Testing Dynamic Active Stabilization: Walking While Shooting in 4K 60p

[markr041]

No stabilization in post, no gimbal.

I need more practice, but this is promising.

No camera with IBIS can do this.

Yes, there is a crop. 

[kye]

7 hours ago, markr041 said:

No camera with IBIS can do this.

If you say so.

I've gotten shots that look almost that good from OIS alone.

[markr041]

6 hours ago, kye said:

If you say so.

I've gotten shots that look almost that good from OIS alone.

I don't "say so". I show. Less talk.

So, post your video demonstrating that you can walk and shoot without a gimbal on any other ILC camera using OIS alone (with no head blocking the scene like a YouTuber shill).

You did say "almost" as good. That does mean *less* good, right?

You don't have to post a video. But, it is really easy to make claims.

[hyalinejim]

It looks just about OK, I would say, depending on your needs. It looked good on my phone but not so much on a monitor. I don't think it will replace a gimbal for those who need it. I wouldn't do a real estate video, or a music video with it - not that I do either of these things, but that's incidental.

The perspective changes and yes you can shift the whole image digitally to make the scene appear a little bit more steady. But until AI can recreate the world in three dimensions and compensate for the camera's wavering point of view, which it's not doing here, then it will look a bit sketchy.

Obviously, the steadier you can keep the camera, the better. I was doing some family shots today and it seems to me that by flipping the screen out and supporting that gently with the fingertips of my left hand I was getting much steadier walking shots (this is with a very light lens).

[mercer]

If your hobby is travel videos, or walking around cities and taking test shots of people, and you want to add some movement to those videos, then it works for the random shot for a couple of feet.

There's definitely some correction occurring here, but it's almost smoothed out by the 60p.

It probably looks better slowed down on a 24p timeline, though. 

[markr041]

7 hours ago, mercer said:

If your hobby is travel videos, or walking around cities and taking test shots of people, and you want to add some movement to those videos, then it works for the random shot for a couple of feet.

There's definitely some correction occurring here, but it's almost smoothed out by the 60p.

It probably looks better slowed down on a 24p timeline, though. 

I agree that slowed down will help smooth, and 60p helps at normal motion (which is why 60p is preferred for capturing motion for non-fantasy use (movies)). I agree that DAS does not replace a gimbal for videos that entail constant movement (i.e., hack real estate use). Good for adding some motion to a video. But the sneering "couple of feet" is wrong, as is demonstrated. In any case long, moving shots are boring anyway. Better technique will make it even better.

 

 

[kye]

15 hours ago, markr041 said:

I don't "say so". I show. Less talk.

Please go ahead and "show" me that "No camera with IBIS can do this".

How will you show this?  By posting every clip ever shot with an IBIS camera?  What about the ones that were uploaded without providing camera model details?  What about the ones that were uploaded privately?  What about the clips that were shot but never uploaded at all?

How on earth can you "show" that your claim about IBIS cameras is correct?

Simple - you can't.

This is a claim that is impossible to make, impossible to test, impossible to even know.  Even if it is true now, it might not be true in 10 years time, so therefore it isn't true now because it will be invalidated in the future.

Let me be honest with you here.  You are receiving criticism here because you are talking outside of your knowledge, and criticising things that other people do.  

Had you said "Here, look at this footage, I think it's good" then no-one could criticise because that's your opinion.  Had you said that "I think it works well for the kind of things I shoot" then that's your opinion too.  Had you said "I think this would be useful for a number of other film-makers" then that's an opinion, but one that makes sense based on the fact that many other people shoot how you do.

But, you also say things that cannot ever be known, like "No camera with IBIS can do this".  

And, you also criticise the way that other people use their cameras, like "Seriously, guys. Overheating? Do you take long, boring takes from one position? That's what you shoot?".  

If you want to have a real discussion about cameras, then you need to follow these general principles:

1. Only speak definitively from your own perspective
2. Don't speak about things that you don't know about
3. Be open minded and humble about what you do and do not know

The way you're currently posting makes you look like someone who loves their camera and doesn't want to hear any criticisms about it and will argue with people to try and invalidate their criticisms.

If you want people to respect you, you have to know your own limits and stick within them.

15 hours ago, markr041 said:

So, post your video demonstrating that you can walk and shoot without a gimbal on any other ILC camera using OIS alone (with no head blocking the scene like a YouTuber shill).

You did say "almost" as good. That does mean *less* good, right?

You don't have to post a video. But, it is really easy to make claims.

It is easy to make claims, like "No camera with IBIS can do this" for example, but to show that those aren't the type of claims that I like to make, here's a clip I shot with OIS only.

This is the whole clip, SOOC.  I just dragged it from my footage folder into YT.

The Sony X3000 action camera has a super-wide angle lens (something like 15-17mm equivalent) that has OIS built in.  This clip was shot with the OIS enabled, but without the in-camera EIS enabled.  

It's not the most stable clip I have shot, but it's not too bad.  I also need more practice.  Things to take into account:

• I uploaded this clip because it didn't feature my friends and family and I don't post personal clips publicly
• This is a very wide angle lens and this submarine is actually a lot more cramped than it appears, and you can see that the floor isn't completely even or flat either, so I was walking carefully and trying not to bump into things (I'm also above 6' tall, so might have been ducking too - I can't remember)
• I definitely need more practice holding the camera steady
• The X3000 weighs practically nothing, the whole rig of camera + monitor + grip totals only 162g / 0.36lb so doesn't have the weight advantage of the Sony, which is probably 10-20 times heavier and has a much firmer grip than this (which you literally grip with one finger)

I really hope that you will consider my comments and try to change how you post.  There are lots of people online, and on camera forums especially, who are posting for ego reasons, or trying to push some kind of agenda, and this always generates a negative response and arguments rather than genuine discussion where everyone comes away better off.

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, kye said:

• Only speak definitively from your own perspective
• Don't speak about things that you don't know about
• Be open minded and humble about what you do and do not know

This is great advice.

[deezid]

Looks like an extra shaky GoPro to me? 🤷‍♂️

[markr041]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Please go ahead and "show" me that "No camera with IBIS can do this".

How will you show this?  By posting every clip ever shot with an IBIS camera?  What about the ones that were uploaded without providing camera model details?  What about the ones that were uploaded privately?  What about the clips that were shot but never uploaded at all?

How on earth can you "show" that your claim about IBIS cameras is correct?

Simple - you can't.

This is a claim that is impossible to make, impossible to test, impossible to even know.  Even if it is true now, it might not be true in 10 years time, so therefore it isn't true now because it will be invalidated in the future.

 

It is easy to make claims, like "No camera with IBIS can do this" for example, but to show that those aren't the type of claims that I like to make, here's a clip I shot with OIS only.

This is the whole clip, SOOC.  I just dragged it from my footage folder into YT.

The Sony X3000 action camera has a super-wide angle lens (something like 15-17mm equivalent) that has OIS built in.  This clip was shot with the OIS enabled, but without the in-camera EIS enabled.  

It's not the most stable clip I have shot, but it's not too bad.  I also need more practice.  Things to take into account:

• I uploaded this clip because it didn't feature my friends and family and I don't post personal clips publicly
• This is a very wide angle lens and this submarine is actually a lot more cramped than it appears, and you can see that the floor isn't completely even or flat either, so I was walking carefully and trying not to bump into things (I'm also above 6' tall, so might have been ducking too - I can't remember)
• I definitely need more practice holding the camera steady
• The X3000 weighs practically nothing, the whole rig of camera + monitor + grip totals only 162g / 0.36lb so doesn't have the weight advantage of the Sony, which is probably 10-20 times heavier and has a much firmer grip than this (which you literally grip with one finger)

I really hope that you will consider my comments and try to change how you post.  There are lots of people online, and on camera forums especially, who are posting for ego reasons, or trying to push some kind of agenda, and this always generates a negative response and arguments rather than genuine discussion where everyone comes away better off.

Thanks for the gratuitous advice. I guess you don't understand scientific method. And also need to loosen up when there is hyperbole. You way overreacte, and you should think why.

Here is what you do not understand: You can *disprove* my statement that no camera with IBIS can match the ZV E1 stabilization by simply uploading a moving-camera video using only IBIS that is just as good. Simple. That was exactly my challenge to you. And, after your rant, you did just that. Good! The Sony X3000 does indeed have IBIS and that camera-moving clip looks pretty good, but not as good as my ZV E1 video Nice try. I have used that camera too, and forgot about it. I of course was thinking about serious cameras that people generally discuss here. But, yes, with a tiny-enough sensor IBIS can work pretty well, as you show. The ZV E1 has a full-frame sensor.

Here is my gratuitous advice to you: no matter how annoying a post is to YOU, that does not give you license to provide personal criticism. There is no excuse for ugly posts no matter what. Stick to what you think you know about technical aspects of cameras (which I have learned from). And post more videos. One has to be very brave to post videos here, given the incredible defensiveness and arrogance and pretentiousness that sometimes pops up (the hate for 60 fps was amazing). 

 

 

[markr041]

10 minutes ago, deezid said:

Looks like an extra shaky GoPro to me? 🤷‍♂️

I agree that it is not as good as what the GoPro can do. That is the gold standard.

[kye]

26 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Thanks for the gratuitous advice. I guess you don't understand scientific method. And also need to loosen up when there is hyperbole. You way overreacte, and you should think why.

Here is what you do not understand: You can *disprove* my statement that no camera with IBIS can match the ZV E1 stabilization by simply uploading a moving-camera video using only IBIS that is just as good. Simple. That was exactly my challenge to you. And, after your rant, you did just that. Good! The Sony X3000 does indeed have IBIS and that camera-moving clip looks pretty good, but not as good as my ZV E1 video Nice try. I have used that camera too, and forgot about it. I of course was thinking about serious cameras that people generally discuss here. But, yes, with a tiny-enough sensor IBIS can work pretty well, as you show. The ZV E1 has a full-frame sensor.

Here is my gratuitous advice to you: no matter how annoying a post is to YOU, that does not give you license to provide personal criticism. There is no excuse for ugly posts no matter what. Stick to what you think you know about technical aspects of cameras (which I have learned from). And post more videos. One has to be very brave to post videos here, given the incredible defensiveness and arrogance and pretentiousness that sometimes pops up (the hate for 60 fps was amazing).

You have gotten OIS and IBIS confused.

[kye]

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

Thanks for the gratuitous advice. I guess you don't understand scientific method. And also need to loosen up when there is hyperbole. You way overreacte, and you should think why.

Here is what you do not understand: You can *disprove* my statement that no camera with IBIS can match the ZV E1 stabilization by simply uploading a moving-camera video using only IBIS that is just as good. Simple. That was exactly my challenge to you. And, after your rant, you did just that. Good! The Sony X3000 does indeed have IBIS and that camera-moving clip looks pretty good, but not as good as my ZV E1 video Nice try. I have used that camera too, and forgot about it. I of course was thinking about serious cameras that people generally discuss here. But, yes, with a tiny-enough sensor IBIS can work pretty well, as you show. The ZV E1 has a full-frame sensor.

Here is my gratuitous advice to you: no matter how annoying a post is to YOU, that does not give you license to provide personal criticism. There is no excuse for ugly posts no matter what. Stick to what you think you know about technical aspects of cameras (which I have learned from). And post more videos. One has to be very brave to post videos here, given the incredible defensiveness and arrogance and pretentiousness that sometimes pops up (the hate for 60 fps was amazing). 

Well, I'll be darned, I thought the X3000 was OIS only, but it's something else entirely, sort of an internal gimbal.

Ok.

So, you made a statement, I disagreed, you challenged me to back up my claim with evidence, I did, and now you move the goal posts by saying that the sensor is too small.

I've played this game before - it's what happens when someone is proven wrong and doesn't want to admit it.

How can we have a sensible discussion if you're not willing to admit it when you are wrong?  It seems like you only started this thread because the last one had too many criticisms of your pet camera.

[markr041]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Well, I'll be darned, I thought the X3000 was OIS only, but it's something else entirely, sort of an internal gimbal.

Ok.

So, you made a statement, I disagreed, you challenged me to back up my claim with evidence, I did, and now you move the goal posts by saying that the sensor is too small.

I've played this game before - it's what happens when someone is proven wrong and doesn't want to admit it.

How can we have a sensible discussion if you're not willing to admit it when you are wrong?  It seems like you only started this thread because the last one had too many criticisms of your pet camera.

So you accused me of not knowing the difference between OIS and IBIS. And now you see that the X3000 has IBIS. I am glad you admitted your mistake (the B&H page on this camera makes the same mistake). That you rushed to accuse me of ignorance reveals what you are about. You do not need to apologize. But, since you did not I will directly reply to your accusation.

Your fuzzy, shaky video does not refute the claim that any IBIS alone can beat what the ZV E1 can do. Your little video clip is shakier, with shakiness hidden by low resolution and underexposure. I appreciate your trying to refute, as I said. I did add that I forgot about this camera, which have used!, and that it is easier to stabilize with IBIS a small sensor, which is fact, not an evasion.

Now you are making statements about my motivations for posting a video. "pet" camera! All I did was to post a video demonstrating what the ZV E1 camera can do without a gimbal and added some enthusiastic hyperbole, which you are yet to refute, though, again, I appreciate you tried and actually posted a video.

You simply cannot stop making personal attacks. You want to examine your behavior, and your agenda. That is my gratuitous advice to you.

[markr041]

2 hours ago, kye said:

You have gotten OIS and IBIS confused.

No, the X3000 has IBIS - sensor stabilization. I assume you know the difference, you just are ignorant about the camera you actually own! Let me be clear: I have not gotten OIS and IBIS confused. I am glad you found out your mistake on your own after you posted your ignorant accusation. It is too bad you cannot on this site remove a post.

You need to refrain from posting when you do not know what you are talking about. 🙂 And you certainly should not accuse others of that sin given your behavior.

[hyalinejim]

I guess if grouchy people didn't post on this forum there would be fewer posts to read. So it's a good thing, really.

Carry on!

🥸

[markr041]

9 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

I guess if grouchy people didn't post on this forum there would be fewer posts to read. So it's a good thing, really.

Carry on!

🥸

I am glad you enjoyed the back and forth. 🙂 But I find it not so amusing, and have reached out personally to stop it, me included.

[kye]

11 hours ago, markr041 said:

No, the X3000 has IBIS - sensor stabilization. I assume you know the difference, you just are ignorant about the camera you actually own! Let me be clear: I have not gotten OIS and IBIS confused. I am glad you found out your mistake on your own after you posted your ignorant accusation. It is too bad you cannot on this site remove a post.

You need to refrain from posting when you do not know what you are talking about. 🙂 And you certainly should not accuse others of that sin given your behavior.

I'm definitely over arguing, but I though I'd close off this discussion of the stabilisation in the X3000 because I wasn't aware of how it worked and I think it's different to IBIS and to OIS.

It seems to rotate an assembly of the sensor and lens together, sort of like an internal gimbal.  I suspect this is functionally different to IBIS and OIS because in each of those they only shift one element of the lens, and the other elements remain fixed, potentially leading to distortions in the optical path.

 I suspect this is what causes the extreme corner wobble with extreme wide-angle lenses paired with IBIS.

Also different to IBIS is that is is only a 2-axis stabilisation system, yaw and pitch:

This lacks rotation, which has caused issues for me in the past - one example was when I was holding it out of the door of a helicopter and it was being buffeted by the winds and rotating the camera quite violently.  I never managed to find a stabilisation solution in post that compensated for the lens distortion, but I suspect that if I did I would have discovered that there was also rolling shutter issues in there as well because of the fast motion.

Anyway, it's mostly been replaced by my phone now, although I should compare the two and see what the relative quality of each is.  The wide-angle on my phone wasn't good enough for low-light recording unfortunately.

10 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I guess if grouchy people didn't post on this forum there would be fewer posts to read. So it's a good thing, really.

Carry on!

🥸

I just wish people would talk about film-making.

[Emanuel]

People should not attack whoever is. It's pointless.

[PannySVHS]

It is not easy for me to like a forum post when the nice parts are mixed with some akward personal call outs. Some of the assumptions about one and another sound like there is a desire for misunderstanding  eachother. Makes me leave the thread and topic behind. Certain advises and especially some so called advises are better off by being sent as private personal message. Some hassles can be light enterainment, but the border of becoming unbearable is close enough.