Comparing the Canon EOS R7, R10, Fuji X-H2 & Panasonic S5 II

[PannySVHS]

@deezid So S1 is still taking a beautiful image? Or have you found annoyances after your first very positive impressions? I thought Pocket6K Braw was not your favorite budget cam image. Always a pleasure to read your findings. I don´t like the S1 under natural daylight. Just looking boring to me no matter how I grade it. Maybe I am not used to so much dynamic range:)

[Kubrickian]

There's something about the motion cadence with the X-H2S that doesn't sit right with me. I'm guessing this example is at 1/48th shutter because I've seen similar results in other videos. You could always use some filtration to kill the over sharpened look, but I'm not sure there's a way to come back from this. 

 

[Brian Williams]

The R10 does shoot 10bit. No log though.

[Superka]

I see no reason to buy Fuji as it has problematic AF (for many lenses), is 1.5x crop, pricey, poor RS (XH2)

CMOS streaking of Panasonic S5 scares me (saw it in CVP review), I doubt S5II will be better

Canon r8 for 1500 is the most atractive. Remember, each FF cameras doing well in 1.5x crop too, so they are 2in1.

[deezid]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:59 PM, Django said:

I've been messing around with ProRes HQ footage from XH2S and find the IQ brilliant. Super chunky robust files that grade beautifully. In fact I'd be tempted to say its the nicest IQ I've seen from a mirrorless. YMMV.

S5II was rather disappointing, the tiny h265 files just feel paper thin when pushing the grade. S5IIx with ProRes will surely be much better.

To each their own. 
To me the heavy chroma filtering when shooting internally is an absolute no go. Skin looks lifeless and so does any kind any kind of foliage. That's only one problem next to the insane amount of oversharpening the cameras forces on your footage. 

The image lacks tonality and color separation and looks thin as nothing I've ever seen before, something that cannot be fixed in post. Fuji also really needs to work on their AF and IBIS.

The S5II on the other hand has no issues with that but has banding in shadows which hopefully can be fixed via a firmware update.

Btw. external ProRes on the S5II looks identical in every single way to the internal H265/H264 codecs, there's not a single difference in IQ even when pushing color a to the extremes.

[Django]

1 hour ago, deezid said:

To each their own. 
To me the heavy chroma filtering when shooting internally is an absolute no go. Skin looks lifeless and so does any kind any kind of foliage. That's only one problem next to the insane amount of oversharpening the cameras forces on your footage. 

The image lacks tonality and color separation and looks thin as nothing I've ever seen before, something that cannot be fixed in post. Fuji also really needs to work on their AF and IBIS.

The S5II on the other hand has no issues with that but has banding in shadows which hopefully can be fixed via a firmware update.

Btw. external ProRes on the S5II looks identical in every single way to the internal H265/H264 codecs, there's not a single difference in IQ even when pushing color a to the extremes.

The chroma smoothing thing is real but overblown imo. Its a pixel peeper thing, in real life scenarios it rarely matters.

Skin tones when shot properly are amazing. The 4K120p is amazing. Better than the class leading A7SIII.

Here is some XH2S 4K120p footage shot in 8-bit 264 standard baked profile: 

Yes the image is sharp but hard to beat such a clean rich detailed 4K120p with no moiré. Any other Bayer sensor camera and that fabric would be moiré artifacting like crazy. And that's in the lowest 8-bit setting..

Its easy to pick apart issues but you also got to know how to play cameras to their advantages.

I prefer softening a sharp detailed image then the reverse. Just pop on a vintage / cine lens and something like a Pro-Mist filter and you'll already get a much softer image.. add some film grading, halation etc on the very chunky robust ProRes codec and you've got yourself a very cinematic image with film like grain:

 

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, Django said:

prefer softening a sharp detailed image then the reverse. Just pop on a vintage / cine lens and something like a Pro-Mist filter and you'll already get a much softer image..

Yes, my go to also, ie, start with with the cleanest and sharp image and then ‘degrade’ it as required.

My preferred method is:

A. S1H which has an optical low pass filter whereas most cameras do not. Any potential for moiré is basically eliminated and the image is a fraction softer than it is from say it’s sister S1 body.

B. Use a lens that produces both a clean and sharp result. My preferred glass in this regard is the Sigma Contemporary range of primes and zooms.

C. Use a quality 1/8th mist all the time for a subtle consistent look that combined with A + B, makes for a great SOOC starting point for grading.

D. The final touch in grading is adding a subtle film grain as a layer.

Most of which is then immediately lost when you bang it up on YouTube 😫😉

[Beritar]

11 hours ago, deezid said:

To each their own. 
To me the heavy chroma filtering when shooting internally is an absolute no go. Skin looks lifeless and so does any kind any kind of foliage. That's only one problem next to the insane amount of oversharpening the cameras forces on your footage. 

The image lacks tonality and color separation and looks thin as nothing I've ever seen before, something that cannot be fixed in post. Fuji also really needs to work on their AF and IBIS.

The S5II on the other hand has no issues with that but has banding in shadows which hopefully can be fixed via a firmware update.

Btw. external ProRes on the S5II looks identical in every single way to the internal H265/H264 codecs, there's not a single difference in IQ even when pushing color a to the extremes.

The S5II also uses more sharpening and details smoothing than before (S5 and S1), less in V-Log and HLG but still noticeable when pixel peeping.
I "pixel peep" a lot because I use 6K to pan or zoom in post and with most profiles the 6K of the S1 really looks like a burst of raw photos and the S5II looks more like a burst of JPEGs with in camera sharpening and NR bumped up. And at this point even my old A7III (while noisier) keeps better details than my S5II in 4K.

[deezid]

On 3/23/2023 at 8:52 AM, Beritar said:

The S5II also uses more sharpening and details smoothing than before (S5 and S1), less in V-Log and HLG but still noticeable when pixel peeping.
I "pixel peep" a lot because I use 6K to pan or zoom in post and with most profiles the 6K of the S1 really looks like a burst of raw photos and the S5II looks more like a burst of JPEGs with in camera sharpening and NR bumped up. And at this point even my old A7III (while noisier) keeps better details than my S5II in 4K.

Chroma and luma detail (in V-Log) look pretty much the same than on my S1H if not even better.
V-Log is the only profile with the banding problem though, even HLG is clean in shadows.

Can't say anything about the sRGB profiles since I would never use them.

[deezid]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:12 PM, Django said:

The chroma smoothing thing is real but overblown imo. Its a pixel peeper thing, in real life scenarios it rarely matters.

Skin tones when shot properly are amazing. The 4K120p is amazing. Better than the class leading A7SIII.

Here is some XH2S 4K120p footage shot in 8-bit 264 standard baked profile: 

Yes the image is sharp but hard to beat such a clean rich detailed 4K120p with no moiré. Any other Bayer sensor camera and that fabric would be moiré artifacting like crazy. And that's in the lowest 8-bit setting..

Its easy to pick apart issues but you also got to know how to play cameras to their advantages.

I prefer softening a sharp detailed image then the reverse. Just pop on a vintage / cine lens and something like a Pro-Mist filter and you'll already get a much softer image.. add some film grading, halation etc on the very chunky robust ProRes codec and you've got yourself a very cinematic image with film like grain:

 

Again to each their own.
I would rather have an image without cranked chroma noise reduction reducing tonality to a pulp especially when shooting log, badly affecting skin, foliage, dark areas etc. nor super heavy sharpening leading to quite heavy amounts of noise that an optical diffusion filter cannot reduce btw. The lower amount of processing, the better the image. Ask RED and ARRI.

Heavy chroma NR doesn't really affect baked Rec709/sRGB profiles that much, Log on the other hand suffers terribly.

The X-H2s may have 4K 120p without a crop and super low rolling shutter but awful IBIS, autofocus and rather mediocre video quality unless you'd shoot external raw which thankfully doesn't decrease dynamic range since the 14 bit ADC video mode only seems to sample noise in shadows anyway.

 

 

[Django]

1 hour ago, deezid said:

Again to each their own.
I would rather have an image without cranked chroma noise reduction reducing tonality to a pulp especially when shooting log, badly affecting skin, foliage, dark areas etc. nor super heavy sharpening leading to quite heavy amounts of noise that an optical diffusion filter cannot reduce btw. The lower amount of processing, the better the image. Ask RED and ARRI.

ARRI (like every camera manufacturer) has extensive IQ pipeline, its the key to their whole look:

ARRI’s digital cameras produce exceptional image quality with the organic look and feel of film, delivering incredible production value at an affordable cost. Images created with any ALEXA or AMIRA camera contain all the ingredients for best overall image quality: large and therefore sensitive photosites, high dynamic range, sharp and natural images, high sensitivity, natural color reproduction, excellent color separation, and the absence of artifacts.

To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software.

 

Fuji has their own pipeline which starts with the X-Trans CFA. Like anything it has its pros & cons. Again no AA filter so very sharp/detailed image with no moiré. And again the whole chroma reduction thing is overblown imo with XH2S in 6K ProRes HQ. I'm get excellent tonality/skin tone grades from the Flog2 files I've been testing:

Nice neutral organic image with a lot of detail allowing you to punch-in without image falling apart. Of course every setting, lighting, grading pipeline and lens choice matters. The scene above is shot on a DZOfilm Vespid 40mm T2.1 cine lens. Very light grade here with just Flog2 to ARRI conversion and slight curve adjustment.

YMMV of course, to each their own but with the right lens, the right codec, the right grade I find the XH2S IQ to be among the best, for the type of subjects, lighting and framing I'm likely to do. Could be a whole different thing with other variables.

[deezid]

44 minutes ago, Django said:

ARRI (like every camera manufacturer) has extensive IQ pipeline, its the key to their whole look:

ARRI’s digital cameras produce exceptional image quality with the organic look and feel of film, delivering incredible production value at an affordable cost. Images created with any ALEXA or AMIRA camera contain all the ingredients for best overall image quality: large and therefore sensitive photosites, high dynamic range, sharp and natural images, high sensitivity, natural color reproduction, excellent color separation, and the absence of artifacts.

To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software.

 

Fuji has their own pipeline which starts with the X-Trans CFA. Like anything it has its pros & cons. Again no AA filter so very sharp/detailed image with no moiré. And again the whole chroma reduction thing is overblown imo with XH2S in 6K ProRes HQ. I'm get excellent tonality/skin tone grades from the Flog2 files I've been testing:

Nice neutral organic image with a lot of detail allowing you to punch-in without image falling apart. Of course every setting, lighting, grading pipeline and lens choice matters. The scene above is shot on a DZOfilm Vespid 40mm T2.1 cine lens. Very light grade here with just Flog2 to ARRI conversion and slight curve adjustment.

YMMV of course, to each their own but with the right lens, the right codec, the right grade I find the XH2S IQ to be among the best, for the type of subjects, lighting and framing I'm likely to do. Could be a whole different thing with other variables.

Is her hair grey or dark brown?


Anyway, compared the X-H2s against the S1H and the S1H ran circles around it. The X-H2S simply cannot differentiate between fine hue changes especially in darker areas because of its over cranked spatial chroma filtering.
With BRAW the X-H2s was as good as the S1H. It's simply just a processing related issue.


Speaking of processing issues, the S5II banding issue is not PDAF- nor sensor-related like some were suggesting, the S1H internal V-Log is almost as good as RAW on the S5II, while V-Log on the S5II is quite awful.


TLDR: If you want a great image without compromises for around $2000, get the S1H/S1/S5 or Pocket 6K and avoid the rest.


For comparison:
S5II RAW (DNG in Resolve)

 

S5II int./ext ProRes V-Log

 

S1H int. V-Log

[Django]

44 minutes ago, deezid said:

Is her hair grey or dark brown?

both.

44 minutes ago, deezid said:

Anyway, compared the X-H2s against the S1H and the S1H ran circles around it. The X-H2S simply cannot differentiate between fine hue changes especially in darker areas because of its over cranked spatial chroma filtering.
With BRAW the X-H2s was as good as the S1H. It's simply just a processing related issue.

If you say so. Then again if you're so adversed to image processing then yeah just shoot in BRAW that's what its there for. In most other scenarios nobody will notice/care.

47 minutes ago, deezid said:

TLDR: If you want a great image without compromises for around $2000, get the S1H/S1/S5 or Pocket 6K and avoid the rest.

Sounds very biased. S1H retailed for 4000€. Nothing special about S1/S5 IQ. They use very low bitrate h264 codecs. Have slow readout / high rolling shutter. Use image processing (NR, sharpening) like all non-RAW cameras.

Pocket 6K has issues too, very noisy shadows as soon as you step outside base ISO. moirés like crazy. 

I'm also not sure what your screen shots are supposed to reveal with those blurry abstract shapes but I'll take your word that S5ii image processing is heavier than previous generation, that seems to echo what others have been saying.

Personally I find Vlog kind of a PITA to grade, the conversion LUTs suck. YMMV. 

[D Verco]

Complaining about the Fuji image being too sharp is the dumbest thing I've heard honestly. It hasn't got over sharpening artefacts like DJI's image. Like Django has said, it's more a result of the design of the camera (no olpf, etc). Having more dynamic range than anyone else also helps make an image look sharper because of the latitude you get in post. 

It's also the direction imagery is going. Lenses are getting sharper, cameras are getting higher res, autofocus is getting more accurate. In a few years other cameras available today are going to be considered too soft. 

But even if you still think it's sharp - it's got to be the easiest thing to change if you wanted. Use soft lenses, add softening filters, remove some clarity, mid-contrast, and sharpness in post. 

[superporpoise]

For me the biggest problem with the X-H2S is the manual focus experience on newer Fuji lenses (the only ones I have experience with). Manual focus on the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4 is unusable — huge jumps in between focus areas when set to linear focus. And since the autofocus isn't great (for anything other than a 1-person interview, where it does fine), you need good manual focus. And if I'm going to manual focus, I'd much rather shoot on my 6K Pro.

Also the image is way too sharp, even at -4. It's unflattering when you're shooting people, even with a 1/8 BPM. I'm a big Fuji fan and I'm not getting rid of my X-H2S because I like it for photos, but to make it usable for video I wish they'd fix the operation of their lenses, add touch tracking AF, and figure out sharpening.

That said, the dynamic range and rolling shutter is good. And I love all of the codec options + open gate. It's so close to being good, but these issues make me reach for my FX6/3 or Pocket 6K.

[Django]

16 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

For me the biggest problem with the X-H2S is the manual focus experience on newer Fuji lenses (the only ones I have experience with). Manual focus on the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4 is unusable — huge jumps in between focus areas when set to linear focus.

That's actually quite disapointing to hear. I remember having such issues on old Fuji prime lenses like the 23mm f1.4 (manual focus would step like crazy) but thought surely the new series was fixed. Aren't there MF settings too now? No dice whatsoever for video? 

21 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

Also the image is way too sharp, even at -4. It's unflattering when you're shooting people, even with a 1/8 BPM. I'm a big Fuji fan and I'm not getting rid of my X-H2S because I like it for photos, but to make it usable for video I wish they'd fix the operation of their lenses, add touch tracking AF, and figure out sharpening.

Like stated above the Fuji lenses are mega sharp, and with absence of OLPF plus 6K resolution well yeah that's a sharp image. There are ways around it, but yeah it might involve more than just a BPM. 

The MF lens issues have been there for years so dunno if there is much they can do and the sharpening also. Sometimes I wonder if their video department is just an after thought or something, a bit like Nikon where they have these great video specs but drop the ball completely in functionality.

26 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

That said, the dynamic range and rolling shutter is good. And I love all of the codec options + open gate. It's so close to being good, but these issues make me reach for my FX6/3 or Pocket 6K.

Yeah those are valid concerns and why I don't think going Fuji for me would necessarily work in a pro setting / workflow. I still really want an XH2S but more for indie / artistic projects / lifestyle / social media.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Django said:

That's actually quite disapointing to hear. I remember having such issues on old Fuji prime lenses like the 23mm f1.4 (manual focus would step like crazy) but thought surely the new series was fixed. Aren't there MF settings too now? No dice whatsoever for video?

For me, the weakness with the Fuji system when I used it (9 years), was the lenses.

There was and still is very little that actually ticked the right boxes for me and the best stills lenses tended to be the worst video lenses and as a hybrid shooter…

I was continually tinkering with lens options but never managed to perfect it (for my needs) but then until now, had the same problem with L Mount…

This is why, as much as I like Fuji in principle (the XH2/s for me would be The Perfect body if only it had a tilt screen) and I think the video side of things is more than good enough for my needs (of course there are MUCH better options to shoot a movie or commercial projects on), as a system, it comes behind L Mount and Sony for me.

If I took cost and all subjective matters out of the equation, I think I would have to put it behind Canon also. R6 II/R7…

[Beritar]

11 hours ago, deezid said:

Chroma and luma detail (in V-Log) look pretty much the same than on my S1H if not even better.
V-Log is the only profile with the banding problem though, even HLG is clean in shadows.

Can't say anything about the sRGB profiles since I would never use them.

Yes the issue is with the standard profiles, the difference is obvious :
 

 

However in V-Log they look very similar when sharpness and NR are set at 0 :
 

 

[deezid]

8 hours ago, Django said:

both.

If you say so. Then again if you're so adversed to image processing then yeah just shoot in BRAW that's what its there for. In most other scenarios nobody will notice/care.

I bet with BRAW and even better ProRes RAW the color would be visible actually. The chroma filtering kills of anything in dark areas that isn't super saturated. E.g. dark blue or brown clothes turn grey, hair turns grey, skin turns grey etc. '

A processing issue that would be easy for Fuji to fix, but yet they don't care because their customers don't mind inferior products. Nobody ever puts pressure on that company.
 

Quote

Sounds very biased. S1H retailed for 4000€. Nothing special about S1/S5 IQ. They use very low bitrate h264 codecs. Have slow readout / high rolling shutter. Use image processing (NR, sharpening) like all non-RAW cameras.

*Retailed. Now you can find it around 2000€/$ in every corner of the internet.
The low bitrate Long-Gop codecs of the S1/S5 were quite superior over anything Long-Gop on the X-H2s with no obvious issues.

Also the old S series barely has sharpening if any at all shooting V-Log by default:

S1:

 

 

X-H2s at -4 sharpening:

 

The X-H2s uses a very similar sharpening algorithm as seen on most phones, which is not what I want my footage to look like.

The S1 on the other hand has a many times better image (internally or ext. ProRes). Externally in BRAW/ProRes RAW both are quite similar again but Fuji keeps the RS and no crop at high frame rate advantage while Panasonic has much better IBIS and slightly better low light. 

If Fuji wasn't as awful with their image processing and codecs (not ProRes), I would recommend the X-H2s as well. But at the current state it's a hell no!

[deezid]

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

Yes the issue is with the standard profiles, the difference is obvious :
 

 

However in V-Log they look very similar when sharpness and NR are set at 0 :
 

 

Will do some tests with standard soon. Right now I'm more concerned about the V-Log issues and really hope it will be investigated by Panasonic soon.

My top priority is fixing the banding, after that the red clipping and even later the sharpening and filtering.