No-Budget Movies Are Taking Over: Welcome to a New Era of Filmmaking

[TomTheDP]

4 hours ago, Chrille said:

Can you share some of the movies you have worked on in this preice region? Very interesting!

I've worked on 5 films in the last couple years that were in this budget range, non of them are out yet though. I DM'ed you some stills from the last one that I DP'ed. These are all Tubi films. Check out McGraw Ave Season 2 on Tubi, that was done by one of the production companies I've worked with, and one of my good friends DP'ed it.

[herein2020]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:00 AM, TomTheDP said:

I work on mostly low budget feature films in the 30k realm. They can actually be incredibly profitable if you know what you are doing.

Are these full length feature films? I can't imagine how anyone makes money off of a feature film in that price range. Is the pay based on the final profits after the film is sold? I have worked on some photo shoots that had a bigger budget than that and that was just photography. Even with just my solo day rate I couldn't film a feature film for that price range let alone all of the additional expenses that goes into making something like that.

I know a videographer that worked on something in that price range but he was still waiting yrs later to get paid because he got almost nothing up front and instead was getting paid based on a percentage of the sales. 

Just trying to wrap my head around how shooting/editing/color grading/delivering that much footage could be financially profitable especially considering all of the expenses and time that I imagine goes into making a feature film.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

Just trying to wrap my head around how shooting/editing/color grading/delivering that much footage could be financially profitable especially considering all of the expenses and time that I imagine goes into making a feature film.

Follow Noam Kroll: https://noamkroll.com/ 

He talks a lot about making films in that general budget range. 

I'd say the key tips are:

Everything on the cheap. A short shooting schedule. Doing a lot of it yourself (even perhaps all of the post!). Sometimes he'll even OMB then entire shoot. Or just have merely an extra crewperson or three, no more. 

Personally if I was given US$30K and told to produce a feature film then:

1) I'd find someone to direct it for free

2) leads would have nothing up front (maaaybe if we could get "a name" for half a day, we'd pay for that. But realistically, that isn't possible on this budget. But depends on what your connections are)

3) find a keen aspiring DoP wiling to shoot it "for the reel" (who will use their own camera gear, or mine). Have a second keen aspiring "DoP" -ish person who can work under the actual DoP as the B Cam Op. Won't be too reliant upon the B Cam, but extra coverage might save us in the edit, as we won't be slowing down to get that during the normal shoot itself. (yeah, shooting multicam will screw over the Sound Dept, but that's going to be me... I'm ok with that compromise. Plus I will have the absolute power on the film set that if I need to say "no, we can't shoot this scene for sound with multicam" I will be listened to and obeyed. Thus that reduces a lot the risks and downsides of shooting multicam)

4) have a couple of keen film students as PAs / Unit / LX Assists / Grips / Boom Op / etc to give extra helping hands, I wouldn't count upon them showing up or being moderately competent, but if they are then that is a nice bonus. 

5) make a tough decision about if we can afford paying a token amount to a 1st AC and/or a Gaffer and/or Boom Op

6) work myself "for free" as the Sound Mixer (I know this not an option most people have, and normally you'd have to prioritize this above paying a 1st AC or Gaffer), as I'd be doing this just to get a successful production and a substantial producer credit on my IMDB (and maybe something for me on the backend too, if this project succeeds)

7) shoot it under two weeks, preferably in under a week

8 ) lean hard on the director and/or DoP to be doing their own editing / color grading / VFX for free themselves (or taping into their network to find someone).  For example, ideally this film has no  VFX, and the director might do the edit, and the DoP will do the color grade. 

[TomTheDP]

12 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Are these full length feature films? I can't imagine how anyone makes money off of a feature film in that price range. Is the pay based on the final profits after the film is sold? I have worked on some photo shoots that had a bigger budget than that and that was just photography. Even with just my solo day rate I couldn't film a feature film for that price range let alone all of the additional expenses that goes into making something like that.

I know a videographer that worked on something in that price range but he was still waiting yrs later to get paid because he got almost nothing up front and instead was getting paid based on a percentage of the sales. 

Just trying to wrap my head around how shooting/editing/color grading/delivering that much footage could be financially profitable especially considering all of the expenses and time that I imagine goes into making a feature film.

Yeah I know what you mean. My fiance is a Production Designer and has done projects where the Art Budget is 30k and that doesn't include her personal rate.

When I DP the pay is upfront. DP is usually the highest paid person on the project. The director is usually taking money on the back end with whoever is producing. DP'ing at this level isn't great pay, though it is paying my bills at the moment. These are like 5-7 day shoots.

I am in talks with a producer to DP/Direct/Write a film in the 30k budget range (already written) and splitting the profit 50/50 on the back end. That is where the money is made. Obviously making money on the back end is a risk, but I have seen the money from previous projects and the risk for me is only my time. Making 2-3 times what you have spent is a big win in my book.

[herein2020]

@IronFilm @TomTheDP and I thought music videos were bad budget wise; they have nothing on this. I certainly do my fair share of low budget work especially when it is something new or challenging where I just want to see what I can come up with from a creative standpoint; nothing like a passion project to remind yourself why you got into this industry.

[IronFilm]

Yeah music videos have bad budgets, but at least they're only half a day long to perhaps maaaybe as long as a four day shoot. 

But a feature film will be 10x as long!

[TomTheDP]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:21 PM, herein2020 said:

@IronFilm @TomTheDP and I thought music videos were bad budget wise; they have nothing on this. I certainly do my fair share of low budget work especially when it is something new or challenging where I just want to see what I can come up with from a creative standpoint; nothing like a passion project to remind yourself why you got into this industry.

Yeah definitely on the more standard industry side music videos are usually tough budget wise.

I know a guy who does music videos for like $500 a pop, that includes shooting and edit. Super basic stuff but he makes a living off that.

All this cheap gear both in terms of camera, editing software, computers is basically creating a world where anyone can make a film for relatively cheap. With all the streaming platforms now you have access to sell your stuff in a way that wasn't possible before.

I don't know if it is good or bad, probably a bit of both. It is for sure interesting.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

I know a guy who does music videos for like $500 a pop, that includes shooting and edit. Super basic stuff but he makes a living off that.

That is brutal. 

Just to get a basic yearly income he'll have to do two each and every week!

And that includes: marketing to find new clients, onboarding them, doing the preproduction, doing the shoot itself, doing all the postproduction himself (otherwise that eats into profits) and delivery! 

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

That is brutal. 

Just to get a basic yearly income he'll have to do two each and every week!

And that includes: marketing to find new clients, onboarding them, doing the preproduction, doing the shoot itself, doing all the postproduction himself (otherwise that eats into profits) and delivery! 

That's nothing, this year I shot 3 music videos for a total of $500....yes you read that right, not $500/ea but $500 total and still managed to make it profitable. I used a single venue, a model who was willing to work for free, 3hrs to film all 3, and about 3hrs on the edits. Yes they look like $500 music videos but that's because they were. Even the audio tracks for each video was recorded live in a single take for each one. Two hours filming the performances and audio live, 1hr filming b-roll and it was a wrap.

I agree with you on the volume thing though, I couldn't do that every month let alone every week. They were a nice break from my normal work, but no way would I want that to be my niche.

[IronFilm]

45 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I agree with you on the volume thing though, I couldn't do that every month let alone every week. They were a nice break from my normal work, but no way would I want that to be my niche.

Yeah, I'd happily do one music video for US$500. Just for a refreshing change of pace from the usual. 

Because these days I basically almost never ever work on music videos (just one in the past year, and only a couple in the past couple of years before that). Especially as I'm so focused on the Sound Dept now. 

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

That's nothing, this year I shot 3 music videos for a total of $500....yes you read that right, not $500/ea but $500 total and still managed to make it profitable. I used a single venue, a model who was willing to work for free, 3hrs to film all 3, and about 3hrs on the edits. Yes they look like $500 music videos but that's because they were. Even the audio tracks for each video was recorded live in a single take for each one. Two hours filming the performances and audio live, 1hr filming b-roll and it was a wrap.

I agree with you on the volume thing though, I couldn't do that every month let alone every week. They were a nice break from my normal work, but no way would I want that to be my niche.

 

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

That is brutal. 

Just to get a basic yearly income he'll have to do two each and every week!

And that includes: marketing to find new clients, onboarding them, doing the preproduction, doing the shoot itself, doing all the postproduction himself (otherwise that eats into profits) and delivery! 

He basically shows up, shoots for like 1-2 hours, edits them in a day. Marketing kind of does itself after a while. But yeah it is definitely a hustle.

[MrSMW]

I just have one word:

Weddings 💰

Sure, they don’t have the caché of shooting music videos never mind even short films, but a lot more creative freedom compared with working for an actual client!

OK, the couple are your client but if you are doing it right, they will have next to zero creative input.

If I could restart my career, sure, I’d rather be working towards being the cinematographer on Dune, but like 95% of actors who work in coffee shops to make ends meet, I decided to be the indépendant coffee shop owner over the casual working there.

I digress, but the one thing this industry has taught me is to steer well clear of demanding people with ‘ideas’ 🤪

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I just have one word:

Weddings 💰

Sure, they don’t have the caché of shooting music videos never mind even short films, but a lot more creative freedom compared with working for an actual client!

OK, the couple are your client but if you are doing it right, they will have next to zero creative input.

If I could restart my career, sure, I’d rather be working towards being the cinematographer on Dune, but like 95% of actors who work in coffee shops to make ends meet, I decided to be the indépendant coffee shop owner over the casual working there.

I digress, but the one thing this industry has taught me is to steer well clear of demanding people with ‘ideas’ 🤪

Actually music videos are my favorite type of project to work on, if there was any money at all in it in my area I would shoot a lot more but where I live the artists have no money and music artists aren't really a big thing here. 

The key to music videos is to be very selective with who you work with. You quickly learn to decline projects where the artists wants cars, women, and mansions for their $500 budget. I also won't shoot any that feature guns, drugs, violence, etc. because their tiny budget wouldn't offset the number of high-end clientele that type of content could drive away from my business. The best clients in my area are in the $1500-$5000 range and they let you do your job which is to create the visuals for their lyrics. 

 

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I just have one word:

Weddings 💰

Sure, they don’t have the caché of shooting music videos never mind even short films, but a lot more creative freedom compared with working for an actual client!

 

I think weddings are like everything else, the conditions have to be right for them to be worth it. Just like music videos and the big events that I shoot, where you are located can completely change the types of projects that are profitable or enjoyable. In a small town with no big profitable events, my business model would not work.

To me weddings are my least favorite of all projects. In my area they don't pay very well since this is not a wedding destination and there's tons of wedding videographers/photographers here, and the sheer disorganization of it all combined with trying to get a few min of the bride and groom's time on their wedding day and combined with trying to get everyone mic'd up for good audio makes it just not something I want to shoot.

Also, the only geographic feature here is the beaches so everyone wants a beach wedding which is blazing hot in the summer so you have to worry about your gear overheating and the sand gets into every single crevice of your equipment.  In an area with less competition, that is a wedding destination, where weddings paid better I would be more inclined to pursue that type of work. 

[mercer]

Regarding no budget features...

I've heard of projects made for less than $10,000 that will get a streaming deal but I cannot imagine there is a lot of money to be made? What does the average filmmaker/producer make for getting a steaming deal with Tubi, etc...?

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Regarding no budget features...

I've heard of projects made for less than $10,000 that will get a streaming deal but I cannot imagine there is a lot of money to be made? What does the average filmmaker/producer make for getting a steaming deal with Tubi, etc...?

I am not sure the average but the money can be very good if you have the right content. It is a matter of knowing what to make and how to make it. Most people either know one or the other.

[mercer]

23 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I am not sure the average but the money can be very good if you have the right content. It is a matter of knowing what to make and how to make it. Most people either know one or the other.

I know a guy who has a film on Tubi and it cost him a few grand to make. I believe he has/had a distributor, so I don't know what kind of deal he has/had.

[Evgeniy85]

But who watches these films? 
I mean it's pretty easy to distribute your films these days. A bunch of stuff that I worked on is on Amazon prime and Apple but nobody watches those and I don't think that they made any money. 

[TomTheDP]

18 minutes ago, mercer said:

I know a guy who has a film on Tubi and it cost him a few grand to make. I believe he has/had a distributor, so I don't know what kind of deal he has/had.

Yeah a distributor usually takes like 30% from what I remember, at least the ones in Detroit. A lot of streaming services are buying "original content" where you just sell directly to say Tubi without a distributor fee. I guess it is like anything there is a lot of variables.

@Evgeniy85
It depends on the film you make. The ones I work on get a lot of views and consequentially make a lot of money. For example with Tubi and Detroit it is all "black films". You have to know that market. I am sure there are other indie streaming markets you can hit but that is the one I work in.

[Evgeniy85]

@TomTheDP interesting.
That's a very specific niche though, general audience is still watching mainstream films for the most part. The last microbudget film that was popular and made a lot of money was One Cut of The Dead as far as I remember. 

[TomTheDP]

28 minutes ago, Evgeniy85 said:

@TomTheDP interesting.
That's a very specific niche though, general audience is still watching mainstream films for the most part. The last microbudget film that was popular and made a lot of money was One Cut of The Dead as far as I remember. 

Yes but that is the only way to make money when you don't have an obscene amount of money to market to general audiences.