My wishlist for the next Panny upper tier S-camera

[barefoot_dp]

13 hours ago, currensheldon said:

I would argue for pure image quality at 24-30fps in 4k, the S1H is ahead of the FX6. I think the FX6 is just OK in the under $10k space in terms of IQ - not even in my top 10 cameras (no Sony is). BUT it does do a lot of other things well (favorite form factor, E-ND, 120fps 4k, etc), which might be more important for some jobs. 

But a full-frame, 6k-8k, L-Mount cinema camera that featured the same specs for $5-7k would be very enticing for a lot of people. I like that many new cameras went for just 4k (FX6, FX9, C300 III, C70) as you rarely need more than that, BUT that does leave the door open for someone like Panasonic to leapfrog them to the next level of 6k and 8k, and then to add features like internal ProRes, great 4k downsampled from 8k, etc. If they just put out an EVA-1 with an L-Mount, probably wouldn't move the needle, but a bigger leap would.

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post. That probably comes down to not enough time spent with it, but that is precisely where the FX6 hammers it - every decent editor/colourist has worked with S-log enough to be able to get a pretty decent image out of it. That matters in professional workflows, and no producer wants to hire a shooter who's going to have their post team scratching their heads or wasting time learning a whole new colour pipeline. Maybe the Panasonic CAN deliver a better image with careful grading, but 19/20 editors will deliver a better result in less time with the FX6.

I agree that FX6 is only ok under $10K, but that's because it's actually playing under $6K now. It's only real competitor is the C70 but that's a big step away ergonomically. Other than that the BMPCC 6K/Z-Cam offer some similar capability but lack the out of the box functionality. It's already at a price point that is pretty hard to undercut.

[Robert Patts]

Quote

1 hour ago, barefoot_dp said:

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post.

 

Why is that? I exclusively use the S1H and have had no problems in post at all.

[currensheldon]

10 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post. That probably comes down to not enough time spent with it, but that is precisely where the FX6 hammers it - every decent editor/colourist has worked with S-log enough to be able to get a pretty decent image out of it. That matters in professional workflows, and no producer wants to hire a shooter who's going to have their post team scratching their heads or wasting time learning a whole new colour pipeline. Maybe the Panasonic CAN deliver a better image with careful grading, but 19/20 editors will deliver a better result in less time with the FX6.

I agree that FX6 is only ok under $10K, but that's because it's actually playing under $6K now. It's only real competitor is the C70 but that's a big step away ergonomically. Other than that the BMPCC 6K/Z-Cam offer some similar capability but lack the out of the box functionality. It's already at a price point that is pretty hard to undercut.

What I meant by my favorite 4k, 24fps under $10k is ANY camera under $10k at ANY price.

Cameras that I like the image more than the FX6 under $10k includes the C70, for sure, but also the C200 (in raw), S1H, S1, S5/S5 II, Pocket 6k, Pocket 4k, EVA-1, Z-Cam F6, Red Komodo, etc. Pretty much any camera that has come out in the last 4-years is better than the FX6/FX3/A7sIII image IMO. Sony's colors have improved and their DR and frame rates are very nice, but the image still looks digital to me and the colors a touch dead. LOVE the form factor of the FX6 though.

[newfoundmass]

11 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

They can easily make a better camera, it's just very hard to make a more attractive camera.

While there absolutely are people who will remain entrenched in the Sony camp, for a lot of people a better camera IS a more attractive camera.

11 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post. That probably comes down to not enough time spent with it, but that is precisely where the FX6 hammers it - every decent editor/colourist has worked with S-log enough to be able to get a pretty decent image out of it. That matters in professional workflows, and no producer wants to hire a shooter who's going to have their post team scratching their heads or wasting time learning a whole new colour pipeline. Maybe the Panasonic CAN deliver a better image with careful grading, but 19/20 editors will deliver a better result in less time with the FX6.

You probably have more experience than I do, and it might be because I know more people using Panasonic cameras (both FF and M43), but I've really never met anyone that has found Panasonic cameras to be difficult to grade, at least not full v-log. I do know quite a few who really do not like dealing with Sony but have to because it's what they are given to work with. Most people I know who have worked with v-log will often tell me that it's their favorite form of log to grade, and that it's the easiest to get the look they want.

[TomTheDP]

19 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post. That probably comes down to not enough time spent with it, but that is precisely where the FX6 hammers it - every decent editor/colourist has worked with S-log enough to be able to get a pretty decent image out of it. That matters in professional workflows, and no producer wants to hire a shooter who's going to have their post team scratching their heads or wasting time learning a whole new colour pipeline. Maybe the Panasonic CAN deliver a better image with careful grading, but 19/20 editors will deliver a better result in less time with the FX6.

I agree that FX6 is only ok under $10K, but that's because it's actually playing under $6K now. It's only real competitor is the C70 but that's a big step away ergonomically. Other than that the BMPCC 6K/Z-Cam offer some similar capability but lack the out of the box functionality. It's already at a price point that is pretty hard to undercut.

Just curious what you have found difficult about it? I have never edited the FX6. When using the Panasonic S1 with a C70, C100, and ARRI Alexa, I will say the S1 was my least favorite. It was super noise free compared to the rest but I know the FX6 has that going for it as well.

[barefoot_dp]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:32 PM, TomTheDP said:

Just curious what you have found difficult about it? I have never edited the FX6. When using the Panasonic S1 with a C70, C100, and ARRI Alexa, I will say the S1 was my least favorite. It was super noise free compared to the rest but I know the FX6 has that going for it as well.

Random colours way too saturated. Really muddy shadows. Waxy skin tones. A simultaneous green and magenta tint to different parts of the image (how is that even possible?). And it always seems kind of hazy, as though there was condensation on the lens the whole time or something.

This is with multiple different cameras and operators, both with log and various colour profiles, across different projects and in different lighting conditions and climates (from San Francisco to Sumatra). The first time I came across S1H footage was as the post supervisor on a series in Hawaii and I honestly thought it was a condensation issue. I was constantly checking his camera for signs of fog, even got him to change filter sets entirely in case that was the issue.

[barefoot_dp]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:46 PM, Robert Patts said:

Why is that? I exclusively use the S1H and have had no problems in post at all.

Exclusively using it might be the reason you've had no problems. I can get it to look nice, but I can never get it to look "right" next to all the other cameras.

[barefoot_dp]

On 1/14/2023 at 4:19 AM, currensheldon said:

What I meant by my favorite 4k, 24fps under $10k is ANY camera under $10k at ANY price.

Cameras that I like the image more than the FX6 under $10k includes the C70, for sure, but also the C200 (in raw), S1H, S1, S5/S5 II, Pocket 6k, Pocket 4k, EVA-1, Z-Cam F6, Red Komodo, etc. Pretty much any camera that has come out in the last 4-years is better than the FX6/FX3/A7sIII image IMO. Sony's colors have improved and their DR and frame rates are very nice, but the image still looks digital to me and the colors a touch dead. LOVE the form factor of the FX6 though.

I think we're at the point where the image from most new cameras is good enough. Most pros in the mid-sector (corporate, lifestyle, web videos, social content, docs, some commercials, etc) understand that once you hit a certain level of image quality, other factors are far more important. They'll be more concerned about things like: Can I hand the footage off to another editor/agency and they'll know exactly how to handle it? Can I hire eight of them locally at short notice for a multi-cam shoot?  Does it still work if I need to shoot something that's not my regular style (this is where the Sony really shines as the FX6 is so versatile)? Will most AC's or 2nd shooters I hire know the camera well already? Are producers going to specifically be looking for owner/ops with this camera? If my lens gets smashed, can I find a replacement to buy/borrow/rent pretty quickly? These are the questions that form the difference between quality output, or a profitable business. 

These are the reasons why Sony dominates this particular market segment right now. The point I was making is that, unless you're providing all of these things to a user as well, then it's going to take a lot more than just offering 8K or "better colour" in order to convince them to buy something else instead.

Pure image output matters more in the higher and lower ends. On the lower end, a lot of the logistical problems disappear as you're only every concerned about yourself, your own camera and your own workflow. And at the higher end, budgets allow for cameras that answer all the questions above while also providing the very best IQ possible. Panasonic probably realise this and know that trying to make an FX6 competitor would be an uphill battle.

[Django]

6 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Random colours way too saturated. Really muddy shadows. Waxy skin tones. A simultaneous green and magenta tint to different parts of the image (how is that even possible?). And it always seems kind of hazy, as though there was condensation on the lens the whole time or something.

This is with multiple different cameras and operators, both with log and various colour profiles, across different projects and in different lighting conditions and climates (from San Francisco to Sumatra). The first time I came across S1H footage was as the post supervisor on a series in Hawaii and I honestly thought it was a condensation issue. I was constantly checking his camera for signs of fog, even got him to change filter sets entirely in case that was the issue.

Yikes. This along side the thread on Vlog transform issues is a total deal-breaker for an eventual Panasonic switch I was entertaining. These types of issues can be maddening although mixing and matching different camera footage is always a nightmare for me personally.

5 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

I think we're at the point where the image from most new cameras is good enough. Most pros in the mid-sector (corporate, lifestyle, web videos, social content, docs, some commercials, etc) understand that once you hit a certain level of image quality, other factors are far more important. They'll be more concerned about things like: Can I hand the footage off to another editor/agency and they'll know exactly how to handle it? Can I hire eight of them locally at short notice for a multi-cam shoot?  Does it still work if I need to shoot something that's not my regular style (this is where the Sony really shines as the FX6 is so versatile)? Will most AC's or 2nd shooters I hire know the camera well already? Are producers going to specifically be looking for owner/ops with this camera? If my lens gets smashed, can I find a replacement to buy/borrow/rent pretty quickly? These are the questions that form the difference between quality output, or a profitable business. 

These are the reasons why Sony dominates this particular market segment right now. 

Agreed 100%. Also why I invested in a Sony FS7 + lens system couple years ago. 

I've learned to appreciate the camera as a workhorse but still it feels utilitarian. 

I don't feel the need to upgrade to an FX6 and will probably just get an FX30 as a B-cam.

That being said, for smaller more personal projects and photography I remain faithful to Canon which is my preferred system (aside from a few stints with Nikon/Fuji). I just sold my R6 though and will most likely upgrade to either R5/R5C/R3.

But the Sony dominance is scary, it goes beyond just the pro video industry. When I show up with my Canon for a video shoot I get strange looks sometimes by random non pro people and even comments like " You're not using a Sony?". People are just kinda brainwashed to think video = Sony. Which ends up kind of being the case in the end!

[barefoot_dp]

I'm not currently a Sony user but am looking at adding an FX30 as well (mostly for use in a waterhousing).

If that's how people react when they see you without a Sony, it just shows how much Canon dropped the ball in the video department. They were the go-to for DSLR video since the 5DmkII, to the point where EF lens ownership was pretty much universal even among FS7 shooters.

Of course the R5 seems to be a decent come back but they've got a lot of ground to claw back now.

[Django]

Tell me about it, I was there for the whole DSLR video revolution. But then Sony came in with the mirrorless FF revolution with A7S in 2015 and boy did it take long for Canon to join in and catch up. EOS R (2018) had that weird 1.7x crop. Then R5/R6 (2020) were plagued with overheat issues. I mean it basically took until 2022 (R5C/R6ii/R7) to start having non overheating no compromise hybrids from Canon. Like we're just finally there in Canon land, so yeah of course they lost a lot of ground in the mirrorless video sector. They've been trashed in this forum alone for years, still have somewhat of a bad rep. 

Panny are in their own world I feel. Very loyal customer base. Mostly solo indie shooters. I know a few jumped over to BM. They have been ultra slow to adapt to PDAF needs so I think lost a few others to competition but with S5ii and on-going releases will probably gain them back. Solo operators really like their cameras and I understand why. Great video features, reliable hardware, always at a competitive price.

[TomTheDP]

22 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Random colours way too saturated. Really muddy shadows. Waxy skin tones. A simultaneous green and magenta tint to different parts of the image (how is that even possible?). And it always seems kind of hazy, as though there was condensation on the lens the whole time or something.

This is with multiple different cameras and operators, both with log and various colour profiles, across different projects and in different lighting conditions and climates (from San Francisco to Sumatra). The first time I came across S1H footage was as the post supervisor on a series in Hawaii and I honestly thought it was a condensation issue. I was constantly checking his camera for signs of fog, even got him to change filter sets entirely in case that was the issue.

Interesting, I almost exclusively was using emotive colors LUTs as well as over exposing by 2 stops. But yeah it's never been my favorite image straight out of camera. I think I would still give that to Canon. 

[Matthew Capowski]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:22 PM, currensheldon said:

The Ronin 4D is also brilliantly designed and if it didn't have the gimbal on the front, I would buy it in a heartbeat. 

What issue does the gimbal being at the front create for you?

[currensheldon]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:22 AM, Matthew Capowski said:

What issue does the gimbal being at the front create for you?

Just always having a gimbal is the issue. I like gimbals and the Ronin 4D, but it's not the look I'm always after. With that said, the camera design, with the dual handles, with focus on the handle itself, is brilliant. Same with the monitor mount, the wireless video transmitter placement, the battery (though I would prefer v-mount since I already have those). It's just a very well-designed camera. BUT, don't always want a gimbal.