Any recommendations for a small hotshoe mic?

[hyalinejim]

I already have an omnidirectional Rode Videomic (below) but I'm looking for something smaller so that I can slip my camera with lens and mic still attached into a small camera bag when I'm out and about with the family, but still get decent audio.

[Michael S]

For such occasions I actually just use the built in microphone of my S5 with a self-made mini wind-muff stuck on it using double-sided tape. For capturing ambient sound it is good enough and not much worse than an external omnidirectional microphone. I'm actually always a bit surprised by the quality of the microphones Panasonic puts in their cameras. This has also been true for their camcorders. You may tweak the frequency response to taste in post. Using a fairly low recording level so the auto-limiter doesn't need to kick in also helps.

In my experience, when you want to capture some specific sound like someone talking to camera, having a directional microphone on top of the camera is not helping much due to poor placement of the microphone. But if someone else has positive experiences I'm curious to know as well.

[newfoundmass]

I'm still rocking the Rode Micro and am quite happy with it!

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm still rocking the Rode Micro and am quite happy with it!

Ditto.

Only difference to the standard set up is I swapped out the dead cat for a foam windshield instead.

Just as with the Rode Wireless Go, I don’t use the result from it as anything but a base line for my lav mics.

Actually, having said that, I do sometimes use the direct result from the Go if I have attached it to a speaking mic and it’s good enough, but it’s not meant for the best quality audio.

I do like the Micro though because it’s very small and you can never forget to charge it!

[IronFilm]

I'd of course want to suggest the Sanken CSM1 😉

But more seriously, I would suggest the Deity V Mic D4

https://deitymic.com/products/v-mic-d4/ 

[kye]

A few thoughts...

• The Rode Video Micro or V-Mic D4 Mini etc can be good options - watch comparison videos to get real-life examples of how they compare, especially their relative output levels (as you want to get the most signal out of the mic so you can turn down the internal preamps)
• The shock mounts are usually bulky and fragile, especially for putting into a camera bag, but I've seen alternative mountings (for example using adhesive velcro) but there might be a compact solution that fits into the hotshoe
• You should test the internal mics as they're often higher quality than you think
• People seem to think that the EQ of a microphone is what defines its quality - just listen to how people talk when comparing mics, but it's one of the easiest things to change in post so don't fall for that
• Be aware that AI can now clean-up audio sources to basically eliminate all the background noise and retain only the voice (Resolve now has this built-in)
• One thing you can't fix in post is directionality - early in my journey in video I recorded the kids riding go-karts around the track and while I was recording I thought the video would contain audio of their karts going around the track but when I got home I found it mostly contained the person sitting behind me in the stand talking about how her hairdresser had broken up with her boyfriend or whatever
• The dead-cat can be swapped for a trimmed down foam microphone cover designed for a large shotgun mics from eBay to create a much more slimline profile

Happy to elaborate on any of these so just ask 🙂  

[hyalinejim]

Thanks everybody for the helpful and informative replies!

One thing I've noticed over the last few years is that the best camera is the one you have with you. When I went through a phase of shooting film I loved hunting down and testing small cameras with good image quality (for compacts I used an Olympus XA for semi-auto, a Pentax Espio 80 for full auto and even an APS Canon IXUS 90 for ultra-tiny. For better image quality I used the hulking compact Canon Zoom XL and the beautiful SLR Minolta DYNAX 5 with 35-70 lens.

But for video, I've just been using my phone when out and about. It's fine, but I really just take little snippets. Whereas if I have a digital camera I will make a little movie that I can share with family, and the kids like to watch it on the TV.

My S5II with Sigma 18-50 lens in crop mode is a beautifully small setup: 150mm long by 150mm wide. I'd love to try to keep things compact while maximising sound quality.

I had shot one family video using the internal mic. Aside from the awful wind noise, I noticed that whenever I spoke from behind the camera, the levels were insanely high versus people talking at shooting distance. That's one point. So the next video I made I put my Rode omni on it and the sound was just lovely, to the extent that people who don't normally notice such things pointed it out. It had a much better balance between me and others in the world out there, (I wasn't using any limiters for this or for the video with the internal mic). And aside from that, the overall tone was lovely and it was stereo. That's another point.

However, it's a bitch to get it in and out of a camera bag! The most convenient solution in that regard would be to work on getting the internal mic audio up to scratch.

19 hours ago, Michael S said:

I actually just use the built in microphone of my S5 with a self-made mini wind-muff stuck on it using double-sided tape. For capturing ambient sound it is good enough and not much worse than an external omnidirectional microphone

Could you post a pic? And would anyone else have some good ideas of how to DIY a wind-muff for the internal mic? Like, maybe buy some foam or dead cat material and cut it up?

4 hours ago, kye said:

• You should test the internal mics as they're often higher quality than you think
• People seem to think that the EQ of a microphone is what defines its quality - just listen to how people talk when comparing mics, but it's one of the easiest things to change in post so don't fall for that

I'll have to do some side by side testing in a non-windy environment of the internal mic versus external to get a feel for how I might EQ the internal to sound better. I imagine it would be something like bringing up the low frequencies and then cutting the high. Any tips here would be appreciated!

The other option is to look at smaller external mics.

18 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Rode Micro

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Deity V Mic D4

I'm sure these give very good sound quality, but I'm not sure how I feel about a directional, mono mic. I think I prefer stereo for these travel/family occasions as the ambient soundscape is as interesting to me as the people/landscape. I think it gives you a better sense of being there.
 

[hyalinejim]

It looks like the Sennheiser MKE440 will give me the stereo sound I'm looking for. Before I pull the trigger on it, any advice for a smaller/cheaper stereo mic?

I had a go at EQ-ing the internal mic based on recording the same thing internally and with the Rode stereo mic. It's just not possible. The internal mic will always sound a bit crap even without wind noise. There are phasing issues that I can hear even before EQ-ing it.

[kye]

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

My S5II with Sigma 18-50 lens in crop mode is a beautifully small setup: 150mm long by 150mm wide. I'd love to try to keep things compact while maximising sound quality.

<snip>

I'll have to do some side by side testing in a non-windy environment of the internal mic versus external to get a feel for how I might EQ the internal to sound better. I imagine it would be something like bringing up the low frequencies and then cutting the high. Any tips here would be appreciated!

lol about an S5ii and 18-50 being a small setup, but it's all relative.  It certainly means you are less sensitive to the sizes of the small mics that people are talking about, so that's to your advantage.

In terms of EQ, it's really up to your preferences - you're not going to get an 'accurate' frequency response and you'd want one about the same amount as wanting 'accurate' colour science anyway.

Probably the general thoughts I'd have about EQ, and I'd be keen to hear @IronFilms thoughts here too, would be:

• You might want to tame any particular problems in the frequency response if they bother you when listening to the sound from it, although with any half-decent mic this is unlikely to be an issue.  If you can't hear any issues then you don't have any so don't worry.
• You can sort of think about EQ-ing the human voice in three areas: the lowest area is how much body there is to the voice (think about how men with deep voices who work in radio sound), the middle part which is the "normal" part of the voice we think about when thinking about most people's voices, and the higher parts which are the harsh sounds in 's', 't', and 'p' sounds (called 'sibilants').  In terms of these three areas, you basically EQ them so they're to your tastes.  There are as many areas across the frequency range you want, but those are the most basic. Just play with whatever EQ plugins or adjustments you have access to and work out what knobs sound like what.  Audio can get really technical but you don't need to know the tech to work out how to get a sound you like.
• Context matters when mixing the sound on a final video.  
  You might be adding music or ambient sounds to a video (and I'd encourage this - sound design is a big part of the experience of enjoying a film/video) and so the EQ of sounds or voices might be tweaked to ensure they can be clearly heard and understood in the final mix.  If you have music then it's normal to lower the volume of the music whenever anyone speaks (called 'ducking') but, for example, if you EQ the voices to have a bit more in the higher frequencies then they can 'cut' through the music a bit more and means you don't have to reduce the music volume as much.  An alternative is to EQ the music a bit, lowering the frequencies in the middle (where the human voice is) so that the voices don't have to compete against the music in those frequency ranges as much.  
• The best way to learn is to just play with it and trust your ears.  Unless you have a significant hearing impediment then just go with what you hear - there is no right and wrong.  Getting a second opinion on something can be useful too.

My audio workflow for my travel/home videos is this:

• Edit the video to a basic rough cut
• Work out what music I'm going to have (my videos are usually music-heavy and dialogue-light)
• Adjust final edit points to align to the timing of the music.  It's not about always cutting on the beat, it's about making them feel like they fit together..  but a cut on a beat drawers extra attention and can be a great way to emphasise a certain moment or shot in the video, so go with what feels right.  There's a school of thought that says you should edit to music even if you don't use it in the final project, just because it will give your footage an element of timing that is desirable.
• Mute the music tracks and mix the ambient sound / dialogue from the clips so it's broadly coherent.  This typically includes matching volumes of clips across edit points, if there are sudden changes in BG noise (like cutting from somewhere quiet to somewhere loud) or the nature of the ambient sounds then I'll crossfade just the audio to soften the transition, remove any audio issues like clicks or pops (or people talking in the background), etc.  This is where you might apply some EQ to individual clips or the whole audio track.
• I keep the ambient sound from all clips turned on, even if there's nothing there in-particular.  For some reason it's audible in a subconscious way even underneath music.  It makes the visuals feel more real and less disconnected.
• With the music still muted I'll add in more ambient sounds.  This is as simple, and cliche, as adding wave sounds and seagull sounds for clips at the beach, etc.  Obviously if there is already a ton of traffic noise on your captured audio then you don't need to add more, but you could try adding the sound of roadworks or other things you associate with the city too.  Unless you're crusading for absolute truth in the arts then this isn't a literal work, it's a creative and emotional work, so you can embellish it as you wish.  Ambient sounds increase the emotional impact of the visuals you have captured.  Make the video sound the way you want people to feel when they watch it.  There's a decent argument to be made for the idea that a home video should be true to the emotional experience of the events, not to the objective aspects of those events.  This is how I try to make my videos anyway.
• Then I un-mute the music, adjust levels on the tracks and review the whole mix adjusting anything that stands out as being wrong or too obvious etc.  
• It's a good idea to review the mix on some headphones as well as one or two sets of speakers just to ensure it's not optimised for one output device.

That process might seem really involved, but it can be as easy as putting some music on an additional track and listening through a couple of times stopping to tweak here or there.  I shoot with audio in mind now too, and will record music of buskers on location to use in the edit, or will record other ambient sources if I think they'll be useful.  Also to remember that shots that got cut in the editing process might have good audio that can be used.  I can recommend a source of free music if you're uploading to social media - even if you're publishing private/unlisted videos they still scan and apply copyright licenses etc.

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I'm sure these give very good sound quality, but I'm not sure how I feel about a directional, mono mic. I think I prefer stereo for these travel/family occasions as the ambient soundscape is as interesting to me as the people/landscape. I think it gives you a better sense of being there.

I find this to be true, although being able to hear your subject is paramount too.  Despite the ability to record in eleventy-billion-K resolution, the latest cameras are still mostly limited to two-channel recording, which I find to be stupid, as this means you have to choose between having stereo audio or having a safety track.

A Mid-Side (M+S) configuration allows you to adjust anywhere between a 180-degree stereo pickup and a mono directional mic using only two-channels, but the mics are rare and audio support is limited, and this doesn't solve the safety-track problem.  I've forgotten to adjust levels on a few occasions, and even with a safety track I've clipped the living daylights out of something, so it happens.

A camera that could record a mono mic plugged into the stereo input at two levels as well as recording the internal stereo mics would be a perfect solution and would cost little extra to manufacture.  But I'm guessing we'll get 2-channel cameras that can record twelvety-billion-K next, rather than addressing what is a pretty straight-forward requirement.

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

It looks like the Sennheiser MKE440 will give me the stereo sound I'm looking for. Before I pull the trigger on it, any advice for a smaller/cheaper stereo mic?

I had a go at EQ-ing the internal mic based on recording the same thing internally and with the Rode stereo mic. It's just not possible. The internal mic will always sound a bit crap even without wind noise. There are phasing issues that I can hear even before EQ-ing it.

The Sennheiser MKE440 is a compelling option, if you don't mind the size and price.  I've had thoughts of trying to run two Rode Video Micros in stereo with an adapter but I just never got around to it.  The MKE440 is probably your best bet, that I know of anyway.

[hyalinejim]

13 minutes ago, kye said:

if you don't mind the size and price

Ha ha! Yeah, those are the two sticking points as far as I'm concerned. I definitely think it'll be easier to get into a camera  bag than the Rode Videomic as it's about half the height. But not as easy as no mic! The price is another question. The Rode is free because I already own it. Do I want to spend a few hundred just to have nice sound on my family videos? I'm not sure yet.

[kye]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

Ha ha! Yeah, those are the two sticking points as far as I'm concerned. I definitely think it'll be easier to get into a camera  bag than the Rode Videomic as it's about half the height. But not as easy as no mic! The price is another question. The Rode is free because I already own it. Do I want to spend a few hundred just to have nice sound on my family videos? I'm not sure yet.

I'd say you should film a few test clips around the house with the options you already have and then see how audible they are when you put some music over the top.

The other option is to remove the mic from the hot-shoe when you put it into your bag, which will add a little to the time of taking it out and hitting record, but that might not be that much of a barrier depending on how you shoot.

[hyalinejim]

19 minutes ago, kye said:

when you put some music over the top

I'm not going to use any music for this. Music is all well and good for the corporate vids I do day in and day out but for my family vids I wanna be a bit more Dogme 95!

21 minutes ago, kye said:

The other option is to remove the mic from the hot-shoe when you put it into your bag, which will add a little to the time of taking it out and hitting record

It's a nuisance having to do that each time - sliding in the mic, tightening the dial, inserting the jack. I'd really like to be able to just draw it in and out of my bag when needed, turn it on and shoot. When it's hanging around my neck it's not even so much of a problem with the Rode.

It's also possible that it'll fit vertically into a holster bag with the Rode on.

[newfoundmass]

6 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I'm sure these give very good sound quality, but I'm not sure how I feel about a directional, mono mic. I think I prefer stereo for these travel/family occasions as the ambient soundscape is as interesting to me as the people/landscape. I think it gives you a better sense of being there.

The Sennheiser is probably better overall, but I use two Tascam TM-2X Stereo XY Condenser Microphones for my pro-wrestling work and I'm happy with them! Aside from the price, I like them because they're compact, which is a real plus when around a wrestling ring and filming through the ring ropes!

I've also used a Zoom H1 as a mic hotshoed to my camera before with good results!

[hyalinejim]

36 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Zoom H1

Now we're getting somewhere! It's only 32mm high, which is great! If I could find a low profile hot shoe mount for it I'd probably be in a very good position with this.

[MrSMW]

Something I have been meaning to try is the Rode Wireless Go on the camera. As in both units. Certainly won’t be a problem with drop out due to distance 😂

I have that set up for my next gig already to remind me to try it out in the real world. Should work…

Basically, I have the Smallrig half cage on the S5ii with the receiver hot shoe mounted and the mic unit next to it on a cold shoe mount.

Super compact set up for in and out of a bag plus it doesn’t look like a videographer set up for stealth purposes.

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

Now we're getting somewhere! It's only 32mm high, which is great! If I could find a low profile hot shoe mount for it I'd probably be in a very good position with this.

You should be able to find one for cheap! I stole that idea from @Mattias Burling when I was filming with the OG Pocket!

[hyalinejim]

9 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

for cheap!

Well, it's certainly a lot cheaper than the MKE440! And practical too, like I could use it for other things.

BUT! I've suddenly realised that because the tripod socket is in the middle, it will protrude probably around 4cm behind the viewfinder of the S5II. And I do sometimes like to shoot video through the viewfinder. It also makes it more awkward to get in and out of a camera bag.

If I could get it to sit forward a bit that would help.

[hyalinejim]

Or if I could find something like this (a Zoom mic for a phone) that would sit on a hot shoe somehow and get power somehow that would be a lovely compact solution.

[ntblowz]

Canon DM-E1 shotgun mic allows you to switch between mono and 90/120 degree stereo, uses 3.5mm input so any camera can work.

[hyalinejim]

9 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Canon DM-E1

Well, that certainly is interesting but it seems to be getting trashed in reviews. I found a vid by forum member @markr041 , maybe he can chime in with his experiences.