11 year old 5d MK3 superior to newest releases

[Django]

I haven't shot 5D3 ML in many years but the 14-bit colors you get out of that Canon sensor are among the nicest I've ever seen short of an ARRI. There is something about that generation of Canons in general and it gets fully unleashed with ML RAW. 

Blind tests don't mean so much, its when you have the actual footage inside your NLE and push the grade that is when the magic is felt, no pun intended.

Yes we have a multitude of high resolution, high DR cams that shoot 10-bit, ProRes & RAW. Its fantastic and what I use for commercial projects etc. That being said there is no denying 5D3 ML RAW still has incredible mojo despite all the fuss and old sensor limitations. I am probably going to repurchase a 5D3 in the near future just to revisit that camera in general for both stills & ML. I was looking at old pics & footage from it just the other day and was instantly hit by the nostalgia that the images produce. 

C100, C300 & 1DC also have such mojo imo, even on their outdated internal codecs.

[TomTheDP]

9 hours ago, stephen said:

Unless somebody can prove in blind test even among relatively small circle of professionals that 14bit is better compared to 12 bit or even correctly recognized will consider it purely subjective. All tests that I've seen and even participated in indicate the opposite. A local shop did a test with Sony A7 series cameras in their early days. They've shot 10 pictures with different subjects and lighting conditions with Canon, Nikon and Sony A7 12bit compressed format. All 3 cameras were full frame. On screen and on print Canon and Nikon owners were not able to distinguish or guess which pictures were shot with their beloved cameras which they will passionately claim in forums have superior 14bit or whatever colors 🙂 It was completely random. We had some 11-12 years ago Great Zakuto shootout, this one here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZjIz8sB2vg) and so on 🙂

Blind tests aren't of much use. The zakuto blind tests says that a GH1 and 35mm film are equal. So why didn't camera development stop there? It would indicate 10 bit log, 4k, high bitrate, and anything beyond 8 stops of dynamic range, doesn't really matter. Cameras aren't developed or sold on blind tests. I don't think any professional is choosing a camera based on blind tests either. They have certainly offered no use to me.

You can argue IQ has nothing to do with making a pleasing looking image. That is definitely true in many ways. But it has nothing to do with marketing. You can say that marketing is all bullshit. I'd agree with that. 8k is useless for 99% of people yet it is a great buzzword for marketing. You are saying though that 14 bit recording is useless and blind tests somehow prove this.

If you are simply trying to say that 14 bit isn't marketable, that could be true. I am not a marketing specialist.  But camera companies don't use blind tests to market or else they would all be out of business.

In my experience when you actually use a camera on production and work with it through post, then you see a difference. There isn't really much debate there. Can a film look good that isn't shot on a cinema camera? Yes of course. But cameras like ARRI and RED are industry favored by pretty much any DP you would ask.

To me DP's are usually the last people to fall for marketing hype. These people see images constantly from production all the way to the finished product. ARRI isn't favored because of internet blind tests, they are favored because they actually make production and post workflow much easier. I'd love it if my S1 could give me the same image as an Alexa. But from my experience it just doesn't.

If you want a good test of a camera shoot 100 different scenes in all different scenarios, time restraints, lighting conditions, different sized crews, and then color correct and grade all of the shots and scenes. Do that with 5 different cameras and than compare them all. Well that couldn't be put in a little 5 minute youtube video. Stuff that is actually helpful can't be compressed into a little youtube video. Experience gotten from months of shooting and in post gives one a good idea of what matters.

Anyways 14 bit plus capture, even if it is just the readout is the way forward to better IQ imo. The Alexa shooting in 422 is still using a 14 bit readout. That is partially why it looks way better than cameras that are shooting 12 bit linear raw, which is a marketing scam.  12 bit linear raw really doesn't give you any more information to work with than a good 10 bit ALL-I. The advantage is it sometimes gets around the horrid internal processing many cameras do to their 10 bit options for some reason. But it also often reveals how shitty consumer sensors are in the shadows, bad colored noise and banding that is normally hidden by heavy noise reduction.

The Alexa has a 14 bit readout regardless of if you shoot 422 or 444 or RAW.

Anyways I am just expressing my disappointment in camera development. I would extend that disappointment to the high end cameras as well. RED is partially to blame in my opinion. They pushed the whole high resolution band wagon that consumer cameras jumped on. 10 years later and the best camera in the world the Alexa 35 only shoots 4k, while RED releases cameras for 1/2 what they did their previous line-up, with sensors that can't even match ARRI's 5 year old cameras. 13 years ago the Alexa came onto the market, the camera that replaced film essentially. 13 years later it's still the best sensor on the market, only surpassed by ARRI's own Alexa 35.

It's unfortunate resolution got put on the forefront of development instead of color depth, which also leads to increased dynamic range.

Am I saying the 5D MK3 is the pinnacle of image quality? No I am not. But it was capable of giving you a high bitrate 14 bit 1080p image. That was 11 years ago. Why can't we have 14 bit RAW 3K-4K in a small prosumer camera 11 years later. We get the same releases with a MK2 slapped onto it, with micro improvements. Very annoying.

Now you can tell me these are first world problems and I will gladly agree. I am in between projects right now and don't have any kids, so I have the time. And if this forum is not the place to vent about the BS that camera companies do than maybe I am just very confused.

 

[hyalinejim]

Have a look at this thread:

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=24933.0

It's been a while since I shot with ML. But I  remember that when the lower bit depths were introduced I used them, as the slight image quality differences were generally unnoticeable to me.

[Attila Bakos]

11 hours ago, stephen said:

@Attila Bakos - Yes latest Danne build. I don't see improvements in bit rate, mostly in stability. Don't see from where this improvement in bit rate will come. 2-4 years ago ML team managed to overclock SD cards improving writing speed from 25-30Mb to 65Mb. Bit rate on  5D Mark III is now 80-85Gb with a good CF card + 65 Gb from SD card = 150Gb/s Didn't heard of any major development that would break this mark. As said we have this speed for at least 2-3 years.

I just recorded 2 minutes of 3584 x 1730 14bit (I stopped it after 2mins). It was a scene with very fine details from edge to edge, to give the compression a hard time. If you don't ETTR in this mode, you should be fine, I don't know why you only get seconds (I suppose global draw is off).

[stephen]

Just trying to explain in a friendly conversation why IMHO we don't see 14 bit video in hybrid cameras.
Image quality is a process and camera is just a part of this process. Even if we concentrate only on camera IMHO it would be wrong to attribute image quality of a sensor/camera to a single parameter as 14bit color. It's a complex thing.

Correct me if I am wrong but according to this page ARRI RAW is 12bit
https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq#accordion-292364

while Red RAW is 16 bit - https://www.red.com/power-of-red-redcode

Does it mean then that 16 bit Red RAW image quality or Canon 5D Mark III with it's 14 bit color are superior to Arri ? Image quality is different even among Red Cameras. Isn't it ? Red Komodo then is capable of 16bit image. For me this is price point that many can afford.

Wanted to point out also that economics play a significant role in choice of cameras and of course cameras capabilities. For me capabilities vs price when comparing 2000$ cameras with 20000$ or more cameras are hugely in favor of the lower price point cameras. You get ~ 90 or more percent of the image quality for 1/10 or less of the price. Nothing to complain about here.

Of course progress thankfully will not stop and agree that 8K was not the right direction for hybrid camera to go. It was the easiest to achieve and market. I wish to see more cameras with smaller rolling shutter, internal BRAW or ProRes RAW and integrated in camera ND filters more than anything else.

Blind tests are some sort of reality check, far from ideal or strictly scientific but still reality check. So when we give certain qualifications of better or worst we need some sort of starting point for comparison that most can agree on, otherwise it is subjective.

Thankfully we have now great cameras to work with at any price point and if you shoot something interesting and engaging with your Panasonic S1, image quality will not be the decisive factor whether people will like it or not. Nobody and I mean NOBODY will come after and say: "Nice movie but I wish colors were better". It is always good to have this perspective when we dream or wish for new cool tools  🙂 

[Davide DB]

23 minutes ago, stephen said:

Correct me if I am wrong but according to this page ARRI RAW is 12bit
https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq#accordion-292364

I guess you are mixing output format with processing format.

From https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/arri-camera-technology/best-overall-image-quality

Quote

For the absolute best in image quality, for the greatest flexibility in post, and for safest archiving, the raw data from the sensor can be recorded as ARRIRAW files, an increasingly popular option used by feature films, drama series and commercials alike. ALEXA 35 images are processed in 18-bit linear space and recorded as 13-bit log ARRIRAW. Images from all other ARRI digital cameras are processed in 16-bit linear space and recorded as 12-bit log ARRIRAW. Image processing steps like de-bayer, white balance, sensitivity, up-sampling or down-sampling, which are irreversibly applied in-camera for compressed recording, SDI monitor outputs, and the viewfinder image, are not applied to ARRIRAW. All these parameters can be applied to the ARRIRAW image in post.

 

[rosco]

The obsession with IQ is getting out of hand here, 10bit, 12 bit, 14 bit seems to be negligible from the tests.  Story, set design, lighting, sound, music, framing, lenses, etc. are more important then bit depth imo. Possession of Hannah grace 8bit 422(a7sii), 8bit 422 knock knock (1dc) and others released in festivals, streaming platforms proves that.  Obviously people are biased and want the best possible and that’s great but 14 bit image isn’t everything to the overall average audience (same with 8k).  All things subjective, filmmakers can shoot with whatever they want.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, rosco said:

The obsession with IQ is getting out of hand here, 10bit, 12 bit, 14 bit seems to be negligible from the tests.  Story, set design, lighting, sound, music, framing, lenses, etc. are more important then bit depth imo. Possession of Hannah grace 8bit 422(a7sii), 8bit 422 knock knock (1dc) and others released in festivals, streaming platforms proves that.  Obviously people are biased and want the best possible and that’s great but 14 bit image isn’t everything to the overall average audience (same with 8k).  All things subjective, filmmakers can shoot with whatever they want.

1080p raw video with 12ish stops of DR is hardly an obsession in IQ.

Isn't the goal to get more DR, more bitrate, more color information? I, believe, @TomTheDP 's point in this post is that a group of part time coders were able to unlock, and write, a fairly stable firmware which opened a zeitgeist of cinema settings and 14bit raw video on a prosumer camera, so surely official firmware from one of the manufacturers could easily match their efforts from 11 years ago

12bit video can display up to 68 billion shades of color, 14bit can display up to 4 trillion. Surely, those numbers will be closer when the image goes through the pipeline to an eventual rec709 delivery, but to say it will have zero effect on the final image just isn't true.

If it doesn't matter to you... cool! It doesn't mean it isn't important to someone else.

That said, I agree that story is king. But as you suggested, any aspect that supports the story and the director's vision is a worthy goal.

[TomTheDP]

7 hours ago, stephen said:

Just trying to explain in a friendly conversation why IMHO we don't see 14 bit video in hybrid cameras.
Image quality is a process and camera is just a part of this process. Even if we concentrate only on camera IMHO it would be wrong to attribute image quality of a sensor/camera to a single parameter as 14bit color. It's a complex thing.

Correct me if I am wrong but according to this page ARRI RAW is 12bit
https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq#accordion-292364

while Red RAW is 16 bit - https://www.red.com/power-of-red-redcode

Does it mean then that 16 bit Red RAW image quality or Canon 5D Mark III with it's 14 bit color are superior to Arri ? Image quality is different even among Red Cameras. Isn't it ? Red Komodo then is capable of 16bit image. For me this is price point that many can afford.

Wanted to point out also that economics play a significant role in choice of cameras and of course cameras capabilities. For me capabilities vs price when comparing 2000$ cameras with 20000$ or more cameras are hugely in favor of the lower price point cameras. You get ~ 90 or more percent of the image quality for 1/10 or less of the price. Nothing to complain about here.

Of course progress thankfully will not stop and agree that 8K was not the right direction for hybrid camera to go. It was the easiest to achieve and market. I wish to see more cameras with smaller rolling shutter, internal BRAW or ProRes RAW and integrated in camera ND filters more than anything else.

Blind tests are some sort of reality check, far from ideal or strictly scientific but still reality check. So when we give certain qualifications of better or worst we need some sort of starting point for comparison that most can agree on, otherwise it is subjective.

Thankfully we have now great cameras to work with at any price point and if you shoot something interesting and engaging with your Panasonic S1, image quality will not be the decisive factor whether people will like it or not. Nobody and I mean NOBODY will come after and say: "Nice movie but I wish colors were better". It is always good to have this perspective when we dream or wish for new cool tools  🙂 

The Alexa does a 14 bit readout. RED does 16 bit. The Alexa uses 12 bit log both in RAW and ProRes. RED uses 16 bit linear. If you look up the difference between linear and log you’ll get it. 

All RED cameras, ARRI, and Sony Venice do either 14 bit or 16 bit readout. 
 

All prosumer cameras like the S1, Sony FX cameras, Canon’s entire lineup do either a 12 bit readout or 10 bit readout. This is why these cameras 12 bit raw performs poorly compared to ARRIs 10 bit, as even when recording 422, ARRI is doing a 14 bit readout. Of course the unique ARRI sensor and color science/processing makes a big difference too. 
 

As someone who’s job it is to give the best picture possible I have shot engaging projects with the S1 and in post have been disappointed in the image. This is what I am saying. I have used a wide variety of cameras on narrative shorts and features. I avoid shooting with low end options unless it’s forced by the budget. It just makes my job harder. 
 

The Komodo is great but it is a cheap sensor being used. If you like side by side tests I’ve done them, Komodo vs Alexa. The Komodo’s lack of dynamic range is apparent and the color science/skin tones are noticeably different. This is when shooting with natural light. The Komodo simply can’t hold onto the highlights. 
 

Blind tests are great for YouTube content but they don’t offer much practical info for using a camera on production. 
 

I do think there is a practical limitation on what is good enough. ARRI is that limitation.  14 bit readout into a 12 bit log, 4k resolution, and about 14 stops of dynamic range. The Alexa 35 goes to 17 stops of dynamic range, a bit overkill but I can see how it would be helpful sometimes. They stuck with 4k resolution and a 14 bit readout. That seems to give you what you’d need in post production. Which has definitely been my practical experience. 
 

I am specifically talking narrative use on production. If one is just shooting their own content it definitely doesn’t matter much. I definitely don’t recommend everyone go pick up an ARRI or RED camera. But for people who do what I do, I usually would. This industry is very niche though and I’m in my own little small niche within it. 

[PannySVHS]

I myself don't adore the S1 in "unlit" settings, whereas i love my bmmcc outside in natural light. Both need to be graded a good deal, but the micro just sings to me. I have done plenty of grading for amateur shortfilms and semipro stuff with semipro equipment. So i recognize differences in cameras color and codec a big deal, just like their response under different conditions.

Got a 5diii because off this forum and the awesome footage which is out there. That is a great treat. The trailer looks beautiful @mercer
I will need advice on cards and settings soon:)

[PPNS]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

1080p raw video with 12ish stops of DR is hardly an obsession in IQ.

Is it raw if youre binning?

[mercer]

2 hours ago, PPNS said:

Is it raw if youre binning?

Yes, I believe uncompressed raw is true raw no matter how it gets down to the final resolution. Look at the difference between 1080p raw from the 5D3 and 1080p raw from the Sigma FP... there's no comparison.

That said, I don't really care how it gets there, all I know is it is the purest image I have ever used... absolutely no noise reduction or sharpening added. You can change the WB from 2800 to 7500, in post, without any degradation whatsoever. It's as pure as it gets at this price point, especially considering it's full frame.

With that said... since you have shown zero interest in the 5D3, then why do you care either?

And finally... It's more raw than compressed BRaw.

[PPNS]

Mercer, if your sensor resolution is 5.7k and you're mushing 3 or 4 pixels together to create an 1.9k image, isn't that literally more extreme processing than any compressed 'raw' codec? you are losing more info, and relying more on guesswork by a machine that isn't very smart. i can kinda see the lack of detail in the images and increased moire? i think ML was a cool concept 10 years ago, but we don't need it anymore. 

the reason why we dont have 14 bit readout is fairly simple, its much more unstable and processor intensive, as well as some sensors not even having the option, while not adding much benefit in the first place, as you can see with that new fuji camera. i think most of you are way too busy discussing things that dont matter much in the first place. what even is mojo?

[TomTheDP]

1 minute ago, PPNS said:

the reason why we dont have 14 bit readout is fairly simple, its much more unstable and processor intensive, as well as some sensors not even having the option, while not adding much benefit in the first place, as you can see with that new fuji camera. i think most of you are way too busy discussing things that dont matter much in the first place. what even is mojo?

We've seen Canon intentionally gimp their own cameras, putting in inferior hardware that would cause overheating. I personally doubt it is an issue of can't. Of course we now have the XH2S, with a sony sensor(maybe?) that is doing a 14 bit readout. The shadow retention on that camera is quite impressive especially for a S35 sensor, which I assume has a lot to do with the 14 bit readout. Performance was gimped by fuji's weird Xtrans filter and bad processing.

 Most things come down to money but I also see a lot of incompetency with these camera companies, which is also probably stemming from a lack of budget in R&D. The camera market is pretty dead. In terms of marketing I don't know, I don't work for these companies. I am just making guesses.

I have used lower end cameras for a long time. Recently in 2022 and this year I have had the chance to shoot on RED and ARRI for several feature film projects. I was of the opinion that it is a waste of money and time to shoot with these cameras for the most part. I don't hold that opinion anymore. At the end of several of my projects last year I was questioning the merit of using a heavier, older cinema camera vs something much lighter and quicker to use. Once I started coloring the projects I changed my mind. The EPIC Dragon and Alexa EV are both pretty old tech as well. I am excited to possibly shoot with the RED monstro or LF soon.

Am I focusing on things that don't matter? Maybe? I am not a director, the story is not my realm. My job is the image which is achieved through the camera and lighting. Everything in my line of work is arbitrary to some degree. It is art. It's choosing between using a frost or white diffusion. Does the audience care? What is too much and what is too little? I don't know. Small things that add up. It's an obsessive job but that is part of the fun, at least to me.

Anyways I am hopeful to see something with 14 bit readout on the market soon that is in the affordable range. Rooting for Panasonic. 

 

[PannySVHS]

41 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

It is art. It's choosing between using a frost or white diffusion. Does the audience care? What is too much and what is too little? I don't know. Small things that add up. It's an obsessive job but that is part of the fun, at least to me.

Lovely! Art with frost gel, awesome analogy. Mojo, got some at my home. Still haven't used it, my Cinealta F3. Cannot wait to give it a worthy occasion. That thang got a thing going on, mojo!:)

5d raw got that . Tech might seemingly appear about equal between some cameras. I bet 5d3 raw looks better with tungsten plus red gels than a P4K, especially if not equipped with an IRcut. So that's a specific situation, where camera tech makes a difference between two seemingly similar camera images. The P4K in an instance fell apart in that scenatio with braw 5to1. The image was poluted way beyond acceptable looking standards, like worst case 8bit 420 from og A7s Slog2:)

Why would a I buy a 5d2 and 5d3, both together with a 50mm 1.8, 32GB CFcard and a camera bag for 450Euro btw! It's because my S1 leaves me unsatisfied in daylight scenarios. I might be a fool, but I am a fool for the art of a cameras emulsion, a cameras image, a cameras mojo.:)

Mojo, anyway, is the swingin groove of that Muddy Waters Song! Magic lantern Raw got that. In a way. Not like Muddy of course. 🙂

[stephen]

@TomTheDP - You have high standards 🙂 If you shoot with Alexa and Red and work with footage having highest image quality it is understandable you would want this in hybrid cameras too. I can see your point now. Still IMHO high image quality can't be attributed to one single parameter as color depth. Red Komodo raw is still 16bit but you didn't like it. Having in mind how big Alexa and Red cameras are with lots of electronics and cooling inside, am not sure this all can be squeezed in small hybrid camera body. Having experience with Canon RAW again am not sure it can reach the high standards of Alexa or Red image quality. Moved away from Canon 5D to BMPCC 4K + monitor and now to Panasonic S5 with or without external Recorder. I like image quality from Panasonic S5 + BRAW more than Canon 5D ML Raw. Same weight but easier to shoot with too. Yes Canon 5D Mark III default colors have some attractive mojo in some scenes, not all. Have deficiencies too. That's me other people may like Canon 5D more.

@Attila Bakos - Will try again. Maybe I am not doing something right. This is another problem with ML Raw - steep learning curve, spending lots of time on forums in order to understand all details and latest changes. Will not return or shoot in crop mode, that's for sure. It's game over for me. Just curious to check and see.

[PPNS]

23 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The shadow retention on that camera is quite impressive especially for a S35 sensor, which I assume has a lot to do with the 14 bit readout.

From what ive read is that the difference between 12 and 14 bit readout on that specific sensor in that specific camera is less than half a stop of dynamic range.

 

my sentiment on this issue can be boiled down by this little thought experiment:

imagine youre DPing something and you have to budget for only 1 of these choices:

- a theoretical camera with a 14 bit readout that lets you record in 12 bit log raw or 444

or

- an aputure 1200d, a little set of grip gear and a camera with a 12 bit readout that lets you record in 12 bit log raw or 444

 

which one would you pick?

[FHDcrew]

3 hours ago, PPNS said:

From what ive read is that the difference between 12 and 14 bit readout on that specific sensor in that specific camera is less than half a stop of dynamic range.

 

my sentiment on this issue can be boiled down by this little thought experiment:

imagine youre DPing something and you have to budget for only 1 of these choices:

- a theoretical camera with a 14 bit readout that lets you record in 12 bit log raw or 444

or

- an aputure 1200d, a little set of grip gear and a camera with a 12 bit readout that lets you record in 12 bit log raw or 444

 

which one would you pick?

Absolutely the 2nd option. 

[rosco]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:18 AM, mercer said:

That said, I agree that story is king. But as you suggested, any aspect that supports the story and the director's vision is a worthy goal.

I’m talking about low budget filmmakers ? You should be chasing story first not image.  Higher budget in front of the lens and the crew behind will always look better then a hobbyist using 14bit raw.  Anyone can buy a cheap black magic or 5d iii but still won’t look as good compare to Hollywood or streaming services.  Why not just rent another Alexa when you have the budget. Obviously high budget has to do with it but look at Hollywood and streaming movies that fail, maybe the obsessiveness should be on story.  Like someone here says no one walks out of a theater saying “it was shot in Alexa 65, beautiful high dynamic range, omg the 14bit raw colors” shows that lasting impression is not the image.  I find some animation more entertaining tbh.

“1080p raw video with 12ish stops of DR is hardly an obsession in IQ.“

  It is an camera obsession if you keep switching cameras, try to find the best image to cheap mirrorless when you can work on your lighting skills, DOP is lighting also not just the image of the camera.  Why waste so much time on so many cameras when you should spend more on the scene like changing mood, diffuse/bounce and shaping light.  That’s more superior to me imo.

“If it doesn't matter to you... cool! It doesn't mean it isn't important to someone else”

Like I said before, use whatever you want, I’m just saying it shouldn’t be the only focus…let alone whining about it because a cheaper mirrorless can’t provide your missing needs.  Again why complain, if it’s important just rent another arri.

[PannySVHS]

So how does the reliability of 5d2 and 5d3 compare for Raw video?

@rosco If Darren Aranovsky can enjoy some nerdom with a digital bolex, despite being a super busy super star director, I think less profiled image lover can enjoy their low budget cam obsessions, right. I have done a good deal of hard physical and artistic work in the field of low budet video and film making. I don´t need to trade camera nerdom for fill light or bounce variations. I can rest from the hard work and enjoy some camera nerdom. 5D3 will do. Some nice Rosco gels would do that too:)

Btw, I find the body of the 5D2 nicer designed, made and to hold than its successor.