Sony lack of firmware updates is getting completely ridiculous!

[Amazeballs]

I own A7S3. There have been no major updates for this camera in a fucking eternity! Now they release ZV-E1 which has the same sensor and processor (according to Gerald) and every a7S3 owner is obviously pissed off. Its got so many new features that we all want but not going to get, cos SONY IS... I really dont know, what is their reason to justify this obnoxious attiude. Do they want to simply increase sales a tiny bit by doing it, in exchange of a major reputation damage? What are they thinking? Maybe we need to start an online petition, ah? There are a ton of videos on youtube complaining about it over and over again, Philip Bloom did a video, Gerald adressed it, in the comments people are raged, but still nothing. Sony is not adressing, not talking about it, not giving any timeline of new firmware updates, they are completely silent on the subject. 

Maybe Andrew can interview them and ask that question directly? WTF is going on? That would be nice. I dont understand why a company would create such a terrible case in the first place. The loayalty and attitude of your fanbase and community is extremly important espescially nowdays, when fewer and fewer ppl by cameras. For me it became a substantial reason to even think about switching. I am looking at Panasonic - they are very generous with their firmware and camera support for years. Now they have PDAF, they have the best IBIS in town, I just want them to make o compact (not a huge 1kg monster), affordable camera that has FF 4k60p and might seriosly consider switching. 

[Django]

Leadership position syndrome. Sony have become the new Canon. Little to No firmware upgrades. Heavy segmentation. Paper spec cameras that overheat. Zero regards towards criticism. 

That being I always tell people, buy a camera (or any digital product) for what it can do today. Don't expect added specs down the line, you're most likely setting yourself up for disappointment. 

[markr041]

There was a major firmware update for the Sony fx3. It included a complete overhaul of the menu system, removal of Slog2, LUT import, Cine EI, and time code synch. Matching features that appeared in the newer fx30.

Most of the feature upgrades in firmware and in new cameras seem to me to be specific to video - focus breathing compensation, LUTs, timecode synch, etc. Thus, specific to cinema (video-oriented cameras). How much do stills shooters benefit from any of the new add-ons? Very little. So, hybrid cameras are evidently considered mainly stills camera, like the a7siii (the stills camera equivalent to the fx3).

[ntblowz]

Meanwhile R5 got new firmware that does 402MP photos from ibis shift, not bad for a cam that is older than a7siii.

[markr041]

11 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Meanwhile R5 got new firmware that does 402MP photos from ibis shift, not bad for a cam that is older than a7siii.

Jpeg only. Stills shooters were very disappointed. And video shooters were enraged there were no improvements for video.

[Amazeballs]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

There was a major firmware update for the Sony fx3. It included a complete overhaul of the menu system, removal of Slog2, LUT import, Cine EI, and time code synch. Matching features that appeared in the newer fx30.

Most of the feature upgrades in firmware and in new cameras seem to me to be specific to video - focus breathing compensation, LUTs, timecode synch, etc. Thus, specific to cinema (video-oriented cameras). How much do stills shooters benefit from any of the new add-ons? Very little. So, hybrid cameras are evidently considered mainly stills camera, like the a7siii (the stills camera equivalent to the fx3).

That is a ridiculous argument. A7s3 is photo camera now? Is this a joke? Everyone know its a video-first camera. Now I think Sony have moved from S series to FX now, but that doesnt mean that A7S3 suddenly became obsolete. 

[scotchtape]

It sucks, and maybe I am too old now, but it's more or less always been like this for SONY in general... like back from the walkman/discman/minidisk players.  Once the next big thing is released, that is pretty much it, the product you have almost doesn't exist anymore. I'm actually surprised they even do firmware updates at all.

I'm not saying it's good, just unsurprising considering the company as a whole. Not sure why they don't want to develop good will with the camera community, but I guess if it doesn't hurt them financially why would they care.

[FHDcrew]

1 hour ago, Amazeballs said:

That is a ridiculous argument. A7s3 is photo camera now? Is this a joke? Everyone know its a video-first camera. Now I think Sony have moved from S series to FX now, but that doesnt mean that A7S3 suddenly became obsolete. 

Agreed. Strange argument, I partially agree with mark but at the same time it obviously is video first. 

[markr041]

3 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

That is a ridiculous argument. A7s3 is photo camera now? Is this a joke? Everyone know its a video-first camera. Now I think Sony have moved from S series to FX now, but that doesnt mean that A7S3 suddenly became obsolete. 

The a7siii is a hybrid camera that takes great video. But, it is not a video camera - most importantly, it overheats at high video frame rates especially. Its ergonomics are exactly the same as Sony stills cameras. If you want a video camera from Sony with the same innards, you have the fx3, which does not overheat and which has ergonomics - hardware - better suited to video. 

Is this unfair to abandon the hybrid camera in terms of video upgrades? Maybe. But what are you really missing out on?

The a7siii video image is fine, same as the fx3 even post updates. The missed upgrades really do not matter that much for image quality - do you really need synched time code? Do you really care about menu configurations? Is adding LUTs beyond the REC709 viewing LUT for Slog3 important? 

And, I believe the fx3 updates did NOT add built-in breathing correction; but, the fx30 has that out of the box. So, again, the fx3 and the a7siii have the same video capability. You cannot fix the overheating of the a7siii with a firmware upgrade, or give it tally lights, or a zoom rocker, or eliminate the viewfinder hump. An no firmware update made the fx3 image better than the a7siii image either.

And most if not all of the new features of the ZV E1 are laughable for serious videographers. Do you really want severely cropped auto framing? Product mode. Seriously.

 

[Django]

The A7SIII is definitely a video oriented hybrid though and could strongly benefit from some of the new features inside FX3/FX30 and ZV-E1. Notably LUT support which isn't limited to viewing but can also be baked-in. Very useful for fast turnover projects. Breathing compensation is a big one. And of course the new AF enhancements. These will all for sure enhance your shooting results and so yes improve the final image. 

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

An no firmware update made the fx3 image better than the a7siii image either.

Side by side tests have shown Cine EI gives cleaner results. Also FX30 has less NR. So yes firmware can improve IQ.

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

And most if not all of the new features of the ZV E1 are laughable for serious videographers. Do you really want severely cropped auto framing? Product mode. Seriously.

The AF improvements are substantial, and a lot of A7SIII users would like the added animal detection etc.

 

Anyways like I said, one should never buy a camera hoping for new features down the line but its also hard to understand how you could argue against firmware updates. Other companies have been really good with that lately so people expect this with Sony but their company policy just isn't tuned towards that.

[markr041]

7 minutes ago, Django said:

The A7SIII is definitely a video oriented hybrid though and could strongly benefit from some of the new features inside FX3/FX30 and ZV-E1. Notably LUT support which isn't limited to viewing but can also be baked-in. Very useful for fast turnover projects. Breathing compensation is a big one. And of course the new AF enhancements. These will all for sure enhance your shooting results and so yes improve the final image. 

Side by side tests have shown Cine EI gives cleaner results. Also FX30 has less NR. So yes firmware can improve IQ.

The AF improvements are substantial, and a lot of A7SIII users would like the added animal detection etc.

 

Anyways like I said, one should never buy a camera hoping for new features down the line but its also hard to understand how you could argue against firmware updates. Other companies have been really good with that lately so people expect this with Sony but their company policy just isn't tuned towards that.

You are confounding the new fx30 and firmware updates for the fx3. The fx3 does not have breathing compensation nor improved AF from firmware upgrades special to it. It does not have less noise reduction via firmware updates either. These non additions to the fx3, but features of the fx30, suggest they are not possible for updating the a7siii either. These fx30 added features is not evidence of Sony holding back on firmware updates for older cameras with different hardware.

The fx30 is not the same hardware as the fx3 or the a7siii. It is a new model.  So, the better AF and breathing compensation that it has may require different hardware, so that no firmware upgrade is possible. fx3 cameras did not get these fx30 features.

I think it was you who claimed the fx30 was noisier and thus much inferior in low light to the fx3. Now you are saying less noise reduction is a desirable feature of the fx30? Yes, the smaller sensor/pixels of the fx30 do make it inherently noisier, but for the same NR, not so very much different in most situations. 4K 120p is definitely significantly noisier, but that is because the fx30 uses a 1:1 crop of the sensor in that mode, unlike 4K up through 60 fps, and those smaller pixels then matter.

I don't understand how Cine El improves images, it is just a way to shoot. Base ISO and how you use it matters, but that can be done with the a7siii, just less easily. Do you understand how you can get better Slog3 image quality from the same sensor, processor, gamma, gamut, and base ISO from the fx3 compared to the a7siii?

Finally, baking in LUTs is indeed a new firmware feature of the fx3. But hardly one meriting all the whining.

And, yes, firmware updates are always good, but not always important, or possible for adding certain features given hardware constraints, as we have seen.

[Django]

49 minutes ago, markr041 said:

You are confounding the new fx30 and firmware updates for the fx3. The fx3 does not have breathing compensation nor improved AF from firmware upgrades special to it. It does not have less noise reduction via firmware updates either. These non additions to the fx3, but features of the fx30, suggest they are not possible for updating the a7siii either. These fx30 added features is not evidence of Sony holding back on firmware updates for older cameras with different hardware.

The fx30 is not the same hardware as the fx3 or the a7siii. It is a new model.  So, the better AF and breathing compensation that it has may require different hardware, so that no firmware upgrade is possible. fx3 cameras did not get these fx30 features.

I think it was you who claimed the fx30 was noisier and thus much inferior in low light to the fx3. Now you are saying less noise reduction is a desirable feature of the fx30? Yes, the smaller sensor/pixels of the fx30 do make it inherently noisier, but for the same NR, not so very much different in most situations. 4K 120p is definitely significantly noisier, but that is because the fx30 uses a 1:1 crop of the sensor in that mode, unlike 4K up through 60 fps, and those smaller pixels then matter.

I don't understand how Cine El improves images, it is just a way to shoot. Base ISO and how you use it matters, but that can be done with the a7siii, just less easily. Do you understand how you can get better Slog3 image quality from the same sensor, processor, gamma, gamut, and base ISO from the fx3 compared to the a7siii?

Finally, baking in LUTs is indeed a new firmware feature of the fx3. But hardly one meriting all the whining.

And, yes, firmware updates are always good, but not always important, or possible for adding certain features given hardware constraints, as we have seen.

I'm not confusing anything. You are starting to sound like a Sony apologist. The ZV-E1 is total proof that AF, breathing comp etc can totally be ported to the A7S3 as the ZV-E1 uses the same sensor and processor. That old excuse of outdated hardware is not valid anymore.

As for the FX30, you are twisting my words. What I said was that the FX30 is worst than the A7S3 at low-light. Meaning it has indeed more noise at high ISO. That being said it also has less aggressive NR which is of course a better thing. 

As for Cine EI, its been my understanding from shooting with it for some time on FS/FX cams that it also affects NR, sharpening and other image processing:

It optimises the camera so that settings such as the recording ISO, noise reduction and sharpening are all optimised for recording the highest possible quality S-Log3 or raw material with the largest possible dynamic range.

https://www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/

 

 

[ntblowz]

9 hours ago, markr041 said:

Jpeg only. Stills shooters were very disappointed. And video shooters were enraged there were no improvements for video.

Still better than the how many firmware that A7SIII got for $3500 when it was released, A7SIII could really use the IBIS shift to make its MP much bigger for starter.  At least if I want really high resolution I have the option, rather than no option. Though I hope it will have RAW in the future like other brand do.

I kinda feel for A7SIII user, paying big money but the service that Sony provide is pretty skimpy.

[Andrew Reid]

21 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Philip Bloom did a video, Gerald adressed it, in the comments people are raged, but still nothing.

I'd rather they DIDN'T turn the A7S III into a ZV-E1

Nearly all the new features are a dumb bag of shite designed to help people with no effort to make better vlogs!

What do you want from the ZV-E1 that isn't in the A7S III that you really need?

As for the reason behind a lack of firmware updates, it's because the A7S III is still selling well and is already feature-packed... so it doesn't matter what Gerald says really, if it is selling well, they don't need to change it.

21 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Sony is not adressing, not talking about it, not giving any timeline of new firmware updates, they are completely silent on the subject. 

Maybe Andrew can interview them and ask that question directly? WTF is going on? That would be nice.

They'd just give me a PR line and mention the firmware updates they have done, like the a1 10bit 422.

I agree with you Sony is lazy when it comes to nice firmware updates vs the others, but the best option is to sell the camera and buy a Panasonic or a Fuji if you are unhappy with it. Best way to get Sony to change.

On the other hand I do think the A7S III is hardly lacking in features?

[newfoundmass]

48 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

As for the reason behind a lack of firmware updates, it's because the A7S III is still selling well and is already feature-packed... so it doesn't matter what Gerald says really, if it is selling well, they don't need to change it.

I'd also argue that they've already got people's money, so they don't care. They want you to buy the next camera, not increase the value of the camera you've already bought. And it works, because more than a couple notable YouTubers ended up getting the A1 and the A7RV after selling the A7SIII, which I'm sure then influenced others to do the same since that's how it works. I just wish more people cared about this shitty behavior.

[markr041]

10 hours ago, Django said:

I'm not confusing anything. You are starting to sound like a Sony apologist. The ZV-E1 is total proof that AF, breathing comp etc can totally be ported to the A7S3 as the ZV-E1 uses the same sensor and processor. That old excuse of outdated hardware is not valid anymore.

As for the FX30, you are twisting my words. What I said was that the FX30 is worst than the A7S3 at low-light. Meaning it has indeed more noise at high ISO. That being said it also has less aggressive NR which is of course a better thing. 

As for Cine EI, its been my understanding from shooting with it for some time on FS/FX cams that it also affects NR, sharpening and other image processing:

It optimises the camera so that settings such as the recording ISO, noise reduction and sharpening are all optimised for recording the highest possible quality S-Log3 or raw material with the largest possible dynamic range.

https://www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/

 

 

Thanks for the information on Cine EI.

What you said about the fx30 that I was referring to was this: "Tons of noise in the shadows, especially at high frame rates." That is specifically about the fx30 120 fps 4K, which is far worse in noise than lower frame rates on the fx30, including 60 fps (which is considered high also), because it is a 1:1 crop. And yes, if you are going to compare noise, then you need to take into account the amount of noise reduction. We agree that less noise reduction is good, and that is what the fx30 has.

Breathing comp and AF have nothing to do with the sensor. You do not know that the fx30 and the ZV E1 have the same processors or chips (hardware) as the a7siii (Sony processor names are not informative). And note that the fx3, which does have exactly the same sensor and processors as the a7siii, did not get the updates for breathing compensation or AF either. That gives us a clue. And, again, the other features of the ZV E1 are silly; no serious videographer would use cropped, resolution-lossy, automatic framing!

Hardware differences may be an old excuse, but that does not make it incorrect.

You are "sounding like" a Sony hater (I do not think you are, but I am giving you a taste of what it is like to name call like you did - "Sony apologist" - really?). Given that I shoot with Canon and Sony and Panasonic and Blackmagic and even GoPro, I do not give a damn about manufacturers. And sure, I would like updates to older cameras too. But some of those are pipe dreams.

[MrSMW]

Sony not offering firmware updates doesn’t bother me. I use Lumix cameras.

But being serious, I have never purchased a camera based on a promise of what it might or will be at some point in the future. I will buy it (or not) based on merit with what it comes with.

If something is updated with something I find useful, then that is a bonus, but not an expectation.

I’d be very happy with a pair of FX30’s plus a single A7V straight out of their boxes.

[Django]

23 hours ago, markr041 said:

Breathing comp and AF have nothing to do with the sensor. You do not know that the fx30 and the ZV E1 have the same processors or chips (hardware) as the a7siii (Sony processor names are not informative). And note that the fx3, which does have exactly the same sensor and processors as the a7siii, did not get the updates for breathing compensation or AF either. That gives us a clue.

Gerald Undone covers this in his ZV-E1 review. Same sensor and processor. The only clue this gives us is that Sony likes giving new units new features, not old ones. This is an obvious commercial strategy of theirs and not limited to these cameras.  

23 hours ago, markr041 said:

You are "sounding like" a Sony hater (I do not think you are, but I am giving you a taste of what it is like to name call like you did - "Sony apologist" - really?)

I shoot Sony professionally. But I have no qualms in calling them out on their shenanigans. Many others are as well including Sony ambassadors. The fact that you seem oblivious to that and keep giving them excuses is why I said that, no offence meant. 

[Amazeballs]

Listen, guys. I love my A7S3. Yes I would love to have new dynamic stab, and better AF. I also would want a new video oriented clean on-screen menu layout, but I can live without it. The camera still rocks. The problem is not about it beeing crucial feautures, its the attitude to the community, to us, its customurs. And this attitude stinks. In our age not giving your hardware avalible software updates is really really unexusable. Showing support to your older product is showing love to your customers. And feeling abandoned for a new youger girlfriend is not exactly a stimulating emotional experience. 

[newfoundmass]

12 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Listen, guys. I love my A7S3. Yes I would love to have new dynamic stab, and better AF. I also would want a new video oriented clean on-screen menu layout, but I can live without it. The camera still rocks. The problem is not about it beeing crucial feautures, its the attitude to the community, to us, its customurs. And this attitude stinks. In our age not giving your hardware avalible software updates is really really unexusable. Showing support to your older product is showing love to your customers. And feeling abandoned for a new youger girlfriend is not exactly a stimulating emotional experience. 

It's one thing if the hardware can't support it, or if the camera is ancient, but the only reason these new features aren't being added to recent cameras via firmware is because Sony doesn't want to. As you said, they are features you can live without, but that's not really the point. These companies want brand loyalty without giving it back in return.