Any recommendations for a small hotshoe mic?

[ac6000cw]

For a height comparison, these are the three relatively small stereo mics I use, mounted on my Pana G9 (which is around the same size as an S5).

Tascam TM-2x (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, plug-in power). Overall the most flexible, with a switchable low-cut filter, two sensitivity settings and a shock mount that works.

Boya BY-PVM50 (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, uses LR44 battery). The 3.5mm jack is at the rear centre of the barrel, and the mic can be moved forward and back in the shock mount.

Boya BY-MM3 (omni capsule stereo, plug-in power). This is overall the smallest/lightest/least obtrusive, but as it's non-directional it's only really suitable for 'ambient sound' recording.

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

The Zoom H1 has the mounting point in the middle of it though, which makes it awkward to mount onto a camera hot shoe. 

Also the small/cheap recorders in general (I own several) don't make much attempt at isolating the mic capsules from the recorder body, so are terrible for handling noise (and pick up wind noise via body vibration, so you almost have to completely enclose them in a wind muff).

[hyalinejim]

12 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

height comparison

Thanks for this! The Tascam looks to be no higher than the Boya omni capsule. Do you have any comments on the sound quality of the Tascam?

 

[ac6000cw]

58 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Thanks for this! The Tascam looks to be no higher than the Boya omni capsule.

See below - from the left, BY-MM3 (without muff), TM-2x (side and front views) and BY-PVM50

58 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Do you have any comments on the sound quality of the Tascam?

Echoing what @newfoundmass said upthread, I think it sounds pretty decent (for a relatively low-cost, compact, stereo mic) and the camera viewfinder is still usable because it doesn't extend back much from the hotshoe. I think the capsules are the same as Tascam use on their low/mid-end handheld recorders. The bass end isn't subterranean, but it's fine with a bit of EQ, and I think it's generally smooth sounding but not super-detailed.

I can't compare it to a Rode Stereo Video Mic Pro (which I think is what is pictured in your first post?) as I've never owned one (it's too large for me to consider using on relatively small mirrorless cameras).

[hyalinejim]

Thanks! At the moment I'm ripping the soundtracks from YT comparison vids featuring the Tm-2X versus higher end mics and field recorders and seeing if I can EQ it a bit. It looks like it needs quite a big boost in the lower frequencies. I read a random comment that although it uses the same capsules as a Tascam field recorder, you're not necessarily getting the same sound as you would on that model because the TM-2X isn't backed up by the battery power and circuitry of the recorder.

25 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Rode Stereo Video Mic Pro (which I think is what is pictured in your first post?) as I've never owned one (it's too large for me

Yes, it's bulky! It just sits too goddamn high! But the sound is great.

[kye]

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Absolutely.

Also, it has a 10 second power on time, so I'd have to leave it on all day probably.

10s is positively glacial!  Wow.....

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

For a height comparison, these are the three relatively small stereo mics I use, mounted on my Pana G9 (which is around the same size as an S5).

Tascam TM-2x (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, plug-in power). Overall the most flexible, with a switchable low-cut filter, two sensitivity settings and a shock mount that works.

Boya BY-PVM50 (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, uses LR44 battery). The 3.5mm jack is at the rear centre of the barrel, and the mic can be moved forward and back in the shock mount.

Boya BY-MM3 (omni capsule stereo, plug-in power). This is overall the smallest/lightest/least obtrusive, but as it's non-directional it's only really suitable for 'ambient sound' recording.

Yeah, those are all so much more compact that the Rode VideoMic Pro....  that's what I ended up buying years ago and it works well but its size and shape are definitely behind those ones above.  It's nice to see that progress is being made.

47 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Thanks! At the moment I'm ripping the soundtracks from YT comparison vids featuring the Tm-2X versus higher end mics and field recorders and seeing if I can EQ it a bit. It looks like it needs quite a big boost in the lower frequencies. I read a random comment that although it uses the same capsules as a Tascam field recorder, you're not necessarily getting the same sound as you would on that model because the TM-2X isn't backed up by the battery power and circuitry of the recorder.

Yes, it's bulky! It just sits too goddamn high! But the sound is great.

The other thing to take into account is the shape of the chassis that they put the mic capsule in.  The more directional mics are more directional because the body is longer and all the holes along the sides all create an acoustic chamber where the sound from the sides gets cancelled out.  If not designed properly the chassis can give the capsule a funny sound, even with the same electronics...  acoustics are a very complicated topic!

[newfoundmass]

5 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

For a height comparison, these are the three relatively small stereo mics I use, mounted on my Pana G9 (which is around the same size as an S5).

Tascam TM-2x (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, plug-in power). Overall the most flexible, with a switchable low-cut filter, two sensitivity settings and a shock mount that works.

Boya BY-PVM50 (cardioid capsule X-Y stereo, uses LR44 battery). The 3.5mm jack is at the rear centre of the barrel, and the mic can be moved forward and back in the shock mount.

Boya BY-MM3 (omni capsule stereo, plug-in power). This is overall the smallest/lightest/least obtrusive, but as it's non-directional it's only really suitable for 'ambient sound' recording.

Posts like this are why I love this forum. Between all of us we have such a wide range of gear that there's a good chance someone has/has experience with something!

I do think, money (and quality!) wise, it was probably better to just buy a bigger bag haha but the Tascam is decent for something you can get for well under $100 used (often times in barely used condition.) I think I paid maybe $120 total for both of mine? I don't tweak them a ton, because honestly I'm just using them to get a decentish stereo sound of the crowd from multiple directions and they're going into an audio mix that has three other audio sources in addition to the two stereo ones. The built in mics just don't cut it, and shotgun mics don't provide any immersiveness (though are good to hear blows connecting.) I could most definitely set up a better system overall with all the gear I have, but I'm just one man, so I just do the best I can without driving myself too crazy!

[hyalinejim]

9 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Posts like this are why I love this forum.

Yes, it's incredibly helpful. Thank you @ac6000cw

[ac6000cw]

3 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I could most definitely set up a better system overall with all the gear I have, but I'm just one man, so I just do the best I can without driving myself too crazy!

I'm only an amateur, but I fully agree.

I my case I just don't want to carry lots of (or large) gear around and I mostly shoot handheld, so the mics I mentioned are (for me) a sensible compromise between sound quality and size.

[ac6000cw]

4 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Thanks! At the moment I'm ripping the soundtracks from YT comparison vids featuring the Tm-2X versus higher end mics and field recorders and seeing if I can EQ it a bit. It looks like it needs quite a big boost in the lower frequencies.

I've sent you a PM with a link to a video file of mine (just trimmed, no EQ or other processing and with plenty of bass) using a TM-2x, in case it might help. (I'm afraid it's 50 FPS though, as I'm firmly on that side of the FPS divide....😉 🙂)

[hyalinejim]

Just now, ac6000cw said:

a PM with a link to a video file

Thanks! I've downloaded it and had a look. It sounds good, but I gave it a big lift in the lower frequencies:

How do you find the wind noise with the included dead cat? From a few YT videos it seems to do an OK-but-not-great job. I'm wondering if there are other solutions that cut more wind.

[Kisaha]

I have the Sennheseir and I believe is the best all around dSLR solution. You can have beautiful stereo ambient sound if you go ultra wide, and if you go closer you can beautifully follow a nice 2 person's conversation, and with a wider lens, is alright to go closer. It has 2 mini shotgun mics! Stereo, but with a reach..just brilliant idea..

If I want more reach (for videocentric cameras) I go here

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1404643-REG/sanken_cs_m1_super_cardioid_short.html

Paired with this amazing masterpiece of "softie"

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/cosi-cs-m1-windshield-kit

This set is just amazingly brilliant and easily pro territory (and price).

I actually use it for drama on a boom pole and I just did a trailer for a very popular game show a few hours ago..

If I don't care at all, just the simplest of them all and the cheapest of them all. no battery, no much directionality, extremely small and light

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1183909-REG/rode_videomicro_compact_on_camera.html

[ac6000cw]

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

How do you find the wind noise with the included dead cat? From a few YT videos it seems to do an OK-but-not-great job.

Yes, it's 'OK-but-not-great'.

I use an old Rycote fur 'windjammer' (which I owned before I bought the TM-2x) over a foam windshield. The windjammer is large enough to cover most of the mic plus foam, not just the capsule part like the Tascam one does.

If you want to keep it small and it's not too windy, try using just a reasonably thick foam windshield (from memory, the included foam one is a bit thin).

[kye]

5 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

 I'm wondering if there are other solutions that cut more wind.

I'm also wondering this.

I plan on doing some tests to work out what the best solution is, but I haven't done it yet so can't speak to results.

I do think, however, that the dead cat style is likely hard to beat because it's sort of got two 'modes' - when there's no wind the fur is sticking up in random directions and letting sound in without much resistance, but when there's a gust of wind then it pushes the fur flat and that forms a barrier against letting the gusts of wind through.  

Unless something has that kind of behaviour then it's likely to block more sound when there's no wind and block the gusts of wind less when they happen.

However if you are looking for a smaller solution with good performance, I suspect that some sort of hybrid with multiple layers of different materials might be a good solution as the manufacturers are likely to have just gone with size rather than trying to engineer a more complex and higher-performing compact solution.

[Kisaha]

...also, this for built in mics.

https://rycote.com/microphone-windshield-shock-mount/micro-windjammers/

[IronFilm]

22 hours ago, kye said:

From a technical standpoint, audio is stunningly higher quality than video is (if that's your reference point).  It's uncompressed, 16bit (or more), and has over 44,000 samples per second.  In professional audio settings audio can get EQ'd again and again and again and no-one is fragile about it.

Nobody should ever ever be recording in that though! (unless recording direct to camera, which often max out at that)

24bit 48KHz is the default standard that everyone should be using. 

[kye]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Nobody should ever ever be recording in that though! (unless recording direct to camera, which often max out at that)

24bit 48KHz is the default standard that everyone should be using. 

People should be recording in whatever is the highest quality they can, absolutely.  My point was that it's at least 44k 16bit, which absolutely creams video!

17 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

...also, this for built in mics.

https://rycote.com/microphone-windshield-shock-mount/micro-windjammers/

These look ok, but my question on these things is how well do the adhesive pads work.  I've bought a cheap no-name brand variation of these and the back of the fabric was a loose mesh that was about the worst surface you could imagine to try and stick anything to with (what is essentially) sticky-tape, and I can't see anything about these being any different.  That loose weave is how all faux fur seems to be manufactured, and the images of these things seems to indicate they're no different?

Even their product page indicates that the 30 stickies only gives it 30 uses, rather than them being a robust solution.  If I bought these for my in-camera mics I don't want to have to re-install them every time I pick up the camera.

https://www.rycote.com.au/products/micro-windjammer-30-uses

I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

I'm wondering if multiple layers of a thinner material might be a better bet, if I alternated laters of fabric and adhesive tape.  I bought a roll of 3M double-sided tape so I could custom-cut the shape so it could have a large sticky area and hopefully keep things in place for more than one or two uses.

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

micro-windjammers

These look great! But the mics on the S5II are in an awkward spot, number 3 in this diagram:

It's a rectangular, rather than circular area and anything pasted there would block access to the hotshoe. There's a film maker in the UK who sells the MicroMuff Skinny on eBay and it's almost a perfect fit (would need a bit of trimming).But according to a Techradar review the velcro loses connectivity over time.

I tried sticking a lav windjammer over it just now, secured with a hair tie looped around the viewfinder and it works a treat. I was blowing right into it a point blank range and it sounds good. The lav windjammer (my one is from Rycote) is a big mass of material so probably offers better wind protection than the little stickies.

 

12 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I use an old Rycote fur 'windjammer' (which I owned before I bought the TM-2x) over a foam windshield.

And does this do the trick? I have an old dead cat from my Zoom H4n (5D Mark II days!) that worked well on that recorder and I can also squeeze it over the Rode VideoMic and it works fine.

Another idea that occurs to me is to use two lav dead cats as above - one on each capsule and then another big dead cat if necessary.

[ac6000cw]

2 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

And does this do the trick? I have an old dead cat from my Zoom H4n (5D Mark II days!) that worked well on that recorder and I can also squeeze it over the Rode VideoMic and it works fine.

Yes - this is an 'exploded' view of it all (the foam is a trimmed-down cheap vocal mic pop shield):

...and it all fitted on the TM-2x:

I've bought a few windmuffs from 'windcutuk' on Ebay over the years- they seem decently well made and work OK, and they do one for the TM-2x - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165305982845?hash=item267d011f7d:g:7wIAAOSwks5ghLpY

This is their windmuff on my Tascam DR-05 recorder:

 

[ac6000cw]

15 hours ago, kye said:

However if you are looking for a smaller solution with good performance, I suspect that some sort of hybrid with multiple layers of different materials might be a good solution

An inner foam layer with a 'furry' that fits over it works quite well e.g. below is what Boya supply with the BY-PVM50:

(In that case you have to put the foam inside the furry first, then slide the whole thing over the mic barrel - it's really hard to pull the furry over the foam when it's already on the barrel !)