PSA - Please remember that the camera YT echo-chamber is just marketing, not the real world

[kye]

....and in todays episode of "the camera YT echo-chamber doesn't know shit about the real world", here's a real-world and very high-end studio shooting VFX background plates with a gazillion BGH1 units, or arrays of GH5S paired with 12-35mm f2.8 zooms.

Their website indicates they've worked on Joker, Stranger Things, Mission Impossible, and dozens of other high-end productions.

The thumbnail appears to show 17 BGH1 units:

One shot from the Stranger Things rig detailed on their website shows "our standard nine camera array" is 9 x GH5S units - 5 at the back (with two facing sideways) and 3 on the front:

To all those who suggest that the size/weight advantage from MFT is gone, their page says "The rig was still able to fly as luggage and efficiently attach to a rental car, all while being street legal."  How much does a 24-70mm F2.8 weigh again? If you can't remember then the short answer is more than double the MFT equivalent.  In the video he talks about how each BGH1 + lens is about 1lb, and keeping the weight down allows them to rig the car up in such a way that keeps them from needing increased permitting and things like escort cars (which for 360 cameras appear in the shot).

So, the GH5S (2018) and BGH1 (2020 - 3 years old), which aren't FF, don't shoot RAW, don't have IBIS, and have been completely forgotten by the entire camera YT echo-chamber, are being actively used on some of the biggest and most VFX heavy films being made in Hollywood.

They also just casually mention in the video (11:35 if you don't believe me) they've been involved in over 2000 productions, and that "these cameras are able to match perfectly with all your A-cameras".

[MrSMW]

Yes, but have they shot weddings?

[ntblowz]

4 hours ago, kye said:

So, the GH5S (2018) and BGH1 (2020 - 3 years old), which aren't FF, don't shoot RAW, don't have IBIS, and have been completely forgotten by the entire camera YT echo-chamber, are being actively used on some of the biggest and most VFX heavy films being made in Hollywood.

They also just casually mention in the video (11:35 if you don't believe me) they've been involved in over 2000 productions, and that "these cameras are able to match perfectly with all your A-cameras".

Simple, just ignore those echo chambers by not watching, obviously they are coming from a different background to the film/tv industry.

 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Simple, just ignore those echo chambers by not watching, obviously they are coming from a different background to the film/tv industry.

 

Yep, curate your feed as they say.

There is a lot of noise on all platforms but some great stuff also.

I’m not really into the ‘echo chamber’ reviews or rehashed content (never mind the clone background lighting styling and phrases used) but what they are peddling is probably closer to what I do over how they shot The Batman.

Just is.

It does annoy me a little how ‘forgotten’ the latest and greatest is after just a short period of time.

The GH5ii and the BGH1 make for great filmmaking kit.

[TomTheDP]

It is for acquiring plates though. DSLR's have been used for a while for crash cams or things like this. I remember the 5d was listed on the Avengers. Not really going to be ever seen as an A, B or even C cam on a major production. This isn't to discount the GH5 or any other camera just being realistic.

There are some good voices on youtube. Most channels are selling cameras though so of course they are not going to promote old stuff. Consumerism is definitely in full swing though and the filmmaker market is insane in this regard. There is a recent trend to do reviews of old cameras which is refreshing (maybe saying it is a trend is exaggerating it).

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

There is a recent trend to do reviews of old cameras which is refreshing (maybe saying it is a trend is exaggerating it).

There’s a place for anything. Most things anyway…

The herd though just look to their idols and then replicate it (or try to).

Look at Peter McKinnon, undoubtedly responsible for influencing thousands of ‘wannabe like Pete’ clones.

Some are quite good, but most are trash.

It’s that, “if I just do what he/she is doing, then I will be successful”, lack of any original thought that disappoints me with these folks. The blatant rip off lack of any originality.

But they rarely if ever are. Not unless they take that thing and elevate it.

It happened with a photographer I know. He was very well known in the industry and because he put himself out there for seminars and workshops etc, he grew a cult following and as good as he was…for his time, others came along who did it even better. The craft and the marketing of themselves.

The photographer has since drifted into obscurity because he couldn’t cope with no longer not being top dog, tried to reinvent himself and I think just tried too hard in the wrong direction.

No names because I don’t do that.

But Peter M just keeps on going because he keeps reinventing himself without moving too far from his oeuvre.

He’s the only one of that bunch I can stand actually and love or loathe him, he’s a pioneer.

Re. the old stuff reviews, there’s a fella called GXAce and he is off the wall nuts with his Bladerunneresque channel with exceptional productions not just visually, but in all areas. For a YouTube channel.

It’s that Seth Godin ‘Purple Cow’ philosophy, whether by accident or design, ie, being original (and ideally authentic) within a field of everyone else  not looking like you, but all like each other.

There’s a guy Mark Holtze who used to do it with lenses, but he’s gone off the boil recently. Maybe (other) work commitments I don’t know…

I discovered a South African guy about 2 weeks back called Jacques Crafford and although he uses modern gear, Sony, his channel is mostly ‘how to’ stuff with minimal fluff and doesn’t appear to be selling anything. 

There’s no, “use this light because it’s the best”…until the next ‘best’ light comes along. And then the next one. Or filter, or lens, or strap, ie, kit plays a part because of course it does, but it’s more about the process than the tools.

It’s not like he’s even selling courses so why spend what must be a huge amount of time and effort on giving this stuff away?

I don’t know but guess some people are just genuine and authentic so because he can?

Vu Nugyun is another one. Sony ‘fanboy’ but along with his hilarious politically incorrect alter ego, does not follow the herd, speaks his mind and isn’t really into the whole sponsorship thing.

The one thing they all have in common is they are not simply clones but as above, whether by accident or design, unique in their own space and that is something I have always subscribed to and strived for in my own space.

There’s nothing wrong with having folks whose work you aspire to but unless you are actually more talented than them, lift parts for sure, but copying wholesale just doesn’t work.

 

[kye]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

It is for acquiring plates though. DSLR's have been used for a while for crash cams or things like this. I remember the 5d was listed on the Avengers. Not really going to be ever seen as an A, B or even C cam on a major production. This isn't to discount the GH5 or any other camera just being realistic.

Absolutely.  Once you've managed to go through all the effort of hiring a team of people and hiring a good amount of lighting equipment etc, you're not going to quibble about the cost if hiring a dedicated cinema camera, that would be silly.

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

There are some good voices on youtube. Most channels are selling cameras though so of course they are not going to promote old stuff. Consumerism is definitely in full swing though and the filmmaker market is insane in this regard. 

Of course YT is dedicated to new shiny things, that's to be expected.

The reason I have some frustration here is that this attitude of OLD = CRAP is unfortunately very common on this forum, where (I would hope) no-one has a financial incentive to promote new cameras.

I'm talking both subtly as well as directly, not only are the older cameras given less attention, but I have been explicitly told by forum members to stop talking about the GH5, even though it was relevant to whatever brand new camera body we were discussing and I was presenting a balanced view of pros as well as cons.  It's one thing to criticise a camera, but to say that it's no longer relevant or even welcome in a discussion due to its age, that's a whole other level.

To tie this together, I absolutely agree that no-one is using a BGH1 or GH5S as an A/B/C camera on a major production, but the fact that they're used at all by anyone in that world should give pause to those who think that they're no longer fit for use in low budget / no budget / amateur settings.

I mean, I thought the entire premise of EOSHD was to use and make the most of affordable consumer cameras for video.

[kye]

21 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Simple, just ignore those echo chambers by not watching, obviously they are coming from a different background to the film/tv industry.

As I mentioned above, I don't really care if YT is like that, it's when it bleeds from there into this forum that it frustrates me.

Things have gotten so distorted now..  If I was to scan basically any thread and sort all the technical aspects into "good" and "bad" columns, and then present a bunch of sample images and have people sort those, we'd end up with a "good" column that described the images in the "bad" column, and a "bad" column that described the images in the "good" column.

[hyalinejim]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I have been explicitly told by forum members to stop talking about the GH5

Well now, that sucks. The GH5 was the first great consumer camera, in my view, and is not irrelevant today.

I moved from that to a GH6 and then S5ii within the last 12 months. Comparing GH5 to S5ii the only major differences for me are AF, 2 stops more in the highlights, and full frame versus 1.29x crop with Speedbooster. That's all. And my videos look basically the same as they did before.

[TomTheDP]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Absolutely.  Once you've managed to go through all the effort of hiring a team of people and hiring a good amount of lighting equipment etc, you're not going to quibble about the cost if hiring a dedicated cinema camera, that would be silly.

Of course YT is dedicated to new shiny things, that's to be expected.

The reason I have some frustration here is that this attitude of OLD = CRAP is unfortunately very common on this forum, where (I would hope) no-one has a financial incentive to promote new cameras.

I'm talking both subtly as well as directly, not only are the older cameras given less attention, but I have been explicitly told by forum members to stop talking about the GH5, even though it was relevant to whatever brand new camera body we were discussing and I was presenting a balanced view of pros as well as cons.  It's one thing to criticise a camera, but to say that it's no longer relevant or even welcome in a discussion due to its age, that's a whole other level.

To tie this together, I absolutely agree that no-one is using a BGH1 or GH5S as an A/B/C camera on a major production, but the fact that they're used at all by anyone in that world should give pause to those who think that they're no longer fit for use in low budget / no budget / amateur settings.

I mean, I thought the entire premise of EOSHD was to use and make the most of affordable consumer cameras for video.

I am kind of over the GH5 but it's certainly a capable camera. You can definitely get a worse image from a technically better camera, so much has to do with all the other factors that go into a production.

Some will say, myself included, that I just like geeking over camera tech and that it is a hobby. But how much is the interest being influenced by these companies. Are they dictating our interests through marketing? Are people capable of independent thought or are we all just following the arrows laid by these large corporations. It definitely sometimes feels like the latter. Content and the world seems to be less and less creative and more and more just a bunch of cheap and lifeless products paired with boring and lifeless people.

I am getting too pessimistic at this point. There is certainly still a ton of creativity in the world. It is just easier to talk about product releases I suppose as it is easy and doesn't really challenge the mind.
 

[kye]

8 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I am kind of over the GH5 but it's certainly a capable camera. You can definitely get a worse image from a technically better camera, so much has to do with all the other factors that go into a production.

Some will say, myself included, that I just like geeking over camera tech and that it is a hobby. But how much is the interest being influenced by these companies. Are they dictating our interests through marketing? Are people capable of independent thought or are we all just following the arrows laid by these large corporations. It definitely sometimes feels like the latter. Content and the world seems to be less and less creative and more and more just a bunch of cheap and lifeless products paired with boring and lifeless people.

I am getting too pessimistic at this point. There is certainly still a ton of creativity in the world. It is just easier to talk about product releases I suppose as it is easy and doesn't really challenge the mind.

I'm also kind of over the GH5, despite it being my 'best' camera!  On my last trip, which was to Korea, I ended up shooting much more with the GX85 and 14mm F2.5 pancake prime, just because it was smaller, faster, and less invasive, leading to the environment I was shooting being nicer, no-one talks about how the camera choice can make the subject look better!

I also love camera tech, but I wish it was going towards the images that people want, rather than just treating specifications like memes, but somehow people don't understand that the specs they want don't lead to the image they want.  It's easy to think that we're just hanging out and talking, but if you look around online this is one of the most in-depth places where cameras are discussed - most other places are one sentence or less - and so I would be surprised if we weren't influencing the market.  
I mean, can you imagine if instead of talking about megapixels, we were creating and posting stunning images, and every thread was full of enthusiastic discussions and great results?  It would have a ripple effect across much of the camera internet.

I'd go one step further than you - It's easier to talk about technical aspects than it is about creativity.  I've partly swapped to the GX85 because I realised that it creates an image superior to probably half or two thirds of commercially produced images being streamed right now.  The difference between me shooting with a GX85 and all content shot before 2020 that is still being watched is everything other than the camera.  There are shows on Netflix that aren't even in widescreen, they're that old, and yet the content is still of interest.

I had an ah-ha moment when I analysed the Tokyo episode of Parts Unknown (which won an award for editing) and saw the incredible array of techniques and then did the same analysis on some incredible travel YT videos and realised it was a comparison between a university graduate and a pre-schooler.  Compared to the pros, we all know very little, and it's hard to talk about that, so we just talk about cameras.  It's almost universal - it's almost impossible to get anyone online to talk about creativity regardless of what discipline is involved.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Compared to the pros, we all know very little, and it's hard to talk about that, so we just talk about cameras.

As the popular saying goes, “Amateurs focus on the tools, professionals work on the business and masters seek the light”.

It is largely true, but unless we are complete snobs, at all levels, we’re still interested in the tools. Most anyway…

I think this philosophy is misunderstood as in you don’t simply move from one of the above groups to the next, but move through one phase and accumulate another.

The reality is though that most cannot move beyond the ‘tools’ aspect which is the same in all industry and craft whilst those with sufficient talent (and often drive) will naturally add the other elements as they progress.

But ain’t nothing wrong with ‘masters’ discussing their tools 😉

The other thing about discussing tools/kit/cameras is that it’s more ‘fact’ based than subjective so easier to discuss such as 50mp vs 24mp or “maxes out at 6400 iso whilst X can go to 25600” and “camera B has shutter angle whereas camera A does not”.

It’s easier to ‘discuss’ than say the positioning and type of lighting in certain scenarios. More tangible as it were.

I’m personally interested in the kit, but only to a point. I’m not a big tech fan or one for change but at the same time appreciate the right tool for a job will make your life/work easier. And often, more enjoyable.

I’m much more interested in the ‘how’.

 

[kye]

50 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

As the popular saying goes, “Amateurs focus on the tools, professionals work on the business and masters seek the light”.

It is largely true, but unless we are complete snobs, at all levels, we’re still interested in the tools. Most anyway…

I think this philosophy is misunderstood as in you don’t simply move from one of the above groups to the next, but move through one phase and accumulate another.

The reality is though that most cannot move beyond the ‘tools’ aspect which is the same in all industry and craft whilst those with sufficient talent (and often drive) will naturally add the other elements as they progress.

But ain’t nothing wrong with ‘masters’ discussing their tools 😉

The other thing about discussing tools/kit/cameras is that it’s more ‘fact’ based than subjective so easier to discuss such as 50mp vs 24mp or “maxes out at 6400 iso whilst X can go to 25600” and “camera B has shutter angle whereas camera A does not”.

It’s easier to ‘discuss’ than say the positioning and type of lighting in certain scenarios. More tangible as it were.

I’m personally interested in the kit, but only to a point. I’m not a big tech fan or one for change but at the same time appreciate the right tool for a job will make your life/work easier. And often, more enjoyable.

I’m much more interested in the ‘how’.

I agree with you, but I would like to clarify that my problem isn't that we talk about the tools, it's that we ONLY talk about the tools.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I agree with you, but I would like to clarify that my problem isn't that we talk about the tools, it's that we ONLY talk about the tools.

I don't think it's a case of ONLY.

Biased towards the tools for sure as they are at the centre of what we do.

But otherwise, I agree with you and would like to see more 'craft' talk in principle.

I think it's also about how people use this place...

Is it a resource for info?

Is it a sounding board?

Is it an industry water cooler during your break?

For some it's one of the above. For others it's all.

For me personally it's the latter, the 'water cooler'.

I don't come here looking for advice or info, but am happy to provide it if I feel even a single person might benefit.

Am I going to start threads about craft or technique?

Probably not as I rarely start topics on anything, - more a participant than an orchestrator.

Any reason why?

Not much really other than there's generally more info from a platform such as YouTube and any research I do is so narrow, it would be of little to no interest here. As a topic in it's own right.

I think sometimes we over-think things or wish things to be things that they simply are not.

Plus stuff evolves, - social media, YouTube, forums...

I just take it what for it is, get my use out of it and at the same time, hopefully put something back...

[kye]

4 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I don't think it's a case of ONLY.

Biased towards the tools for sure as they are at the centre of what we do.

But otherwise, I agree with you and would like to see more 'craft' talk in principle.

I think it's also about how people use this place...

Is it a resource for info?

Is it a sounding board?

Is it an industry water cooler during your break?

For some it's one of the above. For others it's all.

For me personally it's the latter, the 'water cooler'.

I don't come here looking for advice or info, but am happy to provide it if I feel even a single person might benefit.

Am I going to start threads about craft or technique?

Probably not as I rarely start topics on anything, - more a participant than an orchestrator.

Any reason why?

Not much really other than there's generally more info from a platform such as YouTube and any research I do is so narrow, it would be of little to no interest here. As a topic in it's own right.

I think sometimes we over-think things or wish things to be things that they simply are not.

Plus stuff evolves, - social media, YouTube, forums...

I just take it what for it is, get my use out of it and at the same time, hopefully put something back...

I started lots of threads about the non-camera aspects of film-making.  Minimal engagement at best.

[Benjamin Hilton]

I think one side to this whole thing is the fact that for some of us we focus on the other aspects of the business all day long: business, pitching, writing, editing etc. Sometimes having a place to discuss cameras and lights and stuff is just plain fun and relaxing, somewhat pointless, but fun nonetheless. 

[Benjamin Hilton]

I shoot and edit professional content all day long. While I would love to upgrade to a Red Komodo, or Fx6 or something, I'm still using GH5s, G85s, an S1, etc because I can't really justify the costs of upgrading. It would be fun, but I know the films I'm working on would be much better off dropping that 10k into production instead of gear. 

I just shot an entire $50k doc on an S1 and Canon R6 and am totally happy with the final look. Realistically I think if I get a new camera in the next couple of years, it will be a FS7 or something. Solid image like the S1, just beautiful ergonomics for doc work. Every time I use one it just feels like driving a luxury car... Not necessarily a good business decision, but purely for the joy of use. Not so hard of on the wallet thankfully used these days too.

While upgrading gear is really fun, I think at the end of the day sticking with the same stuff for years on end is the best thing you can do for your image quality, especially if you are working with something decent (like anything made in the last five years)