11 year old 5d MK3 superior to newest releases

[mercer]

@TomTheDP I assume you mean an external monitor? If so, then I'm not sure, I've never used one with it. I know you need to use a different firmware for it... I think Canon 1.23 and then the coinciding ML Firmware. The LCD works fine for me. I use the Raw Histogram with Over Exposure Warning to judge exposure... it works good enough for my needs. 

[stephen]

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst.

Canon 5D Mark III raw video in crop mode for me is PRACTICALLY UNUSABLE:
    - there is no live view framing, you can't see on a monitor of even the tiny screen what you shoot
    - rolling shutter is more than 33 ms
    - camera is unreliable, had many freezes and you don't know if your recording is going to stop and especially when it is going to stop.
    - as your ISO increases your dynamic range and color palette decrease
    - software hack is always in development and movement, you don't know what bug your are going to hit and when

Tried many times to use it in crop mode and always ended in frustration. 1080p is the best, can have external monitor and proper framing, reliable, simple, 35mm lens has the same angle of view as on full frame. Use super scale in Resolve or Video Enhance AI to upscale to 4K and it is good enough. There you can shoot in 14 bits no problem.

Why we don't see 14bit video in hybrid cameras ? Simple answer is:
    - no demand - just look how many good video in RAW shot with Canon 5D Mark III hack are on youtube. For more than 12 years. Interest and usage are slim.
    - still some challenges to shoot and process such a massive amount of data. I know for a fact that in my (relatively small) country TV series are shot on Arri Alexa not in RAW but on Prores 4:2:2. Without compression very few people or companies are willing to deal with RAW video.  BRAW or ProRes RAW, Red RAW - yes no problem. Cinema DNG files even with lossless compression - few are willing to deal with data volume and workflow that comes with it.

I honestly doubt that anybody can see the difference between 14 and 12 bit color, especially on the monitors and screens we are using. I tested it on Canon 5D Mark III some time ago and couldn't. 14bit vs 12 bit, color science when related to RAW video and even in 10bit 4:2:2 - all this is purely subjective. All those claims of superiority falls apart when doing a blind test. Can give as example several published on internet tests.

I tried recently iPhone 14 for video after seeing several people on youtube recommending it. Shot on same location and lighting condition where some time ago shot a small personal project / clip with Canon 5d Mark III in RAW video crop mode. Yes you can't switch off sharpening, noise reduction and tone mapping for better dynamic range on iPhone but Oh boy how easy it was to get great picture quality, how good image stabilization was. Apply some grain and film emulation using dehancer and it is good enough. Efforts vs results comparable to Canon 5D Mark III are 100% on iPhone side.

I am thinking seriously to get one of those new Android smartphones with 1'' sensor like Vivo X90 Pro Plus and shoot raw video on a smartphone for personal projects. It can do 4K 60p RAW and I believe this is only in 10bit DNG. Apply some grain, film emulation  in dehancer and image look gorgeous to me. It is a lot easier than Canon 5D Mark III and it the end results will be equally impressive if not better. And this camera is with you all the time 🙂

Whole history of photography is a move toward ease of use and convenience once certain acceptable image quality has been achieved. Image quality by the way matters mostly to us, people who shoot not to the people and wide audience who will watch it. That's also a proven fact we should never forget.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst.

Canon 5D Mark III raw video in crop mode for me is PRACTICALLY UNUSABLE:
    - there is no live view framing, you can't see on a monitor of even the tiny screen what you shoot
    - rolling shutter is more than 33 ms
    - camera is unreliable, had many freezes and you don't know if your recording is going to stop and especially when it is going to stop.
    - as your ISO increases your dynamic range and color palette decrease
    - software hack is always in development and movement, you don't know what bug your are going to hit and when

Tried many times to use it in crop mode and always ended in frustration. 1080p is the best, can have external monitor and proper framing, reliable, simple, 35mm lens has the same angle of view as on full frame. Use super scale in Resolve or Video Enhance AI to upscale to 4K and it is good enough. There you can shoot in 14 bits no problem.

Why we don't see 14bit video in hybrid cameras ? Simple answer is:
    - no demand - just look how many good video in RAW shot with Canon 5D Mark III hack are on youtube. For more than 12 years. Interest and usage are slim.
    - still some challenges to shoot and process such a massive amount of data. I know for a fact that in my (relatively small) country TV series are shot on Arri Alexa not in RAW but on Prores 4:2:2. Without compression very few people or companies are willing to deal with RAW video.  BRAW or ProRes RAW, Red RAW - yes no problem. Cinema DNG files even with lossless compression - few are willing to deal with data volume and workflow that comes with it.

I honestly doubt that anybody can see the difference between 14 and 12 bit color, especially on the monitors and screens we are using. I tested it on Canon 5D Mark III some time ago and couldn't. 14bit vs 12 bit, color science when related to RAW video and even in 10bit 4:2:2 - all this is purely subjective. All those claims of superiority falls apart when doing a blind test. Can give as example several published on internet tests.

I tried recently iPhone 14 for video after seeing several people on youtube recommending it. Shot on same location and lighting condition where some time ago shot a small personal project / clip with Canon 5d Mark III in RAW video crop mode. Yes you can't switch off sharpening, noise reduction and tone mapping for better dynamic range on iPhone but Oh boy how easy it was to get great picture quality, how good image stabilization was. Apply some grain and film emulation using dehancer and it is good enough. Efforts vs results comparable to Canon 5D Mark III are 100% on iPhone side.

I am thinking seriously to get one of those new Android smartphones with 1'' sensor like Vivo X90 Pro Plus and shoot raw video on a smartphone for personal projects. It can do 4K 60p RAW and I believe this is only in 10bit DNG. Apply some grain, film emulation  in dehancer and image look gorgeous to me. It is a lot easier than Canon 5D Mark III and it the end results will be equally impressive if not better. And this camera is with you all the time 🙂

Whole history of photography is a move toward ease of use and convenience once certain acceptable image quality has been achieved. Image quality by the way matters mostly to us, people who shoot not to the people and wide audience who will watch it. That's also a proven fact we should never forget.

I found too many issues with the experimental builds as well. I know you have to shoot 2:35 to shoot the 3.5K but, as you said, there's a crop and the Live View is wonky. The compressed 14bit 1080p raw files are good and doubles your storage but I found they too will freeze once in a while. I think there have been some advances since I tried it a couple years ago, but there seems to be more interest in the eos-m now.

The stable 1080p 14bit MLV Raw files from the Nightly Builds are the camera's strong suit and all I shoot with it.

It truly has a special image.

If you can't see the difference between iPhone footage and raw video... then God bless you and roll with that iPhone. You'll be much happier. 

As far as lack of good, quality videos from the 5D3 ML Raw... I don't know... maybe you're not looking hard enough because there are a ton out there.  But yes, it is a hack, and it became really popular 10 years ago when they figured it out but it was still very buggy at the time so a lot of people that tried it didn't want to deal with the storage or any other issue that arose so you see a lot of short test videos.

The 1080p is completely stable now and works like any other camera does except for playback... which I don't really use anyway.

This camera is for low budget filmmaking and personal projects. I don't think it would/could ever replace a dedicated cinema camera or mirrorless or even phone if you don't want to put the time into it.

With all that said, a filmmaker named Pete Ohs has made a couple films using it and his recent release, Jethica, was shot on it, it premiered at SXSW and it received a theatrical release...

 

[SRV1981]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I found too many issues with the experimental builds as well. I know you have to shoot 2:35 to shoot the 3.5K but, as you said, there's a crop and the Live View is wonky. The compressed 14bit 1080p raw files are good and doubles your storage but I found they too will freeze once in a while. I think there have been some advances since I tried it a couple years ago, but there seems to be more interest in the eos-m now.

The stable 1080p 14bit MLV Raw files from the Nightly Builds are the camera's strong suit and all I shoot with it.

It truly has a special image.

If you can't see the difference between iPhone footage and raw video... then God bless you and roll with that iPhone. You'll be much happier. 

As far as lack of good, quality videos from the 5D3 ML Raw... I don't know... maybe you're not looking hard enough because there are a ton out there.  But yes, it is a hack, and it became really popular 10 years ago when they figured it out but it was still very buggy at the time so a lot of people that tried it didn't want to deal with the storage or any other issue that arose so you see a lot of short test videos.

The 1080p is completely stable now and works like any other camera does except for playback... which I don't really use anyway.

This camera is for low budget filmmaking and personal projects. I don't think it would/could ever replace a dedicated cinema camera or mirrorless or even phone if you don't want to put the time into it.

With all that said, a filmmaker named Pete Ohs has made a couple films using it and his recent release, Jethica, was shot on it, it premiered at SXSW and it received a theatrical release...

 

Looked epic!  That was eos-m with ML?? 

[Attila Bakos]

3 hours ago, stephen said:

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst.

Do you have the latest custom build from Danne? For me 3584x1730 at 14bit is continuous, as long as I don't have clipped highlights. 12bit is hard to break.
 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, SRV1981 said:

Looked epic!  That was eos-m with ML?? 

No that was 5D Mark III with 1080p ML Raw. 

[SRV1981]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

No that was 5D Mark III with 1080p ML Raw. 

Are there sub $5k cameras in the market today that present similar images? 

[Ty Harper]

Going on 9 years as a ML Raw user and have never had an issue. Started with the 5D MK II and now I have two 5D MKIIIs. 

[SRV1981]

Just now, Ty Harper said:

Going on 9 years as a ML Raw user and have never had an issue. Started with the 5D MK II and now I have two 5D MKIIIs. 

What’s the trade offs? 

[Ty Harper]

22 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

What’s the trade offs? 

Aside from the obvious features the 5D MKIII lacks like DPAF and IBIS for example, there are none that I can think of when I decide to reach for it over say my R5C. The biggest issue was the large files and workflow which became a non-issue once I got a Mac Mini M1.

[fuzzynormal]

Dang.  Now I sorta feel like shooting a short with the old 5DII sitting on the shelf.  

Although it's true that I never really wanted to dabble in RAW for editing back in the day --as the workflow was off-putting. Might be worth learning something old and make it new again.

[rosco]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

15 hours ago, rosco said:

 

I mean I probably wouldn't shoot with a Classic if my only concern was audience perception

Exactly! In the end of the day the audience doesn’t care.  You can shoot in 8 bit 420 or 422 if you wanted to.

[mercer]

3 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Are there sub $5k cameras in the market today that present similar images? 

Yeah, the 5D Mark III. Haha.

I haven't checked the used prices, but I assume you can find one in great condition for around 1000 USD... maybe more, maybe less. I bought mine new, 5-6 years ago for around $2000.

Now if you're referring to a new camera you can buy today that will look similar...

I don't know. The Sigma FP has a nice image downscaled to 1080p and its full frame, but not 14bit. The R5 and R5C both have nice images, but I've never used them.

I guess it depends on your needs.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

Dang.  Now I sorta feel like shooting a short with the old 5DII sitting on the shelf.  

Although it's true that I never really wanted to dabble in RAW for editing back in the day --as the workflow was off-putting. Might be worth learning something old and make it new again.

The workflow is so simple now. MLV App is straightforward for correction and "CST" and you can export to ProRes so you can edit in any program you want. Or you can use MLVFs and open up the files right in Resolve as if they were any other video file from any other camera.

Btw, I loved your B&W short film. I watched it on Christmas morning and it brought a smile to my face. I've been meaning to comment on it, but now I'm so far removed, I'd like to watch it again. The mouse was a whacko, cool idea that was done so well and made me think of the old Bass and Rankin Christmas cartoons.

[mercer]

I may have shared these frames before somewhere on the forum, but I'm in the middle of finishing this short film all shot with the 5D III, using a nightly build in 1080p and with a Canon FD 50mm 1.2 L lens I had modified by Simmod so it will work with EF mount...

[PPNS]

so for the ml to be useful in any capacity you have to pixel bin anyway lol?

[TomTheDP]

9 hours ago, stephen said:

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst.

Canon 5D Mark III raw video in crop mode for me is PRACTICALLY UNUSABLE:
    - there is no live view framing, you can't see on a monitor of even the tiny screen what you shoot
    - rolling shutter is more than 33 ms
    - camera is unreliable, had many freezes and you don't know if your recording is going to stop and especially when it is going to stop.
    - as your ISO increases your dynamic range and color palette decrease
    - software hack is always in development and movement, you don't know what bug your are going to hit and when

Tried many times to use it in crop mode and always ended in frustration. 1080p is the best, can have external monitor and proper framing, reliable, simple, 35mm lens has the same angle of view as on full frame. Use super scale in Resolve or Video Enhance AI to upscale to 4K and it is good enough. There you can shoot in 14 bits no problem.

Why we don't see 14bit video in hybrid cameras ? Simple answer is:
    - no demand - just look how many good video in RAW shot with Canon 5D Mark III hack are on youtube. For more than 12 years. Interest and usage are slim.
    - still some challenges to shoot and process such a massive amount of data. I know for a fact that in my (relatively small) country TV series are shot on Arri Alexa not in RAW but on Prores 4:2:2. Without compression very few people or companies are willing to deal with RAW video.  BRAW or ProRes RAW, Red RAW - yes no problem. Cinema DNG files even with lossless compression - few are willing to deal with data volume and workflow that comes with it.

I honestly doubt that anybody can see the difference between 14 and 12 bit color, especially on the monitors and screens we are using. I tested it on Canon 5D Mark III some time ago and couldn't. 14bit vs 12 bit, color science when related to RAW video and even in 10bit 4:2:2 - all this is purely subjective. All those claims of superiority falls apart when doing a blind test. Can give as example several published on internet tests.

I tried recently iPhone 14 for video after seeing several people on youtube recommending it. Shot on same location and lighting condition where some time ago shot a small personal project / clip with Canon 5d Mark III in RAW video crop mode. Yes you can't switch off sharpening, noise reduction and tone mapping for better dynamic range on iPhone but Oh boy how easy it was to get great picture quality, how good image stabilization was. Apply some grain and film emulation using dehancer and it is good enough. Efforts vs results comparable to Canon 5D Mark III are 100% on iPhone side.

I am thinking seriously to get one of those new Android smartphones with 1'' sensor like Vivo X90 Pro Plus and shoot raw video on a smartphone for personal projects. It can do 4K 60p RAW and I believe this is only in 10bit DNG. Apply some grain, film emulation  in dehancer and image look gorgeous to me. It is a lot easier than Canon 5D Mark III and it the end results will be equally impressive if not better. And this camera is with you all the time 🙂

Whole history of photography is a move toward ease of use and convenience once certain acceptable image quality has been achieved. Image quality by the way matters mostly to us, people who shoot not to the people and wide audience who will watch it. That's also a proven fact we should never forget.

I wouldn't say slim, the Magic Lantern community was pretty large. People went through the trouble of making a hack and dealing with the insecurities of using it. People still use it to this day. 10 bit and 12 bit RAW are selling points, so I am not sure why 14 bit wouldn't be.

Side by side comparisons aren't particularly useful imo. Compile hours and hours of footage from a project, being able to compare tons of different lighting scenarios and real practical limitations. Do that with an Iphone and than any of the 10 bit SLR's on the market and you'll quickly see the difference in post. Same goes jumping from a prosumer 10 bit image to any actual cinema camera.

That is my opinion obviously from my personal experience.

[mercer]

To be honest, probably 90-95% of the people on this forum should not shoot with the 5D3 and ML Raw. It obviously causes a strange behavior and response.

There are so many other cameras out there that are probably more practical. For most people on the forum, I would suggest a camcorder.

The experience will be much more enjoyable and the results will look beautiful on YouTube. You can even add a LUT and you'll have instant cinema. Turn the camera sideways, press record and you'll be the envy of TikTok.

[fuzzynormal]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

made me think of the old Bass and Rankin Christmas cartoons.

Funny you should say that because the mouse character was always supposed to be animated, but the budget wouldn't allow for it.  So the director put a puppet on her hand and we did it that way.

The film is free to watch this week on the website:  www.agiftforallagesfilm.com

[stephen]

@Attila Bakos - Yes latest Danne build. I don't see improvements in bit rate, mostly in stability. Don't see from where this improvement in bit rate will come. 2-4 years ago ML team managed to overclock SD cards improving writing speed from 25-30Mb to 65Mb. Bit rate on  5D Mark III is now 80-85Gb with a good CF card + 65 Gb from SD card = 150Gb/s Didn't heard of any major development that would break this mark. As said we have this speed for at least 2-3 years.

Yes at 1080p resolution RAW video, camera is quite nice to work with,  not at 1.6 or closer to this crop modes. Tried hard to solve the framing problem using external optical viewfinder or even a smartphone as a second camera/screen. It was always pain in the neck. 10 years ago Canon ML RAW video hack was a breakthrough, now when we have blackmagic pocket 4K and 6K, can't find any reason to shoot with Canon 5K Mark III in crop mode. Blackmagic cameras have better dynamic range and they keep it trough all ISO range, very good rolling shutter,much easier to use, better monitoring capabilities, reliability. Kept 5D as a memory of the DSLR era and possibly some personal projects at 1080p but so far didn't shot any.

Don't want to put down ML team, they did and still do a great job, I am grateful for their time and work, but have to admit and live to reality.

What I've found in my personal experience happens for all video/film productions. Camera cost is only a small and often not a major part of film/video production budget. If one camera is few hundred bucks less expensive than another one but you spend much more time and efforts in post production or when shooting, at the end the less expensive camera will cost you much more. This is even more evident in mid to high end movie/video productions. It is then well understandable why TV series are shot on Alexa but at ProRes 4:2:2. At the end nobody other than probably few professionals will ever notice the small difference in image quality.

Again we tend to overestimate value of image quality while in reality nobody from the non pro large audience will notice it. If for you Canon 5D Mark III RAW video image looks good, great use it, just do not kid yourself it is somehow superior to the rest of modern cameras, while in measurable parameters like dynamic range and rolling shutter it is clearly inferior and for the large audience it really doesn't matter.

@TomTheDP - I wouldn't say slim, the Magic Lantern community was pretty large

It is. Just check how many times is downloaded latest Danne's build or MLV App. 2-3 thousands. And 90% to 95% of  the people will shoot a few test clips and that's it. Few will use it for small and personal projects as Zeek, and even less for commercial / production projects. Compare this to how many BM, Canon, Panasonic, Sony cameras are sold and used each year.

Unless somebody can prove in blind test even among relatively small circle of professionals that 14bit is better compared to 12 bit or even correctly recognized will consider it purely subjective. All tests that I've seen and even participated in indicate the opposite. A local shop did a test with Sony A7 series cameras in their early days. They've shot 10 pictures with different subjects and lighting conditions with Canon, Nikon and Sony A7 12bit compressed format. All 3 cameras were full frame. On screen and on print Canon and Nikon owners were not able to distinguish or guess which pictures were shot with their beloved cameras which they will passionately claim in forums have superior 14bit or whatever colors 🙂 It was completely random. We had some 11-12 years ago Great Zakuto shootout, this one here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZjIz8sB2vg) and so on 🙂