Z9 on test - N-RAW no better than H.265?

[Andrew Reid]

It is time for a good old fashioned EOSHD article. Everything you’ve seen so far on YouTube is meaningless - yes it is.

Check out a new novelty on the web... with my WRITTEN BLOG POST!

https://www.eoshd.com/news/is-n-raw-real-raw-nikon-z9-under-the-spotlight-at-eoshd

 

[mercer]

@Andrew Reid Interesting test. A few moons ago, I briefly owned the a6500 shortly after I sold my first BMMCC, and I was surprised at how juicy the sLog3 files were. I felt they were the closest to raw video that I had seen. And when shot with the monochrome setting, in sLog3, the banding that plagued those 8bit sLog cameras seemed to disappear. So I'm not too surprised how well the A1 holds up against the competition.

I recently bit the bullet and bought an FP. I've been having some fun shooting with it, but I also find it to be a miserable camera in some ways. Due to its size, I want the camera to stay small and stealthy, but I think that was the design flaw with the camera. If Sigma had just made the camera a bit bigger and allowed for internal 12bit, 4K raw, I never would have missed the smaller size and the overall experience would have been better. Like your disdain for external monitors, I despise external SSDs just as much, especially when only a select few have proven to work with the FP. That said, it's a really nice image and I am enjoying using my Minolta lenses with it.

But at the end of the day, I don't know if it's much better than my 5D3. Sure it has higher resolution and doesn't need specific lenses to get a really sharp detailed look, but I believe the overall IQ from my 5D3 beats the FP and the cameras are a bit too similar in a lot of ways to keep both.

With all of that said, I've noticed you mention the XH2 recently and am very intrigued. I'd be curious to see how the ProRes holds up in this test if you have the time or inclination.

I've only recently gotten my FP rigged up to where I feel comfortable using it, so I want to test it a bit more... maybe with a short film or something, but unless something really clicks, I may have to look elsewhere for an upgrade. The XH2 is interesting, but so are some of the Canon offerings... R5, R5C and of course the R3 which I doubt I'll ever be able to afford.

Thanks again for the test and I hope all is well with you and your family!!!

[Andrew Reid]

500Mbit in HEVC is like having 1000Mbit in H.264, so that A6500 (which I still have btw) was 100Mbit and still stood up well, so the a1 truly has some thick files going on.

X-H2 ProRes would be an interesting comparison.

I love the idea of RAW but it never seems to compel me to use it that much.

Sigma Fp-L 12bit needs a test though...as does the 5D3 Magic Lantern as that truly was proper RAW!

[BTM_Pix]

Before and after of me reading that piece...

 

[Andrew Reid]

You could say it's a bit of a dogs breakfast?

[hyalinejim]

I haven't shot RAW since switching from the 5D3 ML to GH5 in 2017. For me, 10bit log is enough. And with an ACES workflow it's easy to make RAW-like linear corrections to exposure and white balance, which was a big attraction of RAW to me.

Yes, there's probably more textural detail in the RAW files. But keeping file sizes down means a lot, especially at higher resolutions.

[cookietub]

This is a superb article! Very, very useful. Would it be possible for you to upload the camera original clips somewhere? I would love to play with them in Davinci.

[TomTheDP]

Very odd. I'd definitely be interested in how the Sigma FP-L in 12 bit compares to the Sony. 

[newfoundmass]

With all the hubbub over raw I do think we're pretty close to it being irrelevant for all but major productions. The images we're able to record these days internally, without using raw or an external recorder, are really good. The gap has narrowed so much.

[Django]

Something weird going on with N-RAW. Why is there NR going on? Latitude test kinda disappointing. Sigma FP deserves better (12-bit CDNG). Wish Canon RAW was also in the mix, interesting to hear positive comments on your short experience with R3. Its a camera I'm still considering..

[Llaasseerr]

I have looked at 8-bit log footage recorded from a Sony a7s to an Atomos recorder in UHD 4k ProRes, managed through an ACES workflow and then output to HD and viewed on a full size cinema screen and it looked truly stellar. I was amazed at how much that camera could do. But it doesn't stop me from preferring to shoot raw where possible to get that extra chroma information, ability to do exposure changes and apply more aggressive film emulation all without breaking the image as quickly. The "thick neg" comment applies.

Since mid-range cameras have more or less bypassed internal 4:4:4 log recording options, possibly due to file size, raw recording is a decent "workaround". It is after all 1/3 the size of an equivalent RGB image, with generally less aggressive compression applied that something like XAVC.

Recording log 4:4:4 ProRes is still an amazing option though that is basically indistinguishable from raw, but it seems to be an endangered species.

[Caleb Genheimer]

I’ve found this to be true (as many likely have,) by having and then ditching a Blackmagic camera. I had a GH5S, which was 10-bit, and quite good, but the P4K seemed definitely better. Then as I used the raw, I learned more about how to properly utilize ACES and color manage my workflow. When I applied that kind of workflow to the GH5S, the differences lessened to one of dynamic range more than anything else, so when the S1H was out and tested with market leading dynamic range and full V-Log, I sold both of the other cameras, and never looked back. 
 

The S1H V-Log is a thicker neg than the P4K has, even if the P4K is “raw,” and the S1H is not. It’s also why I’ve avoided external “raw” recorders for the S1H, it’s borderline snake oil, you don’t get any benefit from it. The color fidelity of 10-bit wrapped 12-bit is plenty if the codec and bitrate are healthy. The only reason I want to see sensors start running at higher than 12-bit (or DGO implementation) is for the bump in DR. 
 

Low level noise as looked at here is really where the truth resides. I can look at my S1H footage in this way, and there’s definitely some NR going on to wrangle the shadow detail, but the end result is also pleasing, so I’ll take it. Clean organic shadow detail like people long for will always be the territory of ALEV level sensors, and the prosumer cams will always be using a few little tricks to go that “last mile” to a cinematic image. But if they’re good at the tricks, is the minor difference worth the major difference in price? For most, probably not. 
 

As always, EOSHD peels back the layers of chaff to take a close look at what’s really going on under the hood of these cameras.

Thanks Andrew!

[Andrew Reid]

15 hours ago, cookietub said:

This is a superb article! Very, very useful. Would it be possible for you to upload the camera original clips somewhere? I would love to play with them in Davinci.

Will do, I might reshoot the Sigma Fp-L in 12bit first to give it a fair crack of the whip against the more expensive bros.

[Andrew Reid]

4 minutes ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

It’s also why I’ve avoided external “raw” recorders for the S1H, it’s borderline snake oil, you don’t get any benefit from it.

True, true.

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Recording log 4:4:4 ProRes is still an amazing option though that is basically indistinguishable from raw, but it seems to be an endangered species.

That is because ProRes 422 HQ in LOG looks just as nice, with smaller file?

ProRes on the Nikon Z9 is my next thing to test... Would be interesting if that comes out better than N-RAW wouldn't it!

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I’ve found this to be true (as many likely have,) by having and then ditching a Blackmagic camera. I had a GH5S, which was 10-bit, and quite good, but the P4K seemed definitely better. Then as I used the raw, I learned more about how to properly utilize ACES and color manage my workflow. When I applied that kind of workflow to the GH5S, the differences lessened to one of dynamic range more than anything else, so when the S1H was out and tested with market leading dynamic range and full V-Log, I sold both of the other cameras, and never looked back. 
 

The S1H V-Log is a thicker neg than the P4K has, even if the P4K is “raw,” and the S1H is not. It’s also why I’ve avoided external “raw” recorders for the S1H, it’s borderline snake oil, you don’t get any benefit from it. The color fidelity of 10-bit wrapped 12-bit is plenty if the codec and bitrate are healthy. The only reason I want to see sensors start running at higher than 12-bit (or DGO implementation) is for the bump in DR. 
 

Low level noise as looked at here is really where the truth resides. I can look at my S1H footage in this way, and there’s definitely some NR going on to wrangle the shadow detail, but the end result is also pleasing, so I’ll take it. Clean organic shadow detail like people long for will always be the territory of ALEV level sensors, and the prosumer cams will always be using a few little tricks to go that “last mile” to a cinematic image. But if they’re good at the tricks, is the minor difference worth the major difference in price? For most, probably not. 
 

As always, EOSHD peels back the layers of chaff to take a close look at what’s really going on under the hood of these cameras.

Thanks Andrew!

I think one of the issues is the S1H I believe only does 12 bit linear out. This really shouldn't give much benefit over 10 bit log. If it was 14-16 bit RAW you'd probably notice more of a difference. 

I think an advantage of RAW is if you are using different cameras on one project and or using Final cut or Premiere which don't really have ACES options. 

[hyalinejim]

35 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

or using Final cut or Premiere which don't really have ACES options. 

You can fudge an ACES-like workflow in Premiere using LUTs from LutCalc or Resolve:

I do this on every project to fix exposure and WB. It's a bit cumbersome but it works! In my example, one LUT transforms log to ACES. Then you can use Brightness and Contrast effect in a linear fashion, and Fast Color Corrector for global WB. Then a second LUT back to V-Log (but you could go to Rec709 or V709 or whatever from here). 

And if FCPX can load multiple LUTs then you could do the same there. If you have a nice look LUT for your log footage, then brightness, contrast and WB are really all that are needed to grade, I've found. Which makes things incredibly quick.

[Caleb Genheimer]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I think one of the issues is the S1H I believe only does 12 bit linear out. This really shouldn't give much benefit over 10 bit log. If it was 14-16 bit RAW you'd probably notice more of a difference. 

I think an advantage of RAW is if you are using different cameras on one project and or using Final cut or Premiere which don't really have ACES options. 

What? How is that an issue? Every hybrid runs the sensor at 12-bit linear. You have to get into Canon DGO, ALEV, or a real cine cam to get anything better.

[OleB]

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

You can fudge an ACES-like workflow in Premiere using LUTs from LutCalc or Resolve:

I do this on every project to fix exposure and WB. It's a bit cumbersome but it works! In my example, one LUT transforms log to ACES. Then you can use Brightness and Contrast effect in a linear fashion, and Fast Color Corrector for global WB. Then a second LUT back to V-Log (but you could go to Rec709 or V709 or whatever from here). 

And if FCPX can load multiple LUTs then you could do the same there. If you have a nice look LUT for your log footage, then brightness, contrast and WB are really all that are needed to grade, I've found. Which makes things incredibly quick.

FCPX can, as many as you want and all correction tools can be positioned at every place in between, before or after as well. 😉

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

What? How is that an issue? Every hybrid runs the sensor at 12-bit linear. You have to get into Canon DGO, ALEV, or a real cine cam to get anything better.

I am not saying it's an issue, just a reality. 12 bit linear RAW gives a similar amount of information as 10 bit log. This is why I assume people aren't seeing a difference when shooting linear 12 bit over the internal 10 bit on the S1H. Bitrate could still be an issue as 150-200mbps these H265/H264 codecs are doing isn't a lot of data to work with. 

 The Fuji XH2s does 14 bit ADC when shooting 4k up to 30fps. I am not quite sure on Blackmagic cameras. The URSA 4.6K had a similar dual gain sensor as the Alexa but I don't know if the color depth was the same. 

Atomos claims this about their recorders with the A7S3/FX3
"The Ninja V captures tremendous detail with 12-bit log files with over 68 billion color graduations! This is converted from the camera’s 16-bit linear RAW output. This process has the advantage of being visually indistinguishable from 16-bit Linear recording, while still having practical data rates."

Obviously the good old 5D MK3 does 14 bit with magic lantern, if that counts. 

ARRI does this with their cameras, they package 14 bit into a 12 bit log as there is really no benefit to 14 bit linear over 12 bit log, at least according to them.