. Most entry level cameras have followed this principle for years.

[Al Dolega]

They should simplify the lineup and just do an S1H replacement with full-width 4K60/120, internal raw, timecode etc and internal ND's, locking IBIS, basically what the R5C should have been, a full-tilt "video DSLR". No need for an EVA2.

Then meld the S1 and S1R together into a single replacement model that's like the S5II but with full-width 4K60, combo screen mechanism, and the bigger battery and better EVF.

[hojomo]

1 hour ago, Al Dolega said:

They should simplify the lineup and just do an S1H replacement with full-width 4K60/120, internal raw, timecode etc and internal ND's, locking IBIS, basically what the R5C should have been, a full-tilt "video DSLR". No need for an EVA2.

Then meld the S1 and S1R together into a single replacement model that's like the S5II but with full-width 4K60, combo screen mechanism, and the bigger battery and better EVF.

So a single Panny body with low RS? I was really surprised to read that there is (allegedly, same leaker as S5II) S1 successor coming. If they are following same pattern 'd expect it to use the same 33 mpx as Sony, with the same terrible RS.

The cartel is now allowing Panny into the adequate hybrid AF club. Meanwhile Sony's few shortcomings (except for the ergos -- which I suppose don't bother a lot of new shooters & are probably permabaked into the line) are starting to fall away with the release of the A7IV/A7RV. Is Panny trading in the AF but keeping terrible RS in FF across the whole line?

I kind of think you are right and what they might be planning for the S1 is to extend the Sony license of the S1R sensor, with the PD abilities unlocked just like the S5II.

That would then leave some kind S1H/EVA pro video successor to 'complete' the line.

[A_Urquhart]

1 hour ago, Al Dolega said:

They should simplify the lineup and just do an S1H replacement with full-width 4K60/120, internal raw, timecode etc and internal ND's, locking IBIS, basically what the R5C should have been, a full-tilt "video DSLR". No need for an EVA2.

Then meld the S1 and S1R together into a single replacement model that's like the S5II but with full-width 4K60, combo screen mechanism, and the bigger battery and better EVF.

There is plenty of need for an EVA replacement in a slightly smaller body. 

Firstly, it's going to be hard cramming all that in to a thin mirrorless body. Sure, you could do something like the Pocket6K Pro but if you are aiming for the next level up user, the professional, most do not like the form factor of DSLR's for video.

Panasonic needs a Sony FX6 level camera in their lineup. The FX6 is hugely popular for any work where an Alexa Mini is too expensive or not required. FX6's are everywhere and easily dominate the Pro market globally. Why wouldn't Panasonic want a slice of that pie? 

Do you know what most Camera Operators that shoot on FX6's also buy? FX30's and FX3's as B Cameras. 

You know what else these operators are starting to purchase? Genuine lenses for Autofocus. Lots of shooters doing sport content (which is a huge market) are now wanting AF as the new systems are very reliable. For the best performance, they are buying genuine lenses. So, with an FX6 purchase, you will likely get an FX3 or FX30 purchase AND two or three G Master lenses. 

Panasonic would be absolutely crazy to not chase that market.

[A_Urquhart]

13 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Panasonic would be absolutely crazy to not chase that market.

The issue is, that they have neglected the market for so long that everyone shoots Sony (and less so, Canon) now. Panasonic have the heritage to slowly change that but they need to start making exceptional cameras very very soon

[IronFilm]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:54 AM, A_Urquhart said:

There is plenty of need for an EVA replacement in a slightly smaller body. 

Firstly, it's going to be hard cramming all that in to a thin mirrorless body. Sure, you could do something like the Pocket6K Pro but if you are aiming for the next level up user, the professional, most do not like the form factor of DSLR's for video.

Panasonic needs a Sony FX6 level camera in their lineup. The FX6 is hugely popular for any work where an Alexa Mini is too expensive or not required. FX6's are everywhere and easily dominate the Pro market globally. Why wouldn't Panasonic want a slice of that pie? 

Do you know what most Camera Operators that shoot on FX6's also buy? FX30's and FX3's as B Cameras. 

You know what else these operators are starting to purchase? Genuine lenses for Autofocus. Lots of shooters doing sport content (which is a huge market) are now wanting AF as the new systems are very reliable. For the best performance, they are buying genuine lenses. So, with an FX6 purchase, you will likely get an FX3 or FX30 purchase AND two or three G Master lenses. 

Panasonic would be absolutely crazy to not chase that market.

10000000% agreed!

And it is not just FX6 owners, but also aspiring FX6 owners. 

Lots of buyers of an a7S  / a7 / a6x00 / etc who get those and aspire to one day have "a pro camera", and get a mirrorless stills camera with the same mount as what they know they'll one day upgrade to. 

As much as I like this new S5mk2 release, and think it is awesome, it's nearly impossible for me to justify getting when a) I have a FS7 with an E Mount, and b) if/when I get another pro camera (in a few years time, no rush. I want the supply shortages to end, and for them to depreciate in cost), it will most likely be a FX6! (or maaaaaybe FX9, anyway it is definitely an E Mount!)

This was the biggest issue with MFT Mount as well, when it became clear there would never ever be an AF100 replacement. At least BMD kinda sort of filled that hole (in a different way) for a while with their MFT cameras. 

Panasonic is seriously crippling themselves by not having an "EVA2 with a L Mount". 

People need to know there is an upgrade path for them well beyond the S5mk2. 

  

On 1/7/2023 at 12:08 PM, A_Urquhart said:

The issue is, that they have neglected the market for so long that everyone shoots Sony (and less so, Canon) now. Panasonic have the heritage to slowly change that but they need to start making exceptional cameras very very soon

Also true 😞

[Sharathc47]

I Wish Panasonic works with Blackmagic for their Box cameras.
Blackmagic can make more money by licensing BRAW to other companies like panasonic than making their own cameras. a 250$ licensing fee would do the trick

the problem with BRAW is it needs a special encoder installed in camera for partial debayer process I think. That’s why we didn’t see any cameras with internal BRAW. 
 

or Blackmagic don’t want competitors in cinema camera space 

Another idea would be to create a partial debayer raw codec for l mount alliance like BRAW & ZRAW. But no camera company has as much software power as Blackmagic. 
hmmmmmm may be DJI?

[Amazeballs]

3 hours ago, Sharathc47 said:

I Wish Panasonic works with Blackmagic for their Box cameras.
Blackmagic can make more money by licensing BRAW to other companies like panasonic than making their own cameras. a 250$ licensing fee would do the trick

the problem with BRAW is it needs a special encoder installed in camera for partial debayer process I think. That’s why we didn’t see any cameras with internal BRAW. 
 

or Blackmagic don’t want competitors in cinema camera space 

Another idea would be to create a partial debayer raw codec for l mount alliance like BRAW & ZRAW. But no camera company has as much software power as Blackmagic. 
hmmmmmm may be DJI?

I am all up for that. It would be very promising for BM to enter L-mount alliance and license BRAW to everyone there. They need a mirrorless mount anyway and L-mount seems to me like their best option. Lots of glass and ability to adapt EF lenses the like so much. 

[newfoundmass]

It definitely would make sense for BMD to start using an L mount given the adaptability, vs. EF. Other than working with Canon to use the RF mount or Sony to use the E mount, it's probably the best option for them.

[currensheldon]

On 1/8/2023 at 4:49 AM, IronFilm said:

10000000% agreed!

And it is not just FX6 owners, but also aspiring FX6 owners. 

Lots of buyers of an a7S  / a7 / a6x00 / etc who get those and aspire to one day have "a pro camera", and get a mirrorless stills camera with the same mount as what they know they'll one day upgrade to. 

As much as I like this new S5mk2 release, and think it is awesome, it's nearly impossible for me to justify getting when a) I have a FS7 with an E Mount, and b) if/when I get another pro camera (in a few years time, no rush. I want the supply shortages to end, and for them to depreciate in cost), it will most likely be a FX6! (or maaaaaybe FX9, anyway it is definitely an E Mount!)

This was the biggest issue with MFT Mount as well, when it became clear there would never ever be an AF100 replacement. At least BMD kinda sort of filled that hole (in a different way) for a while with their MFT cameras. 

Panasonic is seriously crippling themselves by not having an "EVA2 with a L Mount". 

People need to know there is an upgrade path for them well beyond the S5mk2. 

For sure. Unfortunately, the Varicam and EVA-2 were from the cinema division and not the Lumix division and I think the cinema division is done. However, I still think Lumix could fill the same gap and kind of did with the BS1H, but it was missing too many features to snag any of the Red Komodo, Z-Cam, and other box-like camera pie.  

A lot of the niche manufacturers are doing some really amazing things with their cameras and Panasonic should take the same approach. Black Magic with their internal raw and giant 5" very bright screen. Kinefinity with their design, use of SSDs, electronic ND, dual battery plate, and great monitor solutions, Z-Cam F6 Pro with V-Mount (YESSS), etc. The Ronin 4D is also brilliantly designed and if it didn't have the gimbal on the front, I would buy it in a heartbeat. 

All of the major manufacturers use the exact same photo-first design (even the Sony FX3 and FX30 and Canon R5c), which just isn't great for video shooting (the Canon C70 is great, but sort of proves the point. Pain in the butt to hold that large of a camera out in front of you and use the dinky screen). 

Panasonic needs to think out of the box and expand the S1H into a video-creating monster for $4500. In my mind that means mostly hardware upgrades (assuming they'll snag something like the A1 sensor):

- Internal NDs that work with IBIS

 

 

[currensheldon]

Oops. Didn't quite finish the post and it wouldn't let me edit.

Here ya go:

A lot of the niche manufacturers are doing some really amazing things with their cameras and Panasonic should take the same approach. Black Magic with their internal raw and giant 5" very bright screen. Kinefinity with their design, use of SSDs, electronic ND, dual battery plate, and great monitor solutions, Z-Cam F6 Pro with V-Mount (YESSS), etc. The Ronin 4D is also brilliantly designed and if it didn't have the gimbal on the front, I would buy it in a heartbeat. 

All of the major manufacturers use the exact same photo-first design (even the Sony FX3 and FX30 and Canon R5c), which just isn't great for video shooting (the Canon C70 is great, but sort of proves the point. Pain in the butt to hold that large of a camera out in front of you and use the dinky screen). 

Panasonic needs to think out of the box and expand the S1H into a video-creating monster for $4000 - $4500. In my mind that means mostly hardware upgrades (assuming they'll snag something like the A1 sensor):

- Electronic ND that works with IBIS
- Two Mini XLRs
- TIMECODE (criminal that the S5 IIx doesn't have this)
- Dedicated top handle (the FX30 does this great)
- 4 - 4.5", 1200+ nit screen - you may still want to use an external monitor, but don't make it a necessity). Would also be great if this could be mounted to the side of the handle (like the Mavo Edge). 
- SDI port
- Same PDAF as S5 II
- Some other out-of-the-box accessories: a battery grip that has an SSD slot for external raw (rather than having to buy crappy Atomos monitor/recorders).

Every time a manufacturer has caught up in the space they did something others were not doing (Sony with small, full-frame mirrorless cameras and then a focus on AF, Fuji with their retro design and aesthetics, Red with 4k and 8k, Black Magic with interesting features and low prices, etc).

Panasonic is not going to win doing the same thing as everyone else, even if they do it better. They have to take a leap and offer something others won't. I hope they do.

[IronFilm]

Agreeing here with everything you're saying. 

On 1/11/2023 at 9:22 AM, currensheldon said:

- Electronic ND that works with IBIS
- Two Mini XLRs

Dream big, let's make it full size XLRs! I reckon it can fit on something that size. Or maybe a compromise:

1x XLR for L
1x TA3F (with P48) for R
1x TA5F for the 3rd & 4th channels of audio

On 1/11/2023 at 9:22 AM, currensheldon said:

- TIMECODE (criminal that the S5 IIx doesn't have this)

Yes! And Genlock too! Make it a truly pro level streaming camera. 

[barefoot_dp]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 AM, A_Urquhart said:

FX6's are everywhere and easily dominate the Pro market globally. Why wouldn't Panasonic want a slice of that pie?

The only way Panasonic can compete with the FX6 is on price. And it would have to be a significant difference to sway people away from the Sony. Putting all your R&D budget towards making a camera that is just as good as the FX6, just so that you can sell it for significantly less, is a hard pitch.

[newfoundmass]

32 minutes ago, barefoot_dp said:

The only way Panasonic can compete with the FX6 is on price. And it would have to be a significant difference to sway people away from the Sony. Putting all your R&D budget towards making a camera that is just as good as the FX6, just so that you can sell it for significantly less, is a hard pitch.

I don't think they're that far off from being able to EXCEED what the FX6 is capable of and at a lower price point. I'm not saying they should try to, but the gap between the S1H and the FX6 isn't THAT huge. The big difference is form factor, e-ND, and I/O. It already beats it in numerous ways, like resolution and dynamic range. 

People act like Sony is unbeatable, but the tech gap and the headstart they had is narrowing more and more. We're at a point where even Nikon and Fuji are creating powerful video tools, while Canon has started becoming more and more aggressive with its video features and pricing. Whether it's in the mirrorless market or the cine market, Sony isn't invulnerable. 

[A_Urquhart]

7 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

The only way Panasonic can compete with the FX6 is on price. And it would have to be a significant difference to sway people away from the Sony. Putting all your R&D budget towards making a camera that is just as good as the FX6, just so that you can sell it for significantly less, is a hard pitch.

Panasonic need to play the long game if they wan't to regain a user base especially one that does spend quite a bit of money over years of ownership. I think Panasonic could easily produce a camera on par, if not better than the FX6 for at least $1000 less. Even if margins are low to start with, they play the long game and entice pro's back to the brand.

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't think they're that far off from being able to EXCEED what the FX6 is capable of and at a lower price point. I'm not saying they should try to, but the gap between the S1H and the FX6 isn't THAT huge. The big difference is form factor, e-ND, and I/O. It already beats it in numerous ways, like resolution and dynamic range. 

People act like Sony is unbeatable, but the tech gap and the headstart they had is narrowing more and more. ......

Yep, Sony are definitely beatable! For a start, I hate the cheap feeling menu dials that ofter skip two or three menu items in one click. Their EVF/Screen is not very robust at all. I'd say Sony's build quality on the FX6 is pretty poor overall. 

Panasonic have been in the broadcast/ ENG game a long time. They now have the tech including AF for those that need it. They just need to package it up in a camera that suits the pro user. FX6-ish form factor, eVND, Full size XLR, Timecode input/output, Genlock, good EVF, etc etc.

 

[currensheldon]

11 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't think they're that far off from being able to EXCEED what the FX6 is capable of and at a lower price point. I'm not saying they should try to, but the gap between the S1H and the FX6 isn't THAT huge. The big difference is form factor, e-ND, and I/O. It already beats it in numerous ways, like resolution and dynamic range. 

People act like Sony is unbeatable, but the tech gap and the headstart they had is narrowing more and more. We're at a point where even Nikon and Fuji are creating powerful video tools, while Canon has started becoming more and more aggressive with its video features and pricing. Whether it's in the mirrorless market or the cine market, Sony isn't invulnerable. 

Agreed. I would argue for pure image quality at 24-30fps in 4k, the S1H is ahead of the FX6. I think the FX6 is just OK in the under $10k space in terms of IQ - not even in my top 10 cameras (no Sony is). BUT it does do a lot of other things well (favorite form factor, E-ND, 120fps 4k, etc), which might be more important for some jobs. 

But a full-frame, 6k-8k, L-Mount cinema camera that featured the same specs for $5-7k would be very enticing for a lot of people. I like that many new cameras went for just 4k (FX6, FX9, C300 III, C70) as you rarely need more than that, BUT that does leave the door open for someone like Panasonic to leapfrog them to the next level of 6k and 8k, and then to add features like internal ProRes, great 4k downsampled from 8k, etc. If they just put out an EVA-1 with an L-Mount, probably wouldn't move the needle, but a bigger leap would.

[TomTheDP]

32 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Agreed. I would argue for pure image quality at 24-30fps in 4k, the S1H is ahead of the FX6. I think the FX6 is just OK in the under $10k space in terms of IQ - not even in my top 10 cameras (no Sony is). BUT it does do a lot of other things well (favorite form factor, E-ND, 120fps 4k, etc), which might be more important for some jobs. 

But a full-frame, 6k-8k, L-Mount cinema camera that featured the same specs for $5-7k would be very enticing for a lot of people. I like that many new cameras went for just 4k (FX6, FX9, C300 III, C70) as you rarely need more than that, BUT that does leave the door open for someone like Panasonic to leapfrog them to the next level of 6k and 8k, and then to add features like internal ProRes, great 4k downsampled from 8k, etc. If they just put out an EVA-1 with an L-Mount, probably wouldn't move the needle, but a bigger leap would.

END is really amazing and underrated. I think every camera should have it. The other nice thing about the FX6 is the fast sensor readout making for very little rolling shutter. 

But for me an EVA1 style camera, with a full frame sensor shooting up to 60fps at full sensor and 120fps widowed in prores would be perfect. Honestly full sensor 4k 120fps would be great as it would mean the sensor has a very fast readout making for less rolling shutter. But I could settle with a standard S1H speed rolling shutter. 

Something like that for like $3500 would be compelling. It would just be good enough and cheaper than competition to make it a compelling option. 

[barefoot_dp]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:24 PM, newfoundmass said:

I don't think they're that far off from being able to EXCEED what the FX6 is capable of and at a lower price point.

People act like Sony is unbeatable, but the tech gap and the headstart they had is narrowing more and more.

I have no doubt they could exceed the FX6 as well. But that won't necessarily entice people away from the Sony ecosystem. The FX6 absolutely nails it's demographic. Those users don't want 8K because it's overkill and a pain for corporate stuff. They don't need raw because it's not necessary. They don't need better/different colour science because at this point everyone (pro) knows how to deal with Sony footage. They don't need indestructible build quality as they're not renting it out. They don't want it much smaller/lighter because then the ergonomics suck.

So were could Panasonic offer something that is better than the Sony that the users are actually asking for? Really the only thing left is price - and even then it has to be SIGNIFICANT because (a) there's so many more Sony lenses around so you can find them much cheaper used, meaning the price of the system can still be lower even if the cam is priced higher, (b) the FX6 earns most shooters more money by being so heavily requested, so it's a better investment.

They can easily make a better camera, it's just very hard to make a more attractive camera.