Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist 12G: a better investment than a cinema camera?

[Matt Kieley]

So I've been using a bmpcc 4k for nearly 4 months now, and while I love the image from it, the braw codec, and the UI, it definitely has some limitations as a camera with a 5 year old sensor and lacks things I've missed from the GH5 and G9 like IBIS and the ergonomics (I'm not a fan of the P4K body/ergonomics). With the new S5 cameras being released, the used prices of the original have already gone down to tempting prices, so I've been thinking about getting the original S5 and using it with the BM Video Assist 12G. I figured that could be sort of the best of both worlds between mirrorless and cameras the p4k: ibis, braw, prores, bm touch screen UI, less processed/sharpened looking image, an XLR audio interface, options to use SSDs or SD cards, high quality monitor, false color. I was actually thinking maybe the Video Assist would be a worthy investment because I can always use it with different cameras if I decide to switch to something else later. It's almost like a cine cam brain but without being limited to one sensor or lens mount, you can basically use any camera (though not all offer raw, you could still record prores). It turns the S5 into a FF 6K braw cine camera/audio interface it ibis for around $2K. The only tradeoff is rigging and powering a separate device. I was hoping to hear of the user experience from anyone who has used this setup, or if there are caveats I'n not aware of, etc. 

[FHDcrew]

3 minutes ago, Matt Kieley said:

So I've been using a bmpcc 4k for nearly 4 months now, and while I love the image from it, the braw codec, and the UI, it definitely has some limitations as a camera with a 5 year old sensor and lacks things I've missed from the GH5 and G9 like IBIS and the ergonomics (I'm not a fan of the P4K body/ergonomics). With the new S5 cameras being released, the used prices of the original have already gone down to tempting prices, so I've been thinking about getting the original S5 and using it with the BM Video Assist 12G. I figured that could be sort of the best of both worlds between mirrorless and cameras the p4k: ibis, braw, prores, bm touch screen UI, less processed/sharpened looking image, an XLR audio interface, options to use SSDs or SD cards, high quality monitor, false color. I was actually thinking maybe the Video Assist would be a worthy investment because I can always use it with different cameras if I decide to switch to something else later. It's almost like a cine cam brain but without being limited to one sensor or lens mount, you can basically use any camera (though not all offer raw, you could still record prores). It turns the S5 into a FF 6K braw cine camera/audio interface it ibis for around $2K. The only tradeoff is rigging and powering a separate device. I was hoping to hear of the user experience from anyone who has used this setup, or if there are caveats I'n not aware of, etc. 

You may want to consider a used S1 instead. Not that much more expensive, but it does offer full-size HDMI. 

 

Alternatively if you like autofocus you could get a used Nikon Z6, get the RAW upgrade and be able to shoot BRAW with a full frame sensor and AF. But it’s not 6k. Prores RAW is line skipped. Not sure if the same holds true for BRAW but my guess is that’s the case. 

[FHDcrew]

Just now, FHDcrew said:

You may want to consider a used S1 instead. Not that much more expensive, but it does offer full-size HDMI. 

 

Alternatively if you like autofocus you could get a used Nikon Z6, get the RAW upgrade and be able to shoot BRAW with a full frame sensor and AF. But it’s not 6k. Prores RAW is line skipped. Not sure if the same holds true for BRAW but my guess is that’s the case. 

To be fair though from sample footage I’ve seen the line skipped footage looks fine

[FHDcrew]

 

Looks very organic to me 🙂

[Robert Patts]

I have ran with the S5 + VA for a long time. The only real benefit of BRAW is file size and playback speed. You will get no additional benefits in DR or "motion cadence"

[Matt Kieley]

7 hours ago, Robert Patts said:The only real benefit of BRAW is file size and playback speed.

That’s the main reason I want the VA; the manageable files sizes and editing of braw. It’s so smooth in premiere on my MacBook Air M1. Reminds me of working with R3D a bit. 

[stephen]

I took this path more than a year ago for several reasons.
    1. BRAW. Using BMPCC 4K realized how good BRAW is  
            - various degree of compression and file size
            - ability to adjust white balance
            - great support in Davinci Resolve,
            - smooth playback, scrubbing and editing

One of the main reason I've choose Panasonic, instead of Sony or Canon was support of external BRAW recording. Only Panasonic and Nikon cameras had it. But Panasonic support is better as it gives you 6K and no line skipping, auto focus was not a problem for me because can use manual focus for 100% of what I shoot

The other reason was price. Even then Panasonic S5 almost new from the box but second hand costed me 1100 Euro. Cheaper than BMPCC 4K which new came at 1400 Euro. If we add speedbooster and monitor price is also pretty much comparable to Panasonic S5 + Video Assist

    2.     BMPCC 4K is great but it's difficult to shoot without external monitor. Maybe it's just me but without a good 1500+ nits monitor which sits at 45 to 90 degree to the top of the camera or camera + cage + top handle it was really difficult and painful to shoot. In general I find that the most convenient, practical and useful setup for professional or serious shoots is camera + cage + top handle + monitor. It adds weight which is good for stability and it makes shooting so much easier. If we add the monitor to BMPCC 4K, then in terms and weight and size Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist, suddenly became almost identical to BMPCC + monitor and even more compact in terms of length. Panasonic S5 can be used on most gimbals, BMPCC 4K on just a few. If I stayed only with BMPCC 4K had to buy a new gimbal. Sometimes it is great to be able to shoot with one small camera and lens, similar to the reporter style of Henri Cartier-Bresson. But BMPCC 4K is not good at this. It lacks EVF and is too big in length. Panasonic S5 on the other hand is. For those shoots I can skip the recorder and use 10bit 4:2:2 internal codec which is also very good or simply put the recorder in a bag and have a small and tiny HDMI cable hanging on the side.

    3. BMPCC 4K sensor size. I used Metabones speedbooster x0.64 and in term of DOF and bokeh this camera and setup were great. However crop factor is kind of weird - 1.21, can't use my primes lens sets on their specific focal length. No big deal but still kind of problematic. With Panasonic S5 any vintage lens has exactly the same focal length / angle degree it was designed for.

Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist 5'' 12G solves most of BMPCC 4K shortcomings like poor battery life, lack of EVF, IBIS and smaller sensor size. Plus it is a great photo camera on it's own. Plus it could be used without BM Video Assist 5'' and will still give great image quality.

Shortcomings of Panasonic S5 + Video Assist: Micro HDMI, always kind of problematic, needs special attention and mini cage with a clamp to hold it on place or micro HDMI to HDMI adapter clamped to a cage as well. You need a bigger bag in order to be able to put camera and recorder together as one piece but same is true for BMPCC 4K + monitor. You have to start / stop two different devices.

In general I find  S5 + BM Video Assist to be more convenient and enjoyable camera setup than BMPCC 4K + monitor + speedbooster. New S5 II solves the micro HDMI port problem and adds tracking auto focus. Can we call it cinema camera ? Yes, with BRAW it certainly is capable to deliver high picture quality.

[newfoundmass]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:24 AM, FHDcrew said:

You may want to consider a used S1 instead. Not that much more expensive, but it does offer full-size HDMI. 

This is my thought as well, as a S5 user. The mini HDMI is one of the reasons I don't use external monitors very often on my S5 bodies and will use my GH5 instead when I need to.

[Walter H]

@stephen or anyone else, would you be willing to point me/us to some of the footage you have shot with a Panasonic and the Video Assist? I'd be really interested to see.

I've been a 10-bit 422 VLOG shooter both with an S1 and an S5. I'd love to see what else might be available.

[markr041]

2 hours ago, Walter H said:

@stephen or anyone else, would you be willing to point me/us to some of the footage you have shot with a Panasonic and the Video Assist? I'd be really interested to see.

I've been a 10-bit 422 VLOG shooter both with an S1 and an S5. I'd love to see what else might be available.

Well, this is close: S5 + Atmos Ninja V for 5.9K ProRes RAW:

YouTube used to show this in 5K. Now it is 4K. I am making no claim that ProRes RAW is better than BRAW; it is just what I had on hand.

[Walter H]

Tonality and detail is gorgeous as are the colors for the most part. Thanks for sharing.

I do see some of that cyan tilt to the sky that other reviewers have mentioned with raw footage. But I am also not finding a lot of footage online from the past six or so months and I'm curious how this has all developed and what people have learned.

Still interested to see some BRAW/Panasonic footage.

[HockeyFan12]

I forget where I found these:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mrqsresrq5gtt7e/AAD8UC4K2fFJkcW-B_zFtkM0a?dl=0

It looks great, but not sure how much better it is than 6K HEVC on the S1. 

[Happy Daze]

On 3/2/2023 at 1:15 PM, Walter H said:

@stephen or anyone else, would you be willing to point me/us to some of the footage you have shot with a Panasonic and the Video Assist? I'd be really interested to see.

I've been a 10-bit 422 VLOG shooter both with an S1 and an S5. I'd love to see what else might be available.

These were put together from a few clips shot during a couple of days of leisure time!

Panasonic S1, Sigma 150-600mm, Blackmagic Video Assist 12g 5inch, 5.9K BRAW 12:1.

I use BRAW now for shooting stock shots, doubt I could go back to other formats.

 

 

[stephen]

@Walter H - Yes can post some clips shot with Paansonic S1/S5 + BM Video Assist. Have many but the best would be to make some new test shots - one using internal 10bit 4:2:2 recording and same scene using BRAW and Video Assist. It would be easier for you to see the difference and decide if external recording is worth for you. Just give me a 7-8 days and I'll do the tests and upload source files on google drive or something similar and post the links here.

[FHDcrew]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:57 AM, stephen said:

simply put the recorder in a bag and have a small and tiny HDMI cable hanging on the side.

[FHDcrew]

Just now, FHDcrew said:

On 2/23/2023 at 2:57 AM, stephen said:

simply put the recorder in a bag and have a small and tiny HDMI cable hanging on the side.

@stephenwhat bag do you use?  Does the recorder ever get hot for you?  I tried this once (stupid idea) with a Fanny pack and my Atomos Ninja V got MUCH too hot!

[Shooper]

I keep considering changing my S1/Ninja V combo but nothing makes me jump.  I was on old Nikon lenses, now mostly Lumix S and looking forward to autofocus from an S5iiX.  I've shot a feature and a feature doc now on the combo.  

[Michael S]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:01 PM, Walter H said:

I do see some of that cyan tilt to the sky that other reviewers have mentioned with raw footage. ...

Isn't this inherent to working with raw? When your blue channel clips, but your green hasn't yet, then as the brightness of the sky increases further the colour will shift to green as green can still increase in value, but blue can't. Some clever highlight colour recovery trickery is needed to restore the colour to it's proper value but that has to be done while debayering the footage. Lowering the exposure to avoid individual colour channel clipping would also work but as no cameras in this range have raw exposure tools you can't accurately check for this. The best you can do is check for colour skew but if in-camera this highlight restoration is being used than you still can't check for clipped channels properly. Maybe some raw recorders/monitors have raw exposure tools?

[Walter H]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:23 AM, stephen said:

@Walter H - Yes can post some clips shot with Paansonic S1/S5 + BM Video Assist. Have many but the best would be to make some new test shots - one using internal 10bit 4:2:2 recording and same scene using BRAW and Video Assist. It would be easier for you to see the difference and decide if external recording is worth for you. Just give me a 7-8 days and I'll do the tests and upload source files on google drive or something similar and post the links here.

Brilliant. And thanks to others for footage already posted!

[stephen]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:30 PM, FHDcrew said:

@stephenwhat bag do you use?  Does the recorder ever get hot for you?  I tried this once (stupid idea) with a Fanny pack and my Atomos Ninja V got MUCH too hot!

@FHDcrew Have 3 bags
  - Mantona bought from Amazon - can fit there S5 with cage + top handle + video assist + some lenses
  - Vanguard BIIN 25 - https://www.amazon.com/Vanguard-BIIN-25-Shoulder-Camera/dp/B005LUL0CQ?th=1
    can fit there S5 + Video Assist 5'' 12G + 3 lenses. Video Assist mounted on the hot shoe with HDMI cable + 2 NP-F small batteries can fit as a whole piece. Or Video Assist can be detached from the camera. When not shooting it will stay on its bottom part with screen to the side wall of the back and vents on top. Almost never shoot with Video Assist in this position. Usually will turn it on its back at the bottom of the bag. This way can keep the bag open and still peek from time to time to the screen.
In general prefer to shoot with Video Assist on top of the camera and use it as a monitor too. Only when for some reasons want to keep low profile and not draw attention will leave it in the bag. Usually my takes are not more than 1-2 min and Video Assists stays relatively cool. It still blows some hot air but metal frame and good ventilation helps to keep it from becoming too hot. In the few occasions that used it this way it never became too hot. Had Ninja V for few months before buying Video Assist. From memories Ninja V is hotter than Video Assist and fan is louder. Saw on youtube somebody claiming the same.

IMHO there are many bags with similar to Vanguard BIIN 25 dimensions that can be used.