Anamorphic lens or Dog Schidt Optiks w/ oval aperture?

[harharj]

I want to get everyone's opinion on this.  Should I buy anamorphic lens or a dog schidt lens w/ the oval aperture?  I'm wondering why people still go crazy on ebay for anamorphic lens when you can get the dog schidt lens with the option of a 1.5x or 2x oval apeture and is single focus.  Essentially, both the anamorphic and DSO lens produce the same results as far as oval bokeh and flares, I would think.  Is there something I'm missing?  You would think that people would go with the DSO lens option as opposed to anamorphic lens seeing as how anamorphic lens require more such as double focus, clamps and other addition things to make them work properly.  So, do anamorphic lens have more desirable characteristics (other then the whole crop/squeeze factor) then the DSO lens that I don't know about?

[Caleb Genheimer]

There's some mojo there in the real thing that can't be faked. Squeeze is varied throughout the focus range, there's some interesting compression and decompression as a real anamorphic racks focus.

Also, I don't care how fancy your streak filter is, it doesn't look anything like a real anamorhic flare.

There's a real hassle to working with the real-deal lenses, but we do it because it can't be faked. Hopefully sooner rather than later, there will be practical animorphic solutions. There are lenses from SLR Magic, as well as focus units for use on projection lenses, from Rectilux and FM.

[Caleb Genheimer]

Not to bash DSO, though. If there ever is a full set of lenses from DSO, I'll be the first to buy 'em

[Hans Punk]

looks like there is enough mojo in this?

Jeremy Snell used DSO lenses throughout both as taking lenses to iscorama and Kowa as well as 1.5x oval aperture intercut with the genuine anamorphic.

Brad Ragland shot this using DSO FF58 with oval aperture on 5D/7D (no anamorphic used):

I know Rich's aim is not to even to pretend an attempt to replace true anamorphic, but it's looking more and more difficult to tell the difference these days as the refinements to his lenses mimic anamorphic artefacts extremely loyaly. Last years low contrast craze is Not everyone's taste but Rich can keep the contrast levels 'clean' if required, and so many other aberation options can be made to suit the customer.

Horses for courses I guess, as anything goes regarding aesthetic choice. But personally I'd recommend if totally new to anamorphic shooting, then maybe start with buying Andrew's shooters guide, buy a Sankor or Kowa duel focus lens to appriciate real anamorphic properties and love/hate issues involved with a duel focus system. Shoot horizontal streak flares for two months of night traffic and sunlight coming through trees in the park, get that out of your system. Then get a DSO lens with 2x oval and realise that it's all about the stretched bokeh/ lower contrast and more subtle rainbow flares, not the horizontal streaks on every light source....but as I say Horses for courses.

You can have the best of both worlds by mixing and matching like the Jeremy Snell - 'Imagine' video does above, using FF58 as taking lens to real anamorphic front - and intercut on its own with an oval aperture.

I'm off to feed my Horse.

[andy lee]

you can get a very very good anamorphic effect using Pentax 110 lenses add an oval aperture in the micro 4/3 adapter back and a vertical piece of fishing line and then just shoot as normal - it looks great and you just swop out the Pentax lenses on the front of the adapter as all the gubbins is in the adapter , you have 18mm,24mm 50mm and 70mm lenses at f2.8 to play with

frame to 2.39 add black bars in post - and most people will never know...

cheap and looks nice!

[valid]

you can get a very very good anamorphic effect using Pentax 110 lenses add an oval aperture in the micro 4/3 adapter back and a vertical piece of fishing line and then just shoot as normal - it looks great and you just swop out the Pentax lenses on the front of the adapter as all the gubbins is in the adapter , you have 18mm,24mm 50mm and 70mm lenses at f2.8 to play with

frame to 2.39 add black bars in post - and most people will never know...

cheap and looks nice!

Why specifically pentax 110 lenses though?

[Bioskop.Inc]

But personally I'd recommend if totally new to anamorphic shooting, then maybe start with buying Andrew's shooters guide, buy a Sankor or Kowa duel focus lens to appriciate real anamorphic properties and love/hate issues involved with a duel focus system. Shoot horizontal streak flares for two months of night traffic and sunlight coming through trees in the park, get that out of your system. Then get a DSO lens with 2x oval and realise that it's all about the stretched bokeh/ lower contrast and more subtle rainbow flares, not the horizontal streaks on every light source.....

This...especially the last bit.

Its not all about flares & in fact the flares can end up ruining perfectly good shots - you don't want people to say "look it flares!", you want them to be enveloped by your beautiful framing etc...

Also, shooting car headlights, torches etc...is the most boring, pointless, waste of time I can think of.

Dual focus lenses aren't that hard to use, it forces you to be more inventive with your shot selection & you end up learning the basics about framing/shot types far quicker.

[andy lee]

Why specifically pentax 110 lenses though?

because the adapter for micro 4/3 has a nice area in the back you can put an oval apperture and vertical fishing line - then you just shoot as normal and swop the lenses over on the front of the adapter - I cant think of another system that does that , this simply  - thats why - it works well

[richg101]

I'll chip in if I may...:)

 

I literally don't know which I prefer and I'm actually building these things.  The reason dso started was to add a degreee of dirtiness to the iscorama (which at the time i wanted more gragginess from, with the singla focus and sharpness left intact!).  The 1.5x oval was created to add to the look of the 'rama and give a 2x oval look, which also sharpening the helios marginally.  

 

A wide open helios 44 + iscorama is indeed a beautiful thing that will never quite be matched with an oval aperture alone - 58mm, f2 and a 1.5x widening of horizontal fov as well as the physicality of the big hunks of glass from the 'rama' is a hard thing to match with anything.  The ff58 does not deliver horizontal streaks so if this is important then the ff58 will not do what you need.

 

The benefits of the oval aperture is that you gain sharpness by a huge amount (since the aperture on a 2x oval is stopped down by around 1.5 stops), but you maintain some of the shallowness of an f2 lens due to the oval remaining the same height as the original f2 aperture.  Then keep single focus capability, and keep size down - particularly on a full frame sensor since 58mm is relatively wide and you'd need an 85mm taking lens on a full frame snesor if using an anamorphic.  end result is a very similar fov.  though the 85mm will look 'bigger'.

 

The new FF38 attachment is a nice addition to both the ff58 and the helios 44.  since it widens fov while actually sharpening the image quite drastically.  If you have the pixels to spare, a big sensor or speed booster, and enough light to cope with the 1.5 stops slower aperture due to the oval, and can afford to crop, the ff58(2xoval) + FF38 wide angle attachment will stand head and shoulders above the iscorama for 95% of image quality criteria while being a lot less of a financial and creative burdon - when i take the iscorama out it always causes worry which always seems to impact on workflow.

 

I'm still gonna grab a 'fm module' when they are available so I guess that says it all:)  you cant beat real anamorphic if it's really needed!

[valid]

I'll chip in if I may... :)

 

I literally don't know which I prefer and I'm actually building these things.  The reason dso started was to add a degreee of dirtiness to the iscorama (which at the time i wanted more gragginess from, with the singla focus and sharpness left intact!).  The 1.5x oval was created to add to the look of the 'rama and give a 2x oval look, which also sharpening the helios marginally.  

 

A wide open helios 44 + iscorama is indeed a beautiful thing that will never quite be matched with an oval aperture alone - 58mm, f2 and a 1.5x widening of horizontal fov as well as the physicality of the big hunks of glass from the 'rama' is a hard thing to match with anything.  The ff58 does not deliver horizontal streaks so if this is important then the ff58 will not do what you need.

 

The benefits of the oval aperture is that you gain sharpness by a huge amount (since the aperture on a 2x oval is stopped down by around 1.5 stops), but you maintain some of the shallowness of an f2 lens due to the oval remaining the same height as the original f2 aperture.  Then keep single focus capability, and keep size down - particularly on a full frame sensor since 58mm is relatively wide and you'd need an 85mm taking lens on a full frame snesor if using an anamorphic.  end result is a very similar fov.  though the 85mm will look 'bigger'.

 

The new FF38 attachment is a nice addition to both the ff58 and the helios 44.  since it widens fov while actually sharpening the image quite drastically.  If you have the pixels to spare, a big sensor or speed booster, and enough light to cope with the 1.5 stops slower aperture due to the oval, and can afford to crop, the ff58(2xoval) + FF38 wide angle attachment will stand head and shoulders above the iscorama for 95% of image quality criteria while being a lot less of a financial and creative burdon - when i take the iscorama out it always causes worry which always seems to impact on workflow.

 

I'm still gonna grab a 'fm module' when they are available so I guess that says it all:)  you cant beat real anamorphic if it's really needed!

 

Just out of curiosity - how do you make the oval aperture? Do you place a second disc with an oval aperture behind/near the original (circular) aperture? Or do you replace the original aperture entirely?

 

PS are you going to modify other lenses apart from helios-44 in the future? Maybe mir-1 37mm if you wanna go down the similar aesthetic route ;-)

[richg101]

Just out of curiosity - how do you make the oval aperture? Do you place a second disc with an oval aperture behind/near the original (circular) aperture? Or do you replace the original aperture entirely?

 

PS are you going to modify other lenses apart from helios-44 in the future? Maybe mir-1 37mm if you wanna go down the similar aesthetic route ;-)

 

The original aperture is completely removed and in its place sits a very thin and precisely milled brass insert.  There are a number of other people doing similar things, but they just seem to go for the laser cut acrylic route and as such the actual ovals are never as perfect due to the cut always being a bit graggy.

 

Rather than modify the limited range of alternative focal lengths from the same era and source, I have developed a ultra high quality wide angle attachment (the FF38), which FF58 users can install on their lens to widen the fov to 38mm.  all of the lens character of their ff58 remains intact, but the fov is widened.  and as it happens the wide angle attachment improves sharpness.  Moderate barrel distortion is visible, but nothing too bad!

 

 

[richg101]

The original aperture is completely removed and in its place sits a very thin and precisely milled brass insert.  There are a number of other people doing similar things, but they just seem to go for the laser cut acrylic route and as such the actual ovals are never as perfect due to the cut always being a bit graggy.

 

Rather than modify the limited range of alternative focal lengths from the same era and source, I have developed a ultra high quality wide angle attachment (the FF38), which FF58 users can install on their lens to widen the fov to 38mm.  all of the lens character of their ff58 remains intact, but the fov is widened.  and as it happens the wide angle attachment improves sharpness.  Moderate barrel distortion is visible, but nothing too bad!

 

 

 

Andrew Reid has been testing one of the prototypes over the last few months and should be subjecting it to a review soon:)

[ken]

I have no idea what purpose the dog schidt or DSO for.  But 2x anamorphic lens for pictures are getting higher resolution or sharper for sure.  Because of the compressed vertical pixels, compare to the way of crops, which lost half of effective pixels, if the picture needs wide screen to show for the best result.

[richg101]

I have no idea what purpose the dog schidt or DSO for.  But 2x anamorphic lens for pictures are getting higher resolution or sharper for sure.  Because of the compressed vertical pixels, compare to the way of crops, which lost half of effective pixels, if the picture needs wide screen to show for the best result.

 

I have to disagree there.  And I also think as time moves on the resolution gain will become less and less of an argument for anamorphic.  

 

For example...  (and I'm purely saying this from an a7r 36mpx point of view, which is around 8k, and over 14 stops of dr in 'cinema terms', so about 5 years ahead of what we're currently seeing from most 24p cinema cameras today)  Even the Iscorama degrades the resolving power of a taking lens quite drastically wide open at say f2.  It's still usable, and beautiful too, but it doesnt resolve very high levels of detail when compared to the spherical lens on its own.  

 

I'd say that nowadays with 'true 1080p' and 4k, the degradation in image detail from cropping away 1/3rd of the pixels is less harmful than putting any anamorphic lens on the front of a system.  All but the cinelux and similar are not delivering very high levels of resolving power.  2 years ago when everyone was shooting 1080p that looked like todays 720p the benefit of anamorphic for resolution gains was there. - since cropping away footage no more detailed than 720p is gonna result in lower res than 720p.  but IMO the gains are no longer valid now we're able to shoot true 1080 which is often oversampled from 4k (gh4, a7s, etc) which is visibly 2 to 3 times more detailed than what we were getting from 5dmk2's!.

[andy lee]

I agree with Rich , I'd take a dog schidt with oval apperture any day over an anamorphic lens , its so much quicker and easier to use too'

I haven't shot any anamorphic for over a year now - I dont get asked for it......

But I am getting asked for 2.35 framed and black bars shot on spherical (I call it Serio Leone style as he shot 2 perf spherical 'techniscope')- its quicker and faster to work and looks just as good to a client.

[Hans Punk]

Shooting 2x Anamorphic for a 'usable' resolution benefit is only reserved for Alexa studio or other 4:3 sensor areas...or dare I say it full academy celluloid stuff that used to run through a gate by motor driven sprockets (I forget what it's called).

[Caleb Genheimer]

Really, it's a bit apples and oranges. Sure, they do similar things, but not altogether the same things. I think as Rich pointed out, DSO is PERFECT behind an Iscorama. The 1.5x is more practical, but its effects less pronounced, and that's where the DSO lens can help with its oval aperture.

I'm very happy this FM lens is a possibility though, because (as Rich said), the cinelux are very sharp, and it'd be a dream to single focus one of those bad boys on front of my C/Y Zeiss glass and one of those new 4k cams

[Caleb Genheimer]

Also, what's up with the flare hate around here?! Everything in moderation, fellas :)

Just because the new Star Trek had too many flares doesn't suddenly make them bad, just like everyone and their mum shooting on DSLR didn't make shallow DOF a bad thing either.

[richg101]

I'm very happy this FM lens is a possibility though, because (as Rich said), the cinelux are very sharp, and it'd be a dream to single focus one of those bad boys on front of my C/Y Zeiss glass and one of those new 4k cams

 

Of all the anamorphics, the cineluxes (and similar) will be the only ones where true res gains are seen.  I'm astounded by how sharp the one I grabbed recently is.  - i really hope the FM module glass is up to scratch!  A contax 100mm f2 and a cinelux will be a madman

[nahua]

 

 

@richg101 - That's real nice quality work you have there.  I'm going to order that FF58+ FF38 combo soon.  I love my Helios 44 but I wish it had a wider FOV, especially with the new Metabones Speedbooster on GH4.  Is the Trump the only one with focus gears on it?  That look like a removable focus gear in the pic.