Arri goes 6K 65mm with the Alexa 65 at CINEC in Munich

[Nikkor]

 

focal reducers don't give the same rendering as a bigger sensor.  the reasons?

 

medium format + 80mm f2.8 has the dof of an 80mm f2.8.  It's still an 80mm lens.

 

full frame + speed booster + 80mm f2.8 lens = 50mm f2 lens.  no longer an 80mm and no longer renders the gradation between in and out of focus subjects.  The field of view and dof will be the same.  but the rendering will be distinctly different.    

 

That's pseudo science and you know it.The focal reducers may introduce aberrations, but they just modify the trayectory of the rays behind the lens, the lens in front and the real objects don't change.

http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_focal_length.html

 

Same lens design, twice the size, twice the focal length. If you put a focal reducer behind the second one the focal length will change, the lens and the angles and the entrance pupil will still be the same size.

The look doesn't come from some magical property inside the number 80.

[richg101]

That's pseudo science and you know it.The focal reducers may introduce aberrations, but they just modify the trayectory of the rays behind the lens, the lens in front and the real objects don't change.

http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_focal_length.html

 

Same lens design, twice the size, twice the focal length. If you put a focal reducer behind the second one the focal length will change, the lens and the angles and the entrance pupil will still be the same size.

The look doesn't come from some magical property inside the number 80.

 

The proof will be in the pudding.  I for one hope a good quality medium format focal reducer comes out.  But not for the aesthetic benefits - of which there will be none over a good quality 135 format lens.  I'd hope if one comes out it delivers good enough optical quality to transfer undegraded the image circles from my hasselblad lenses onto the a7r's 36mpx sensor - which only a few 135 format lenses can fulfil.   But i cant see it happening unless suddenly the world's stocks of 110mm f2 planars is multiplied by 1000 and they start selling for £250.  only then will it seem worthwhile to manufacturers for the reasons you are hoping to achieve.  Even then, on full frame the 85mm f1.4 will be similar to a 110mmf2 + focal reducer.

 

It's not science or drawings i am using to back up my opinions.  I'm just going by my own experiences.  We all know an aps-c sensor + focal reducer looks nothing like a full frame sensor.  it's similar, but it's not the same IMO.  Phase One, Leaf etc wouldnt be making medium format sensors if there were no difference would they?   

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I think what Rich is seeing is because of the high quality of the lenses designed for bigger formats. For example, an 80mm 2.8 on medium format looks better than a 50mm 1.4 on full frame because the performance of a 50mm 1.4 wide open is usually crap anyway. Lenses perform worse the bigger the iris gets, therefore with a bigger sensor like that it's easier to get to very shallow dof without opening the iris too much, giving higher performance in sharpness, colour fringing, chromatic abberation, colour, contrast, etc
But all things being equall, including the lens performance and the sensor performance, I believe an 80mm 2.8 will produce the same image as a 50mm 1.4 on full frame.

[richg101]

I think what Rich is seeing is because of the high quality of the lenses designed for bigger formats. For example, an 80mm 2.8 on medium format looks better than a 50mm 1.4 on full frame because the performance of a 50mm 1.4 wide open is usually crap anyway. Lenses perform worse the bigger the iris gets, therefore with a bigger sensor like that it's easier to get to very shallow dof without opening the iris too much, giving higher performance in sharpness, colour fringing, chromatic abberation, colour, contrast, etc
But all things being equall, including the lens performance and the sensor performance, I believe an 80mm 2.8 will produce the same image as a 50mm 1.4 on full frame.

 

You have made a very valid point.  it could be that the quality of a medium format lens is contributing to the difference in look.  All I know is that on my forbes tests i am running a far from optimal setup.  lots of glass, lots of chance for errors and aberrations however despite all this the aesthetic still looks different to anything else.  

 

one of the initial shots in the Master is another great way to show the look - when he is cutting the coconuts under the tree.  nothing like it. 

[Nikkor]

The proof will be in the pudding.  I for one hope a good quality medium format focal reducer comes out.  But not for the aesthetic benefits - of which there will be none over a good quality 135 format lens.  I'd hope if one comes out it delivers good enough optical quality to transfer undegraded the image circles from my hasselblad lenses onto the a7r's 36mpx sensor - which only a few 135 format lenses can fulfil.   But i cant see it happening unless suddenly the world's stocks of 110mm f2 planars is multiplied by 1000 and they start selling for £250.  only then will it seem worthwhile to manufacturers for the reasons you are hoping to achieve.  Even then, on full frame the 85mm f1.4 will be similar to a 110mmf2 + focal reducer.

 

It's not science or drawings i am using to back up my opinions.  I'm just going by my own experiences.  We all know an aps-c sensor + focal reducer looks nothing like a full frame sensor.  it's similar, but it's not the same IMO.  Phase One, Leaf etc wouldnt be making medium format sensors if there were no difference would they?   

The differences from Fullframe to smaller formats aren't as big, it seems like the benefits grow exponencially as you increase the sensor size (have a look at large format stuff).

I can imagine that the differences you see come more from bad optical quality rather than from different dof behaviour. Anyway, I think it's interesting and I'd love to see some samples of yours ;)

 

And medium format firms won't use a focal reducer for many reasons, being the lack of mirror the primary one. An aspherical speedbooster should give enough quality.

 

Oh, don't forget about the cz 80 2 ;)

 

Anyway this deserves it's own thread, this one is about the ARRI.

[Hans Punk]

'A 4k bayer sensor does not give you 4k. To get a TRUE 4k image you need to start at 6k +, what really matters is dynamic range and colour'. - Geoff Boyle

 

Alexa 65 therefore will probably be the best looking TRUE 4k digital camera to many, as they are capitalising on their proven/ superior colour science knowledge, superb development with Sony for their sensor technology and camera build quality acquired from almost 100 years in the film industry.

 

The larger format look is what will set it apart from the competition...at least until Panavision release what is up their 70mm sleeve.   

 

Alexa 65 was used (probably only for testing) on the new Star Wars film, comparison with imax acquisition/ projection no doubt.

[Chris Gibbs]

You have made a very valid point.  it could be that the quality of a medium format lens is contributing to the difference in look.  All I know is that on my forbes tests i am running a far from optimal setup.  lots of glass, lots of chance for errors and aberrations however despite all this the aesthetic still looks different to anything else.  

 

one of the initial shots in the Master is another great way to show the look - when he is cutting the coconuts under the tree.  nothing like it. 

 

This is an age-old still photographers debate and worthy of a Phd thesis..........

[Superka]

The camera of this type can influence the framing. More wide-angle composition would be used in any kind of movie: drama, action, nature documentary. And that's good!

[RobertoSF]

'A 4k bayer sensor does not give you 4k. To get a TRUE 4k image you need to start at 6k +, what really matters is dynamic range and colour'. - Geoff Boyle

 

My thoughts exactly. The video where Geoff Boyle said this is very much worth watching:

 

[andy lee]

Nice one Arri - the logical next step up for them.

 

they have decided to release their own sets of rehoused Hasselblad medium format lenses (Made by Zeiss from recollection)

 

• 24mm T4.8
• 28mm T4
• 35mm T3.5
• 50mm T3.5
• 80mm T2.8
• 100mm T2.2
• 150mm T3.2
• 300mm T4.5
• 50-110mm T3.5-4.5

Mathew Duclos has added a pic of them here

http://matthewduclos.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/line_05-e1411327451426.jpg?w=700&h=362

 

well the price of good Medium Format lenses just went up........I've been banging on about these on this forum to you all as they are superb especially the Carl Zeiss Medium formet lenses .......get buying .....Hasselblad, Pentax, Mamiya and Russian KMZ Kiev lenses

 

everyone should have a Zeiss 80mm f2.8 Biometar - one of the classic best lenses ever made IMHO!!

 

This camera is rental only from Arri so its serious film kit only - but if it ignites people to use medium format lenses on their cameras then thats good ! you will be suprised how good they are......and still quite cheap on ebay !!

[Nikkor]

They will only rent the camera by themselfs, not even sell it to other rentals. It's very unlikely that medium format glass prices are going to rise because of this.

[Tim Naylor]

Regarding availability of the alexa65 I really hope its cost renders inaccessible to guys shooting commercials and other lower end stuff.  I see too many low profile things shot on Alexa and it devalues the look when you go to the movies.  I don;t want a Asda / Walmart advert to look like a movie.

 

It would be really good if arri keep this away from low profile stuff in the same way the alexa studio is positioned out of reach of small time stuff.  And the same as Panavision's prestige

 

I miss going to the cinema and being wowed every time.  It seems only the case with movies by P T Anderson and Nolan that movies feel like movies nowadays.  

I don't think upgrading formats for the masses degraded anything, it just polished turds. Personally, I don't care who gets their hands on the tech because everyone has the ability to make shine or stink regardless of budget. If you don't believe me, watch  Far and Away, shot on 65mm with Tom Cruise. Perhaps one of the most expensive turds of all time. I would've loved to see Aronofsky's 16mm no budget gem, PI shot on 65mm over that anyway.

[Tim Naylor]

They will only rent the camera by themselfs, not even sell it to other rentals. It's very unlikely that medium format glass prices are going to rise because of this.

Guaranteed, every major rental house will have one. Hopefully, it'll supplant 3D as the new tech trend.

[sunyata]

wait, i thought that's what 4k was supposed to do..