Comparing the Canon EOS R7, R10, Fuji X-H2 & Panasonic S5 II

[Andrew Reid]

New blahg post.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/whats-best-out-of-the-new-releases-comparing-the-canon-eos-r7-r10-fuji-x-h2-panasonic-s5-ii/

[oustaeff]

Nice post.

how about waiting for s5IIX do you think it is worth the extra money?

[ArashM]

Thank you for the post, wondering how you feel about the X-H2 Vs X-H2S

[MrSMW]

Same conclusion I came to already being a paid up member of the L Mount Private Members Club and having had both an OM-1 plus an XH2 in the house for testing.

I loved the micro chunkiness of the OM-1 but didn’t like the quality of the video.

The Fuji system I could easily have flipped back to having come from that ecosystem 2012-2020 and right now, I think there are only whiskers between XH2 and S5ii and could make a case for either.

The XH2/s really is like a mini S1H/Z9 and I think I prefer it over the S5ii…

…but not by enough to change system.

[arant.joseph]

Andrew was the one who originally encouraged me to buy the Nikon d750. I've had it since maybe 2016, and it has truly been a remarkable camera. However, I'm ready to update. I have been eyeing Fujifilm's x-hs2 for the internal pro-res options, but I also waiting to see what Nikon does this year with it's z6 series.

[Django]

Nice roundup. I think the FX30 and R8 could have also got mentioned but overall I agree with your assessment. 

I was all set on a FX30 just because I have an FS7 with some really nice e-mount glass but I can't quite bring myself to it knowing that Fuji just has such better specs. Lack of EVF and mechanical shutter on FX30 is I'm afraid a deal breaker. My personal Fuji candidate remains XH2S for the stacked sensor and open-gate. Some pretty good deals both new and used are also now available. 

It really doesn't make sense for me go Fuji as a Canon & Sony lens owner but I feel so passionate about Fuji, I miss the film simulations etc.. they are just creatively inspiring as well as absolute beasts in the specs area. A bit quirky ergonomics and not perfect AF but the rest really makes up for it. So yeah I'm really leaning towards Fuji at the moment as my next camera despite economically meaning a major lens investment.

[thatPhilGuy]

Thank you for the great 2023 summary.  I still believe you have some of most insightful eyes on the internet.  Breadth and context.  Bought an early S1, thanks to you.

You are better in print.  A clarity and conciseness.  Maybe editing cycles.  You know ‘practice’, and all that.  Or maybe just skill with the  printed word.

But the world changed.  Like for an owner of a vinyl store.  Only one move there:  high end, obscure, collectible, or promising sonic nirvana.  Not so easy for blogs.

On YouTube, still finding your voice.  The “dunk &  snark” is fun but not really the basis for a “trusted brand”.  And kinda of “one shot”.  Making fun, once, is the truthie humor a comedian finds.  We laugh.  Twice, (well, in cameras) everyone starts to think “mean”. 

 And a shortage of worthy and recognizable targets.    Hard to imagine dunking on Gordon Laing.  Parody perhaps.  Dunking?  No way to make friends.  Laing and Undone, both do the work.  Just started down the YouTube path earlier.  Eh, and a little more checklist oriented.

The early days of DSLR had lots of subtle details to be revealed.  A maturing market, with slower camera releases, well tricky to navigate.

After many years of grateful reading, why this first post? (excuse:  no addl. insights)  You are a nice  guy and probably nicer in person than your blog might suggest (always thought you had an edge).  My first clue was some trade show interview (not yours) and I was like, “Hmm, would really like to have a beer with this guy.”  Not what I expected.

Your early USP:  more reverence for film like qualities than pixels.   And of course, “I can’t believe the vendor treats their users this way!”  You idealistic hope that capitalists will see the light is quite charming.  In that Don Quixote way ; -)    
I too am tired of Canon’s market segmentation.

I’ve gone on too long without really helping.  Ouch.  Really?  Yup. Oh well, have to, as they say, “give it a go”.

So…  Consider the sub-brand “Romancing the Frame”.  Might be room.  Simply loving a few frames (or setup).  Really loving it!  Passion is a quality everyone can related to.  Not a music video, just loving a few frames.  Different than “Every Frame a painting”.  Mere mortal setups.  In pawn shops, bathrooms, a tired alley, a ticket counter.  With characters.  Real characters.

Yes, every online film class has one or two of these.  The opportunity: a deeper focus on sharing the joy in both finding and creating.  Of course, with music.  Not just discovering, but also building a visual quality that didn’t exist. 
Consider: This Frame — The Make-Over Edition.

Closer to the roots of EOSHD.  Film look from a then cheaper 5d.  Check out Ulysses Aoki.  Only 39.k subs, but  996K view in three months on “This $200 camera shoots infinite film like photos”.  Reminds be a bit of you and your early B-roll.  Your offering: some combo of lighting, filters, profiles, LUTS, diffusion, flags, and used cameras.  Concise quick takes & tricks. Passion + hard work is how any filmmaker gets there.  And you’ll have to let your inner romantic, out for a stroll more often.  (maybe watch some old Graham Kerr, Galloping Gourmet. Yeah, right. )  

Lots of less conflicted sponsorship options in lighting.  Many lights good enough. No lens lock-in, etc.

Any new (online personality) direction is going to take some serious work.  Casey Neistat kinda work. He still does it.   Not just insights spoken to a lens.   One reason for the move back to NYC is probably the B-roll. Checkout the comments on “The Problem with New York City.  He’s an entertainer, not a reviewer, but he does the work.  (Max Joseph taught him to edit) Think you get the idea.

I realize this is just suggesting finding a tighter focus on “infotainment”.  And more work.  Might not be you.

Doubt I helped.  You probably knew all this.  Please consider all these words just a long winded way to say “feel ya”.  Wishing you all the best.  And indeed, wish I could buy you a beer (in person).

Cheers,           (and with gratitude)

[thatPhilGuy]

My apologies to the forum.  Shouldn't have posted my (above) off-topic reaction.  Guess I just really responded in the moment.  I'm deeply appreciative of Andrew and his work here.  Now I see the message 'Form', and no way to delete my own post.

Most thoughtful forum around.  Again my apologies.

[Andrew Reid]

23 hours ago, ArashM said:

Thank you for the post, wondering how you feel about the X-H2 Vs X-H2S

Prefer the X-H2 as the X-H2S is quite a bit more and the 4K/120p comes with a heavy crop. Also AF seems better on the X-H2, although I believe the latest firmware update improved matters on the X-H2S.

[Superka]

I cannot bare poor Roll.Shutter on X-H2, R7.

I'd go for Canon R8, or Panas S5-II. R6-II also super attractive, CVP likes its ergonomics.

[Chrille]

On 3/19/2023 at 1:47 AM, Andrew Reid said:

Prefer the X-H2 as the X-H2S is quite a bit more and the 4K/120p comes with a heavy crop. Also AF seems better on the X-H2, although I believe the latest firmware update improved matters on the X-H2S.

Here in Germany the price difference between X-H2 as the X-H2S is approx 200,-. Strange that the difference seems to be higher in other countries.

[Chrille]

On 3/19/2023 at 3:20 AM, Superka said:

I cannot bare poor Roll.Shutter on X-H2, R7.

I'd go for Canon R8, or Panas S5-II. R6-II also super attractive, CVP likes its ergonomics.

IX-H2s seems to have very little rolling shutter in Flog1 (Something between  5 and 6 ms) while it has 11-12 ms in Flog2. As i am also looking for a camera with little shutter, this seems quite interesting...

[fuzzynormal]

I vote for print.  Ironic that you say "short attention span" when the fact is one can read things a hell of a lot faster than watch the same words delivered in a video.

Myself, I'm probably going with the dark horse in this hunt; so much so it's not even mentioned:  The OM-1.  I got some pretty specific needs coming down the pike this year so that camera just makes sense. 

I'd wager there's not many of us out here in the wild that'll be using that body exclusively for video production.

[Django]

9 hours ago, Chrille said:

IX-H2s seems to have very little rolling shutter in Flog1 (Something between  5 and 6 ms) while it has 11-12 ms in Flog2. As i am also looking for a camera with little shutter, this seems quite interesting...

Yes that's because XH2S uses a stacked sensor capable of 14-bit readout under 30fps. Going above or using Flog1 drops the readout to 12-bit delivering lower RS. 4K120p goes as low as 3.9ms.

If you add to that 6K open-gate and chunky ProRes codec options, you have one of the most solid IQs in mirrorless.

This to me makes XH2S best bang for buck camera for ultimate IQ.

[Thpriest]

I like the written blogs, there are not many like yours. They are often worth reading whereas the videos get drowned out in the Youtube torrent.

There are some great options out there. I’m thinking of selling my S1, which I really like apart from the weight and AF, to get a S5mk2 for those very reasons. I really love my Panasonics, the only thing I have been missing was the AF (old eyes) and that seems to have been solved. I’ll keep my S5, even though I prefer the S1, as it makes more sense having 2 cameras the use the same batteries and cards.

Friends have the Canon R6 and it’s a great camera too. The R6mk2 looks even better other than the price.

The FX30 looks very interesting if you are only doing video although I can’t say I have enjoyed using Sonys.

 

[deezid]

15 hours ago, Django said:

Yes that's because XH2S uses a stacked sensor capable of 14-bit readout under 30fps. Going above or using Flog1 drops the readout to 12-bit delivering lower RS. 4K120p goes as low as 3.9ms.

If you add to that 6K open-gate and chunky ProRes codec options, you have one of the most solid IQs in mirrorless.

This to me makes XH2S best bang for buck camera for ultimate IQ.

It has the worst tonality and color separation of any camera I've tried over the past 4 years. To be fair I never tried the X-T4 and 3, which are considered even worse in that regard. To add the image is also heavily oversharpened in comparison to even Sony cameras.

Also the Long-Gop codecs have heavy 1-sec interval flickering and the All-I codecs are impossible to edit on M2 Max machines even, which means you basically have to shoot ProRes.

No issues with external BRAW though, all the color information is definitely there from the sensor. The internal image processing is just awful but once bypassed you'll get a nice image. With ProRes RAW the image is even better.

Dynamic range with the 12 bit readout for external RAW is pretty much identical to the 14 bit readout, you won't get more than 12 stops either way. Only advantage over other cameras is that the X-H2s still has is its fast readout.

[deezid]

13 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I like the written blogs, there are not many like yours. They are often worth reading whereas the videos get drowned out in the Youtube torrent.

There are some great options out there. I’m thinking of selling my S1, which I really like apart from the weight and AF, to get a S5mk2 for those very reasons. I really love my Panasonics, the only thing I have been missing was the AF (old eyes) and that seems to have been solved. I’ll keep my S5, even though I prefer the S1, as it makes more sense having 2 cameras the use the same batteries and cards.

Friends have the Canon R6 and it’s a great camera too. The R6mk2 looks even better other than the price.

The FX30 looks very interesting if you are only doing video although I can’t say I have enjoyed using Sonys.

 

Keep in mind that the S5II has wildly different color than the S1 and S5, which both looked identical.
Also the S5II has some image-processing related flaws which still need to be fixed. I'll hear from a person who is close to engineers soon hopefully wether this issue will be solved or not.

If not I would highly recommend looking out for the R6II or even Pocket 6K or just staying with the S1 if video quality is important to you. Skip any Sony (unless you can afford the A1 or FX6) or Fuji cameras.

The banding artefacts are quite obvious in darker areas on the S5II, so in case you intend to do some lowkey style shooting you will run into problems. Some examples:
https://www.cined.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/ (latitude tests)
 

Also seen here, red and green banding, similar to GH4 back in the days, both 10 bit 422 and external ProRes.

[Kisaha]

Do not underestimate the legacy of Canon..R7 is just a pleasant camera to use and the best tool at the money (new).

[Django]

8 hours ago, deezid said:

It has the worst tonality and color separation of any camera I've tried over the past 4 years. To be fair I never tried the X-T4 and 3, which are considered even worse in that regard. To add the image is also heavily oversharpened in comparison to even Sony cameras.

That's because Fuji use X-Trans CFA pattern vs Bayer. There are pros & cons to that. The pros are less chroma noise at high ISO and hence a more film-like noise. Absence of moiré and no AA filter which explains the perceived extra sharpness. The cons are chroma smoothing in the color channel. This can be a big issue to some, or not at all to others.

Seems like its especially problematic when shooting foliage from a distance. I don't really do that so haven't ever noticed much glaring issues. Only thing I've noticed when shooting Fuji is issues in the red channel which can be annoying.

But overall I love the Fuji color science, the film simulations, F-Log etc. Sharpness should be turned down to the max in camera, again the absence of an AA filter can be kind of shocking but it does add detail so I guess that's more subjective.

8 hours ago, deezid said:

Also the Long-Gop codecs have heavy 1-sec interval flickering and the All-I codecs are impossible to edit on M2 Max machines even, which means you basically have to shoot ProRes.

First time I'm hearing about that, you're talking about the H265 right? impossible to edit on M2 Max sounds nuts, you really sure of that?

8 hours ago, deezid said:

No issues with external BRAW though, all the color information is definitely there from the sensor. The internal image processing is just awful but once bypassed you'll get a nice image. With ProRes RAW the image is even better.

Dynamic range with the 12 bit readout for external RAW is pretty much identical to the 14 bit readout, you won't get more than 12 stops either way. Only advantage over other cameras is that the X-H2s still has is its fast readout.

RAW bypasses the X-Trans CFA so explains why you get the color info back.

I've been messing around with ProRes HQ footage from XH2S and find the IQ brilliant. Super chunky robust files that grade beautifully. In fact I'd be tempted to say its the nicest IQ I've seen from a mirrorless. YMMV.

S5II was rather disappointing, the tiny h265 files just feel paper thin when pushing the grade. S5IIx with ProRes will surely be much better.

Overall Canon does have the richest colours & nicest skin tones. But it can also feel a little exaggerated. 

I dunno I'm really tempted to switch back over to Fuji. again 6K Open-Gate with fast 14-bit readout and ProRes is just a winning combo imo. 

[Thpriest]

8 hours ago, deezid said:

Keep in mind that the S5II has wildly different color than the S1 and S5, which both looked identical.
Also the S5II has some image-processing related flaws which still need to be fixed. I'll hear from a person who is close to engineers soon hopefully wether this issue will be solved or not.
The banding artefacts are quite obvious in darker areas on the S5II, so in case you intend to do some lowkey style shooting you will run into problems.

To be honest I'm not a pixel peeper but I value many posters' opinions here. For me Panasonics have other advantages like their ergonomics. It'll be interesting to see what you get told about the image-processing.

The S5mk2 is on sale in Spain for 2,590€ with the Sigma 28-70 f2.8. There's also a 300€ cashback for trading in an old camera. I'll have to check if any camera will do (I have an old Lumix point and shoot). That's really good value especially once I discount the VAT. Canon and Sony are just way more expensive.