Sony New Camera Launch - 29th March 2023

[kye]

3 hours ago, markr041 said:

Really, this about film-making? This thread is about a specific camera, and what it can do and what it cannot. And what it cannot do is shoot long takes in 4K at 60 fps. It overheats.

You think it is a good idea to use a compact camera with heat issues and a noisy external fan for taking long clips when there is an obviously better alternative? I guess you are right, as a  film maker. And the camera has one card slot. You want to bet your advance on using such a camera for a client? 

"Film making". Seriously, making a "film" with a ZV E1 for static long takes? 

It's a great travel camera for video. Tested. But, film-making! Really?

Btw, I liked the discussion on sensors and processors and color science and dynamic range. Useful.

If you disagree with an argument, sarcasm is not useful.

One thing that is essentially invisible on these forums is relative cost of these devices.  When I joined a bunch of Facebook groups related to MFT and GH5 etc a few years ago I realised a few very interesting things:

• There were pros shooting music videos on MFT cameras like the GX85 and G9 - fully booked working professionals
• There were people who didn't know anything technical at all doing real paid work...  posts like "I've just bought a GH4 and a vintage 50mm lens, my first real camera setup.  I've got 8 paid gigs scheduled starting in 5 days time - what does the mode knob do? and is 50mm a good lens to use?"
• There were people who were incredibly excited to get (what we would dismiss as being) old has-been cameras..  I saw many posts of people saying that they'd saved up enough money to buy a GH4 or GH5 as it was "their dream camera".  These were often people in poorer countries / areas.

Adding to this other factors such as:

• There are countries that still broadcast in SD, or 720p
• People do work for community media channels (which have no money)
• People do work for not-for-profits (which have less than no money)

What this means is that working with cameras that are sub-optimal or lower budget is very much a consideration and reality for many or even most people out there.  When you add to the situation that to shoot events with a multi-cam setup you have to spread your budget across multiple cameras, all this becomes amplified and there are people literally sleeping on the floor of their friends and family to be able to buy equipment.

So, to you and me this $2K camera might seem like a "low-end" option, and for more "serious" work people should spend double or more for a better model, this is to many a completely ridiculous price for a camera (maybe more than a years salary) and so if this is a way to get into FF Sony then why not add fans and all manner of jerry-rigging to it.

All of the above applies even more-so to people trying to film their first (or tenth) feature film, or filming documentaries (where long takes are required for interviews etc).

The more I get exposed to the wider world, the more I realise that my home videos are often shot, edited, graded and delivered better than a lot of stuff that appears on commercial TV.  

So, is this camera the right choice for such works?  Probably not.  Will some people try to use it for these things by adding fans and all manner of other things? Absolutely.  
But let's ignore that and just assume that no-one would ever try to do anything that this camera isn't capable of doing.  Should we just discuss cameras in a non-critical way?  Should we just thank the manufacturers for giving us whatever half-crippled products they decide will keep their bottom line as rosy as possible?

No.  We should push against the manufacturers at all times to do better.  We should explore the options provided by the manufacturers from whatever angles we think of, so that not only will the less wealthy lurkers who read the forums but don't post have ideas about what is and isn't possible with each camera but also so that the manufacturers can see what improvements make sense in the context of each model.
Panasonic was greatly admired over the time when it released the GH1-GH5 line because....  *drum roll please*  .... they improved each model from the last by basically doing what people requested.  The reviews had consistent themes of "in our review of the last model we made a wish list and this new model ticks all those boxes".

[Django]

Well let's face it, everybody likes to save money no matter your income. So when the Sony shills on YouTube are out there spinning the ZV-E1 is an A7S3/FX3 for almost half the price, eyebrows get raised. What's the catch? Well its quite simple, Sony stripped the camera to its bare bones and it overheats during long takes as result. And the shit show commences.

Overheating is a controversial subject. Most people I think feel a camera past a certain price point shouldn't have such limitations. Sony did put a lot of effort into making sure this camera is identified as a VLog camera. It's not in the A7 series its ZV. And I guess that for its intended use, the camera performs to satisfaction. So why the fuss?

Because price aside, there are a few cool things about the ZV-E1. It has features neither the A7S3 or the FX3 have thanks to the AI processor. The AF is really impressive, it has breathing comp etc. Also the touchscreen supports gestures etc. The camera just feels snappy and the AF doesn't skip a beat no matter what you throw at it.

So in a few ways, the ZV-E1 kinda feels like an updated A7S3/FX3. And that's rather alluring, especially in the US at its price point. But that's when reality hits and you must realise its a vlog/travel C-cam intended for short takes. If that's your method of shooting, well you're in luck. If not, its probably going to be a hard pass. Its as simple as that. 

[FHDcrew]

1 hour ago, Django said:

So when the Sony shills on YouTube are out there spinning the ZV-E1 is an A7S3/FX3 for almost half the price

Dude I'm literally sick of Sony shills.  Ruins Youtube for me.

 

[markr041]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Well let's face it, everybody likes to save money no matter your income. So when the Sony shills on YouTube are out there spinning the ZV-E1 is an A7S3/FX3 for almost half the price, eyebrows get raised. What's the catch? Well its quite simple, Sony stripped the camera to its bare bones and it overheats during long takes as result. And the shit show commences.

Overheating is a controversial subject. Most people I think feel a camera past a certain price point shouldn't have such limitations. Sony did put a lot of effort into making sure this camera is identified as a VLog camera. It's not in the A7 series its ZV. And I guess that for its intended use, the camera performs to satisfaction. So why the fuss?

Because price aside, there are a few cool things about the ZV-E1. It has features neither the A7S3 or the FX3 have thanks to the AI processor. The AF is really impressive, it has breathing comp etc. Also the touchscreen supports gestures etc. The camera just feels snappy and the AF doesn't skip a beat no matter what you throw at it.

So in a few ways, the ZV-E1 kinda feels like an updated A7S3/FX3. And that's rather alluring, especially in the US at its price point. But that's when reality hits and you must realise its a vlog/travel C-cam intended for short takes. If that's your method of shooting, well you're in luck. If not, its probably going to be a hard pass. Its as simple as that. 

Terrific post. I just want to add something that I think is overlooked - the ZV E1 is not a cheap fx3, it is a miniatured fx3. and that miniaturization, which makes the camera ideal for travel, is what has led to the compromises that some people hate - the single card slot, the lack of a viewfinder, the micro HDMI slot, and overheating. All these are directly due to keeping the camera small. It is physics, not some cripple hammer marketing ploy. Thus, pleading with Sony to "improve" on these shortcomings is fruitless, with current technology. When the chips are more efficient, overheating will go away even for a small form-factor camera. But unless there is a new storage standard - nano sd cards? - adding another slot without adding bulk seems impossible.

And, as was said, there are bonus features over and above the capability of all the cinema line cameras due to the AI chip - the sticky tracking focus that allows people who turn their backs on the videographer to stay in focus - mere eye detection cannot stay in focus if people turn their heads. CIZ is also better, and there is dynamic active stabilization so that for the first time with any full-frame camera you can walk and shoot without a gimbal, with little resolution loss despite the crop (CIZ).

[markr041]

The ZV E1, paired with a good lens, like the Zeiss 24-70 f4, does really provide a nice image. And that sticky tracking focus assisted by AI really works and is needed here (the dancer moving and turning, for example).

Here is Hare Krisha at Washington Square Park.

Oh, and the audio quality of the camera is above the usual.

[ntblowz]

35 minutes ago, markr041 said:

The ZV E1, paired with a good lens, like the Zeiss 24-70 f4, does really provide a nice image. And that sticky tracking focus assisted by AI really works and is needed here (the dancer moving and turning, for example).

Here is Hare Krisha at Washington Square Park.

Oh, and the audio quality of the camera is above the usual.

Does Dynamic Active Stabilization works on the 24-70 F4?  I heard it doesn't work on 3rd party lens, but I m not sure about older Sony lens.  Your video there is really stable, I think more stable than 28-60mm?

[markr041]

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

Does Dynamic Active Stabilization works on the 24-70 F4?  I heard it doesn't work on 3rd party lens, but I m not sure about older Sony lens.  Your video there is really stable, I think more stable than 28-60mm?

The 28-60 has no OSS. The 24-70 has OSS, so in principle, if they coordinate, there should be more stability with IBIS. I use Active Stabilization for static shots, reserving dynamic stabilization for moving with the camera. I have not tried that (yet) with the Zeiss/Sony lens.

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, Django said:

But that's when reality hits and you must realise its a vlog/travel C-cam intended for short takes.

That’s exactly how I saw it and actually considered it a few weeks back in looking at valid L Mount alternatives…

A7RV stills and B cam video

FX3 A cam video

ZVE1 C cam mainly gimbal 

At the same time, there is nothing wrong with folks using any piece of kit in ways it was not originally intended.

I often have in the past such as shooting weddings (stills) with just an original X100 or video with the Sony RX100v.

Yep, the latter overheated numerous times but there are workarounds and had I been serious about it, could have bounced between multiple units.

I had an idea once to use just GoPros and use that adapter whose name I cannot remember, to mount lenses and have this dinky fun little set up.

People can do what they like and why not?

OK building a pro set up around something like the ZVE1 would not be the greatest option, but otherwise if you fancy it, go for it.

Same as buying a Leica. We all know that really, Panasonic is better and 1/2 the price 😉

[kye]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

At the same time, there is nothing wrong with folks using any piece of kit in ways it was not originally intended.

Absolutely!

If we all only did what the manufacturer suggested we do then you might as well erase half of the footage online, across all streaming services and content hosting sites.

Some notable mentions (that make using a ZV-E1 for film-making look completely normal) include:

• Using GoPros in major feature films, like the $66M Need For Speed - https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/gopro-hero3/
• Filming feature films entirely using a smartphone, like Tangerine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine_(film)
• Using the Magic Lantern firmware on Canon cameras
• etc etc

In fact, using DSLRs to record professional video at all was not intended by the manufacturers.  Had we followed their guidance we wouldn't have had the entire DSLR revolution, this blog, and an entirely new chapter of indy film-making which includes indy features but also all the forms of video social media around.  Ironically, had we only followed the manufacturers guidance, the ZV-E1 probably wouldn't exist.  

So when @markr041 talks about how the ZV-E1 should only be used for travel and vlogging, it goes against the entire idea that created the camera, both travel film-making and vlogging genres, and also the existence and purpose of this whole site.

[markr041]

3 hours ago, kye said:

Absolutely!

If we all only did what the manufacturer suggested we h you might as well erase half of the footage online, across all streaming services and content hosting sites.

Some notable mentions (that make using a ZV-E1 for film-making look completely normal) include:

• Using GoPros in major feature films, like the $66M Need For Speed - https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/gopro-hero3/
• Filming feature films entirely using a smartphone, like Tangerine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine_(film)
• Using the Magic Lantern firmware on Canon cameras
• etc etc

In fact, using DSLRs to record professional video at all was not intended by the manufacturers.  Had we followed their guidance we wouldn't have had the entire DSLR revolution, this blog, and an entirely new chapter of indy film-making which includes indy features but also all the forms of video social media around.  Ironically, had we only followed the manufacturers guidance, the ZV-E1 probably wouldn't exist.  

So when @markr041 talks about how the ZV-E1 should only be used for travel and vlogging, it goes against the entire idea that created the camera, both travel film-making and vlogging genres, and also the existence and purpose of this whole site.

Yes, anyone using a camera for a purpose not intended by camera design should be banned. It is a sin to to misuse a camera beyond its capacity. Those who do this are obviously incompetent or stupid, and don't understand the basics of videography. Or cannot afford real cinema cameras because they are mediocre professionals.

This site is only about following manufacturer's instructions and benchmarking camera specs. All discussions of film making should be deleted. [Attacks on posted videos or posters are ok, as long as they make the poster feel better about himself.]

Any other straw man you guys want to attack?

Seriously, It is actually fun to push a camera to its limits, and to find creative ways to make use of any camera beyond the ordinary.

Maybe we should have a thread devoted to creative uses of cheap, consumer cams for professional video. It would be very interesting. As long as people stop being pretentious and sanctimonious. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

Any other straw man you guys want to attack?

No straw man attacks here - I simply replied to your comment:

Quote

Seriously, guys. Overheating? Do you take long, boring takes from one position? That's what you shoot?

by explaining why people might take long boring takes from one position.

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

Seriously, It is actually fun to push a camera to its limits, and to find creative ways to make use of any camera beyond the ordinary.

True, and I also enjoy this as well, but it's not always about pushing just for the fun of it, size can also be a significant factor.

There are a significant number of reasons that someone might want to shoot using a camera/rig that's as physically small as possible.  Unfortunately, almost the entire industry is based around the idea that if you want better video quality then you will be happy having a larger camera, which is an assumption that works in many use-cases, but not all.

The critics of this perspective cite the reality of needing to have large enough batteries and to dissipate heat etc, but the factor that this doesn't take into consideration is resolution.  8K60 is 10 times the data-rate of 4K 24p and 40 times the data-rate of 2K 24p.  Things like screens consume about the same amount of power regardless of the resolution of the camera, so you can't just reduce the battery by a factor of 10x, but even if it meant you could quarter the size, then you're also quartering the heat dissipation requirements.  

But no, manufacturers insist on increasing resolution and keeping the same sized bodies, or, as this thread has included, they put too much processing into a camera body and will let it fail to operate and then declare that this is a normal and acceptable product design.  They have even managed to convince large numbers of people that this is something to be expected - I find this kind of thing to be bizarre.

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

Maybe we should have a thread devoted to creative uses of cheap, consumer cams for professional video. It would be very interesting. As long as people stop being pretentious and sanctimonious. 

Every thread is that thread, including this one.  I'm not sure why you thought it wasn't....

[markr041]

34 minutes ago, kye said:

No straw man attacks here - I simply replied to your comment:

by explaining why people might take long boring takes from one position.

True, and I also enjoy this as well, but it's not always about pushing just for the fun of it, size can also be a significant factor.

There are a significant number of reasons that someone might want to shoot using a camera/rig that's as physically small as possible.  Unfortunately, almost the entire industry is based around the idea that if you want better video quality then you will be happy having a larger camera, which is an assumption that works in many use-cases, but not all.

The critics of this perspective cite the reality of needing to have large enough batteries and to dissipate heat etc, but the factor that this doesn't take into consideration is resolution.  8K60 is 10 times the data-rate of 4K 24p and 40 times the data-rate of 2K 24p.  Things like screens consume about the same amount of power regardless of the resolution of the camera, so you can't just reduce the battery by a factor of 10x, but even if it meant you could quarter the size, then you're also quartering the heat dissipation requirements.  

But no, manufacturers insist on increasing resolution and keeping the same sized bodies, or, as this thread has included, they put too much processing into a camera body and will let it fail to operate and then declare that this is a normal and acceptable product design.  They have even managed to convince large numbers of people that this is something to be expected - I find this kind of thing to be bizarre.

Every thread is that thread, including this one.  I'm not sure why you thought it wasn't....

I dont think anyone in this thread is talking about creative use of the zv e1, except the guy who posts actual videos from it, whatever their worth.

Putting a zv e1 on a tripod, pressing the record button, and leaving the camera on is not a "creative" use of the camera. Get it? It is a use for sure. So would using the camera as a hammer. Whatever you like.

I reacted to the continued posts about overheating. Each camera has a best use and a worst use. I emphasized the best use. You can guess what I think is the worst. But if that's what people want to do, just great! Go for it.

[Django]

Academy award winning cinematographer Greig Fraiser (Dune, Rogue One, Lion) shot his upcoming sci-fi thriller entirely on an FX3 apparently. The ZV-E1 has the same sensor, image processor, 10-bit codec, S-LOG3 & even LUT support. I'm sure we'll end up seeing incredible cinematic footage produced with it. It is certainly capable of it for sure.

That being said, not to sound like a broken record but the fact the camera overheats does limit its use. So maybe not the most reliable option for pro work vs A7S3/FX3 with passive/active cooling systems. 

I've done work myself with overheating cameras in the past (R5,R6) so its doable but its stressful and better suited as B or C cams to be on the safe side. The ZV-E1 seems even more unreliable than those because of its ultra compact size. We know for instance that indoors it is very sensitive to ambient temperature. What the latest findings show is that air flow is key. Hence why it is better suited as a Vlog cam where you are outdoors in motion, or as a travel cam where you are generally shooting short clips outdoors. And in both cases, even if the camera overheats, no biggie, take a coffee break let it cool off.

But when there is a will there is a way, rig a mini fan on it and you may have yourself indeed a budget mini FX3! 

9 minutes ago, kye said:

But no, manufacturers insist on increasing resolution and keeping the same sized bodies, or, as this thread has included, they put too much processing into a camera body and will let it fail to operate and then declare that this is a normal and acceptable product design.  They have even managed to convince large numbers of people that this is something to be expected - I find this kind of thing to be bizarre.

Not that bizarre. No cooling = overheat. FX3/FX30/R5C/S1H have active cooling so don't overheat.

Sony has not played into the resolution wars with their A7S3/FX3/FX6/ZVE1 cameras. All 12MB 1:1 4K cameras. 

Overheating isn't resolution related its high frame rate and high bitrate compressed 10-bit codec related. Its when these appeared that overheating started plaguing mirrorless bodies. Its also why Sigma chose not to implement internal 10-bit compressed on their ultra compact FP. Its either RAW or 8-bit.

 

 

[FHDcrew]

39 minutes ago, Django said:

Its also why Sigma chose not to implement internal 10-bit compressed on their ultra compact FP. Its either RAW or 8-bit.

Yes, and the beautiful thing about how Sigma handled it is it’s uncompressed CDNG, so it’s literally reading the sensor and dumping the raw feed to the card, wrapping it up in the DNG format. Couldn’t get easier. Whole reason why old canon cameras can do 14-bit RAW continuously without overheating (ok not in a .DNG format straight of the bat but still)

[FHDcrew]

In my opinion, camera companies should be giving their $2,000+ uncompressed internal RAW recording in a simple manner. The Canon 5D II can do this but the $2000 Panasonic S5 II cannot. 

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, Django said:

No cooling = overheat. FX3/FX30/R5C/S1H have active cooling so don't overheat.

Right. Good time for external cooling then when you need long time recording on those without it:

And that's it :- )

[kye]

11 hours ago, markr041 said:

Putting a zv e1 on a tripod, pressing the record button, and leaving the camera on is not a "creative" use of the camera. Get it? It is a use for sure. So would using the camera as a hammer. Whatever you like.

I disagree.

Creativity is about creating, plain and simple.  While we can debate if making videos or films is "art" or not, and we can debate what is and isn't "art" forever (because that debate has been going for the entire history of mankind practically), I don't see that the level of creativity of a final edited video/film relies solely (or even that substantially) about if you hand-hold the camera and grab 10s clips or if you put it on a tripod and record 20 minute clips.

I don't know you, and I don't know what work you have or haven't done, but you're not speaking like someone who understands the entirety of the creative process.

Camera YouTube and the online camera ecosystem of forums and blogs gives a completely fictitious impression that the camera is the main item when it comes to creating moving images (moving in an emotional as well as literal way).  I have come to understand that the following things are so much more important to the creative process that they eclipse the camera entirely:

• Whatever preparation you do prior to filming anything (writing, scripting, concept designing, location scouting, etc)
• What you put in front of the camera (casting, production design, lighting, directing, acting, etc)
• What you do with the footage you have captured (editing, vfx, story structure, music and sound design, etc)
• What you do with the final edit (audience selection, distribution, promotion, etc)

If you can't understand how recording footage from a tripod could be used in a deeply creative way, then you don't understand film-making that well.  A large proportion of TV/streaming content is made from long recordings of fixed cameras - reality TV, documentaries (that typically have hundreds or thousands of hours of interview footage), game shows, most talking-head YouTube content filmed in a fixed location, music videos, etc.  Is there lots of content where the camera is taking short clips, preferably from a moving camera?  Sure, but it's not the only type of content.

Take this recent comment from the Godfather of vlogging:

It's not until you really study how professional content is made that you start to understand what goes into things.  Are you familiar with shooting ratios?  

Feature films can vary wildly:

and documentaries are often a lot larger (as you may not know what the story is going to be until after it happens, so you tend to just shoot everything):

Quote

For documentary films, however, it is different. While you usually have a conception in your mind about what the final story will look like, you have to be ready to follow your subjects wherever the story takes you. For this reason the shooting ratio on a documentary film is likely to be more like 60:1, one hour of footage for each minute used in the final film. Some documentary films might even be as high as 80:1, or higher. For Please Don’t Beat Me, Sir!, which is 75 minutes long, we shot over 200 hours of footage. You might interview someone for an hour but only end up using a thirty second sound bite from the whole interview. The problem is, until you are in the editing room, you never know which thirty second sound bite will be the one you need.

Source: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2014/06/07/how-much-data-do-you-need-like-documentary-film-making-research-requires-far-greater-coverage-than-the-final-cut/

So, you may think that capturing 30 minute clips from a static location makes for boring footage, and you're likely right, but that's literally what editing is for.  This is one of the (many) reasons that film-making is hard work.  Going back to our friend Casey Neistat for a second, during the time he did a daily vlog for something like 800 days in a row, he mentioned that most of his vlogs took between 5-9 hours to edit.  That's somewhere between 15-60 minutes of editing time per minute of final footage.  I don't know how much footage he actually shot, but when he's interviewing people he's often severely chopping the footage down.  He recently mentioned one example where he cut down 25 minutes of interview (during which the camera was rolling the whole time) to 60-75 seconds in the final edit of the video he made.

If Casey Neistat, who revolutionised vlogging, needs a camera that can roll for 25 minutes reliably, then making the claim that long locked-off shots aren't "creative" then you've eliminated vast vast sections of the content created.

9 hours ago, Django said:

Not that bizarre. No cooling = overheat. FX3/FX30/R5C/S1H have active cooling so don't overheat.

I understand why it overheats, and why Sony would make a camera that overheats.  The thing I find bizarre is that customers have somehow come to accept that cameras overheating is somehow normal, and not a sign of an inferior product.

It's pretty clear that professional environments require equipment that has rock-solid reliability, and so the high-end / professional cameras are built for reliability.

Where I think there is a lack of understanding is when it comes to lower-budget environments.  If you have a lower budget then you're probably shooting in situations where you are less in control of the environment.  So not only does this mean that you're less able to control the situation that the camera is in (and ensure it's not exposed to adverse temperatures / conditions) but you're also likely to require longer record times because the likelihood of getting the shot you want is lower.

[Emanuel]

Very true @kye, priceless post, mate : ) I think it's more how to learn with the limitations but you're pretty on the spot about everything you said :- )

[Emanuel]

*how to learn to live with

 

I give two examples on overheating side of the walk:

ZV-E1's 4K 120fps will beat FX30;

Z8's internal powered 8K 60p coupled with IBIS will beat R5C.

 

:- )

 

[ntblowz]

So I tried both Sigma 28-70 2.8 and Sony 20-70 in store, man the dynamic IS on Sony lens totally blow away the third party lens.  When I tried the dynamic IS on Sigma the only thing it did was crop more but stabilization is still similar to a73 with tamron 28-75mm I used to have. On Sony 20-70 it felt like it glued on the screen. 

 

And 28mm with DIS is way too narrow, on 20mm it felt ok since it is wider in the first place.