Sony lack of firmware updates is getting completely ridiculous!

[ntblowz]

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

These companies want brand loyalty without giving it back in return.

 

It's pretty much the same for all other companies like mobile provider, power companies, bank etc try to lure new user with amazing deals while existing customer base they dont give a frak.

 

In terms of income of course new product will give company more revenue vs firmware update which wont get company new revenue and that wont cover the cost of those programmers/testers which the company have to pay themselves.

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, ntblowz said:

It's pretty much the same for all other companies like mobile provider, power companies, bank etc try to lure new user with amazing deals while existing customer base they dont give a frak

Same as it’s always been and something I have never understood because surely any company, large or small, is going to maintain loyalty by looking after their existing customers which is cheaper than chasing new ones.

I have never understood this mentality 🤔

When it comes to the camera industry, certain folks such as Canon and Leica seem to have a lot of brand loyalty from their older fan base as does Nikon just because of their perceived established history.

Fuji has developed a certain cache in recent years due to their product, their firmware upgrades and the whole vintage/retro/funky slight underdog vibe.

Panasonic have some brand loyalty due to their quality but almost near fuck all community recently, (had some with the GH cameras but limited with full frame) though that seems to be coming back a bit with the S5ii as many of last weeks Sony fan club have jumped on Lumix this week.

Sony is the wunderkind on the block that seems to attract the youngest element (along with Fuji) but seems to have the most flip floppers who seem to dip in and out of the brand all the time, but seem to be giving with one hand (inovation) but withholding on the other a la Canon in order to protect sales of other lines.

Basically I don’t give a single one of them a pass and not a single one of them earns my loyalty as a brand. I simply choose and use what is the least compromised option, within my budget, for my needs.

[Django]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

When it comes to the camera industry, certain folks such as Canon and Leica seem to have a lot of brand loyalty from their older fan base as does Nikon just because of their perceived established history.

It's more than just a legacy thing. Canon & Nikon at the DSLR height really took care of their customers with loyalty programs, pro services etc. For major sporting events they have their infamous stockpile rooms available to sponsored photogs:

 

Canon I feel go a step further and since they have the cine line offer services at their Burbank facility in LA. Here in Paris, if I have an issue I can call and meet someone. Nikon used to have a walk-in office Boulevard Beaumarchais, as well as the Nikon School. They do have Nikon Plaza now in the 6ème, pretty cool location too with interesting events and of course the Nikon Film Festival which has become a huge thing in France.

Leica are on a similar but different path. Much more intimate. You have official boutiques in every major city. The staff there are extremely knowledgeable and passionate and every shop has their own certified Leica engineer in his white lab coat. Its not just for show as he will fix your camera on the spot. It's basically the traditional experience you'd get at a high-end watchmaker or hand tailor.

This type of service to me is invaluable and definitely builds a human connection with the company and hence, loyalty.

Sony I'm afraid has nothing of the sort AFAIK. You have an issue, you file a ticket online and have to send the camera/lens back to some warehouse in the Netherlands, if they even accept your claim (I've had mine rejected, no dispute possible).

Imaging is just a fraction of their other core businesses. What they have been very strong at, is social media presence, especially YouTube. They keep converting influencers by basically buying them out, luring them to exotic locations for camera releases and then making deals with them. Its fair business I guess but a little disheartening. I've had several Canon shooters I follow switch overnight, no real explanation.

Anyways, I am a Sony shooter. Not really by choice but because the industry basically demands it. They make good products no doubt, lousy policies though. Its strictly business to them, zero customer care. So yeah, loyalty wise its no surprise people dip in & out with them. My $0.02c.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Django said:

Here in Paris, if I have an issue I can call and meet someone. Nikon used to have a walk-in office Boulevard Beaumarchais, as well as the Nikon School. They do have Nikon Plaza now in the 6ème, pretty cool location too with interesting events and of course the Nikon Film Festival which has become a huge thing in France.

We should meet up some time and do a photo walk or something now that I live only 2 hours away from Paris by train.

I was there last weekend actually, but family stuff for a few days.

I didn't know about the Nikon place/event, - could be interesting even though I have not been a Nikon shooter in over a decade now.

[ntblowz]

https://www.canonrumors.com/more-features-coming-to-canon-eos-r5-in-future-firmware-cr2/

Seems like there will be 2 more feature firmware coming to R5. I hope one of them is 30min removal.

[Ilkka Nissila]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:04 PM, Django said:

Gerald Undone covers this in his ZV-E1 review. Same sensor and processor. The only clue this gives us is that Sony likes giving new units new features, not old ones. This is an obvious commercial strategy of theirs and not limited to these cameras. 

ZV-E1 and A7RV have a new dedicated AI processor (absent from the other bodies) which is used to implement these new subject-detection and tracking features that go beyond the capabilities of the older products in some ways. While some version of the algorithms could probably be implemented on the older hardware, it would probably be a pain for the engineers to try to make the new algorithms that were developed for the new AI processor work on old hardware. From the Sony web page: "Real-time Recognition AF incorporates an innovative AI processing unit that uses subject form data to accurately recognise movement – human pose estimation technology uses learned human forms and postures to recognise not just eyes, but body and head position with high precision, making it possible to lock onto and track a subject facing away from the camera. The AI processing unit can even differentiate between multiple subjects having different postures and recognition of individual faces has also been improved so that tracking reliability is achieved in challenging situations such as when a subject’s face is tilted, in shadow, or backlit. In addition to Human and Animal[xxiii], the AI processing unit now makes it possible to recognise Bird[xxiv], Insect, Car/Train and Airplane[xxv] subjects, providing even greater flexibility and reliability when shooting both stills and video."

[Ilkka Nissila]

Here is a picture of the AI processor in the A7R V:

 

[Django]

40 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

ZV-E1 and A7RV have a new dedicated AI processor (absent from the other bodies) which is used to implement these new subject-detection and tracking features that go beyond the capabilities of the older products in some ways. While some version of the algorithms could probably be implemented on the older hardware, it would probably be a pain for the engineers to try to make the new algorithms that were developed for the new AI processor work on old hardware.

Yes yes I'm aware of that. But a lot of things like focus compensation and basic animal eye AF don't require the new AI chip. They were there in A7IV which doesn't have it. The AI chip obviously enhances the AF and allows all the auto-framing stuff and that's not something you'd expect to be ported over to older models. But even simple things like the new menus for A7SIII or shutter angle for the FX3/FX30 should be really easy to implement but no dice. The most frustrating for those users is complete radio silence despite numerous rants from even Sony ambassadors. 

 

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

We should meet up some time and do a photo walk or something now that I live only 2 hours away from Paris by train.

I was there last weekend actually, but family stuff for a few days.

I didn't know about the Nikon place/event, - could be interesting even though I have not been a Nikon shooter in over a decade now.

Sounds good shoot me a PM next time your coming up! 😉 

[ZackPappy]

As someone who owns both the A7siii and the FX3, it appalls me that my 7siii was the same price on the get go, and that camera has largely devalued while the FX3 has stayed in its price range with features that could work out. Additionally, A7sii was advertised as a video-centric camera and has the capacity for 4k 120UHD with 1.1x crop. It can definitely handle adding some more features to it to align with it's large FX brothers such as:

• DCI 4k (forgoing image stabilization)
• True 24p and respective shutters 
• Potentially 48p UHD or DCI4k (without stabilization)
• Focus Breathing Compensation (at least for UHD)
• Anamorphic Desqueeze

Obviously the FX3 was built with more intent to handle more efficient menu features and pro tools like true timecode compatibility without audio scratch, internal cooling, ergonomics for audio interface, etc. I do think however people get strangely caught up too much in how the A7siii has the same physical form factor as other photography cameras because it has a physical shutter and a viewfinder. Realistically however, that isn't keeping the A7siii from devaluing in used marketplaces by roughly $7-800 during high demand seasons where the FX3 maybe loses $2-300 retail in the same environment. 

They're both similar cameras sold close to the same time for very much the same price, and it's disappointing to see the 7siii get neglected as hard as it has, especially in the wake of a vlog style camera with the same video codecs, sensor and processor with much better firmware, improved af, more automatic features, app/mobile & wireless firmware update compatibility, etc. They need to come out with something or we're going to see another price drop for the camera in 6 months or less.

[Django]

FX3 & FX30 just got a major 3.0/2.0 update today that adds Anamorphic De-Squeeze, True 24p, 4K DCI Recording.. and Breathing Compensation.

While this is great news for FX users, this once again proves that AI chip or not, the A7Siii is capable of more but is getting ignored atm. 

[Thpriest]

Still no shutter angle?

[markr041]

5 hours ago, Django said:

FX3 & FX30 just got a major 3.0/2.0 update today that adds Anamorphic De-Squeeze, True 24p, 4K DCI Recording.. and Breathing Compensation.

While this is great news for FX users, this once again proves that AI chip or not, the A7Siii is capable of more but is getting ignored 

 The fx3 and fx30 are cameras for people who take video seriously. And cameras like the a7s iii are not for them or other hybrids, with or without breathing compensation. Of course this does not mean an owner of an a7siii is not professional. Just she ended up with the wrong camera. 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, Django said:

FX3 & FX30 just got a major 3.0/2.0 update today that adds Anamorphic De-Squeeze, True 24p, 4K DCI Recording.. and Breathing Compensation.

A lesson here for any future purchases:

If you're buying a Sony camera primarily for filming with, get one of their FX Series bodies which is foremost designed for, not an A Series body that's for the stills photographers. 

[John Matthews]

31 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

A lesson here for any future purchases:

If you're buying a Sony camera primarily for filming with, get one of their FX Series bodies which is foremost designed for, not an A Series body that's for the stills photographers. 

Also "firmware updates" are synonymous with "new bodies" in Sony land.

[Fairkid]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

 The fx3 and fx30 are cameras for people who take video seriously. And cameras like the a7s iii are not for them or other hybrids, with or without breathing compensation. Of course this does not mean an owner of an a7siii is not professional. Just she ended up with the wrong camera. 

I would still buy the A7SIII over the FX3 for dedicated video use as you get the EVF and it's better value. The firmware does not affect the image or improve the ease much in my opinion. 

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

The fx3 and fx30 are cameras for people who take video seriously. And cameras like the a7s iii are not for them or other hybrids

People can repeat that until they're blue in the face but it won't suddenly make it true. 

[markr041]

2 hours ago, Fairkid said:

I would still buy the A7SIII over the FX3 for dedicated video use as you get the EVF and it's better value. The firmware does not affect the image or improve the ease much in my opinion. 

That's perfectly reasonable. But, 4K DCI  and 24.0p do affect the image, as do focus breathing compensation and allegedly the EI options. LUT use for baking in camera also. But if those are not important, then there is no need to whine about lack of the fx firmware updates.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, markr041 said:

That's perfectly reasonable. But, 4K DCI  and 24.0p do affect the image, as do focus breathing compensation and allegedly the EI options. LUT use for baking in camera also. But if those are not important, then there is no need to whine about lack of the fx firmware updates.

And got to look at the big picture, other stuff such as "not overheating" and "timecode capable" might not impact the image itself, but have a big impact on the production itself!

[A_Urquhart]

20 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

And got to look at the big picture, other stuff such as "not overheating" and "timecode capable" might not impact the image itself, but have a big impact on the production itself!

100%! Most people just look at specs when it comes to cameras but reliability and usability for professionals (and even amateurs) shouldn't be overlooked. Timecode support, better ergo body, no overheating, multiple tally lights etc etc all play a big part of why the last Hybrid camera I bought for video was a GH3 way back then. I hated using the a7 series for video, It just wasn't designed for it and had far too many shortcomings. 

I'm guessing that the 'Cinema Line' cameras have different product managers and fall under different departments at Sony compared to the Alphs cameras and this may be why Firmware updates on one product line don't automatically apply to the photo line despite the hardware being very similar. Don't know.

There is a case for buying a tool designed for the job you want to do. While it may not have a mechanical shutter, EVF etc etc at least buying a 'Cinema Line' camera if you just need video means you know that the main focus of the product developers for you camera apply 100% to your use and not stills.

[MrSMW]

Speaking of baking in LUTS, I am wondering/hoping that the S1H might get a firmware update to do this as the new S5ii can do.

That would make my workflow a whole lot easier and as I only really have one client to please (me) regarding grading, would be useful.