Blackmagic to join L Mount alliance ?

[stephen]

In a discussion some time ago on this forum argued that Blackmagic camera development should go into :
    - full frame camera
    - a mirrorless mount and best candidate would be L Mount.

According to some rumors, it is exactly what is going to happen till end of 2023. I am happy with Panasonic and out of camera game for quite some time but still would be nice to see what Blackmagic has to offer. If rumors are true, L Mount alliance will be stronger and my investment in some L mount lenses seems like a longer lasting move. 🙂  

If Blackmagic wants to sell Full Frame L mount camera they have to offer some extra features over current generation of Lumix cameras. BRAW internal is obvious one. Maybe internal ND filters as extra bonus feature would be another one ?

https://www.l-rumors.com/soon-blackmagic-will-announce-their-first-l-mount-cine-camera/

[newfoundmass]

Out of all the mirrorless mounts it makes the most sense that they'd go with the L-mount due to its open nature. There aren't really many alternatives. 

[kye]

5 hours ago, stephen said:

In a discussion some time ago on this forum argued that Blackmagic camera development should go into :
    - full frame camera
    - a mirrorless mount and best candidate would be L Mount.

According to some rumors, it is exactly what is going to happen till end of 2023. I am happy with Panasonic and out of camera game for quite some time but still would be nice to see what Blackmagic has to offer. If rumors are true, L Mount alliance will be stronger and my investment in some L mount lenses seems like a longer lasting move. 🙂  

If Blackmagic wants to sell Full Frame L mount camera they have to offer some extra features over current generation of Lumix cameras. BRAW internal is obvious one. Maybe internal ND filters as extra bonus feature would be another one ?

https://www.l-rumors.com/soon-blackmagic-will-announce-their-first-l-mount-cine-camera/

Internal BRAW would be a big draw-card for L-mount folks.

I don't know how large the market would be for Panasonic L-mount users to get a BM camera though.  While such a move would of course get them internal BRAW, it would also sacrifice lots of things such as IBIS, AF, etc.  

It's easy to see that BM and Panasonic cameras are often similar in price, sensor size, resolution, etc, but the differences aren't just in specs, they really represent a fundamentally different approach to shooting - Panasonic make hybrid MILCs and BM make cinema cameras.  
To me, the GH5 and BMPCC4K are just as different from each other as the GX85 and OG BMPCC are from each other, which is to say they're a night-and-day difference in what I can shoot, how fast I can shoot, etc etc.

The answer to that would be to make the new BM FF camera a FF PDAF IBIS sensor, but that's not going to happen.  BM might implement PDAF but there's no way that they would put IBIS in there - they're too focused on the cinema market for such a thing.

It does make sense for them to realise a FF L-mount camera though.  But it'll be their flagship and will cost you!

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I don't know how large the market would be for Panasonic L-mount users to get a BM camera though.  While such a move would of course get them internal BRAW, it would also sacrifice lots of things such as IBIS, AF, etc.

For this one, not much. But that’s based on current spec so yes, that lack of IBIS and AF makes them a no no for me.

I like the image though but stuff like internal ND may come to an S1H successor. ‘May’ as in hope…

Probably some kind of internal raw also?

So that begs the question that existing L Mount users mostly would not be interested in a BM camera and existing BM users might be pissed off they have to change lens mount if they wish to purchase their next BM camera?

[mercer]

Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever. In a lot of ways, Blackmagic and Panasonic are each other's biggest competitor, so why would they want to share a lens mount?

It's not like there are a plethora of lenses in the L-Mount catalog to benefit BM and why would Panasonic want to give their L-Mount customers a reason to easily buy into BM cameras?

Unless Panasonic is purchasing BM's camera department. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, mercer said:

Unless Panasonic is purchasing BM's camera department

But what would they do with it other than strip it and even then, for what? Internal raw and ND's? I think they could already easily do and give us that if they wished.

I like the little fellas, the underdogs that punch above their weight, but it can be a struggle sometimes for them to survive, especially when it comes to tech which costs big money to develop and is often hard to protect.

I looked closely at BM and their 6k Pro and like Sigma's FP-L, they are 'almost but not enough' cameras to me as in just too compromised for my needs.

[kye]

I guess if I look at it from the perspective of BM then perhaps it makes slightly more sense.  BM has made cameras with S16 and MFT sensors and they used the MFT mount, and they made cameras with S35 sensors and used the EF mount.  Assuming they then wanted to make a FF camera, what mount would they choose?

• EF mount
  They have used it before, and their users already have lenses that use it, but the crop factor would change between the S35 and FF sensors, and the EF mount has pretty much been abandoned by Canon, so maybe BM want something that's still in active support
• RF mount
  Canon have been quite restrictive with third-party use of the mount, so maybe Canon is blocking BM from licensing it, or maybe it's prohibitively expensive, or maybe the flange distance is too little for things like internal NDs
• PL mount
  Seems like a logical choice with lots of existing lenses and support from other manufacturers, but maybe it's a step too far for their existing customer base, or maybe they want AF support (does PL support AF?)
• Nikon mounts
  Not a lot of cine lenses for Nikon I wouldn't have thought, focus direction is the other way to EF lenses, which might be troublesome to their existing customers
• Fujifilm X-mount
  No AF lenses available that cover FF and only 5 third-party lenses that do (on B&H)
• MFT mount
  Wouldn't cover FF sensor
• Sony
  A logical choice, but like Canon RF, Sony might not want to help BM compete with their cine-cameras so might be charging a lot for the license or might be refusing outright

From this perspective I think L-mount makes more sense, and sort-of aligns with their previous use of MFT and EF mounts, which were both "semi-open" systems with lots of existing glass from original and third-parties.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, kye said:

From this perspective I think L-mount makes more sense, and sort-of aligns with their previous use of MFT and EF mounts, which were both "semi-open" systems with lots of existing glass from original and third-partie

But there isn't a lot of glass from original and third parties. That's the problem. And since it's a mirrorless mount with a shorter flange distance than EF, the ability to implement internal NDs will be a bit more difficult. I suppose BM can get into the lens adapter business and produce adapters that have some kind of internal ND system.

[stephen]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I guess if I look at it from the perspective of BM then perhaps it makes slightly more sense.

Exactly ! If you are at Blackmagic and have to make a decision, which mount would you choose ?
Market pushes toward FF, this is clear. Company has to make a move in this direction if it wants to stay relevant.  L Mount seemed to me like a logical move,  Kye gave much more detailed argumentation that I had in my head 🙂 

Yes Blackmagic is competitor for Panasonic but so are Sony and Canon. Blackmagic carved a niche for themself. BMPCC 4K was selling well alongside GH5, GH6, GH5S and again as Kye rightfully noted:  " Panasonic make hybrid MILCs and BM make cinema cameras."  So they have slightly different niches.

I don't know, it just makes sense to me and wanted to share those rumors with all of you. Would be happy to see Blackmagic go in this direction.

[mercer]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

But what would they do with it other than strip it and even then, for what? Internal raw and ND's? I think they could already easily do and give us that if they wished.

I like the little fellas, the underdogs that punch above their weight, but it can be a struggle sometimes for them to survive, especially when it comes to tech which costs big money to develop and is often hard to protect.

I looked closely at BM and their 6k Pro and like Sigma's FP-L, they are 'almost but not enough' cameras to me as in just too compromised for my needs.

Although I think it's unlikely, Panasonic might want to purchase Blackmagic's camera division just for BRaw. Just as Red has patents on internal, compressed raw, I'm sure Canon and Blackmagic have patented their versions as well. I assume there are only so many ways you can compress an internal, raw image, and there may not be too much room left for Panasonic to develop their version. And since Panasonic's cinema division is in a dire need of an upgrade, purchasing Blackmagic's "pocket" ecosystem could make sense...

But again, I think it's unlikely. I'm gonna bet this is just a rumor. The link to the L-Mount Rumor website even looks suspect... or should I say the lack of info in the linked article.

I mean, why would Blackmagic want to share internal BRaw, their biggest, and only, feature with Panasonic, Sigma and Leica just for a lens mount?

This isn't 2013-2018 when Blackmagic had zero competition in the low end cinema camera market. A full frame camera will put them in direct competition with the R5, FX3, Z8, R3, Z9, FX6, and still have to worry about Red Komodo, Canon C70 and C300.

With that said, I assume BM wouldn't release a FF Pocket, more than likely it would be an updated Ursa, so that puts them in a different price bracket than any of Panasonic's current products.

[MrSMW]

1 minute ago, mercer said:

But again, I think it's unlikely. I'm gonna bet this is just a rumor. The link to the L-Mount Rumor website even looks suspect... or should I say the lack of info in the linked article.

That place has to be the most shit rumor site to have ever existed. It’s utter trash 😬

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

I mean, why would Blackmagic want to share internal BRaw, their biggest, and only, feature with Panasonic, Sigma and Leica just for a lens mount?

Because it might be the only viable full-frame mount available to them?

I’m quite intrigued by BRaw and as an existing L Mount user… 

[stephen]

15 minutes ago, mercer said:

I mean, why would Blackmagic want to share internal BRaw, their biggest, and only, feature

BRAW codec is already open standard.

Open Standard and Free to Download Cross platform and license free!

Why ? I have no idea, you have to ask Blackmagic how their business works 🙂

L mount 20mm Flange focal distance is not a lot but if you don't have to put a shutter there, and have a bigger camera body then maybe it would be enough to squeeze an ND filter. Sony proved already that it is possible. This is one of the ways for Blackmagic to differentiate from hybrid cameras. They already did it in a simplistic way in BMPCC 6K Pro. A more compact and sophisticated ND filter solution is maybe not out of reach for them. Tracking auto focus and IBIS, no, this would be Panasonic territory and too expensive for Blackmagic to achieve.

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, stephen said:

BRAW codec is already open standard.

Open Standard and Free to Download Cross platform and license free!

Why ? I have no idea, you have to ask Blackmagic how their business works 🙂

L mount 20mm Flange focal distance is not a lot but if you don't have to put a shutter there, and have a bigger camera body then maybe it would be enough to squeeze an ND filter. Sony proved already that it is possible. This is one of the ways for Blackmagic to differentiate from hybrid cameras. They already did it in a simplistic way in BMPCC 6K Pro. A more compact and sophisticated ND filter solution is maybe not out of reach for them. Tracking auto focus and IBIS, no, this would be Panasonic territory and too expensive for Blackmagic to achieve.

I believe BRaw is only open standard for software programs, not for use inside cameras. I think, if I'm remembering correctly.

But yes, at the end of the day, I'm just talking out of my ass... what do I know. I still think it was a bad idea for Canon to abandon EF when they went mirrorless. And then if they feel like they had to, I thought they should have revived the FD mount.

[kye]

12 hours ago, mercer said:

But there isn't a lot of glass from original and third parties. That's the problem. And since it's a mirrorless mount with a shorter flange distance than EF, the ability to implement internal NDs will be a bit more difficult. I suppose BM can get into the lens adapter business and produce adapters that have some kind of internal ND system.

A lack of glass is definitely a problem.  It would be a move that relied on there being more over time, that's for sure.

Re-thinking about it now, it would make more sense for them to make a camera with interchangeable mounts, and make ones for EF, PL, and whatever else they could make work.

As you said, it's unlikely to be a FF pocket, it would be a FF Ursa and I would think it would be their equivalent of the Alexa 65.  In cinema circles, S35 is regarded as standard and FF is regarded as "larger than standard" which is why ARRI called the Mini LF even though the sensor was basically FF.

I don't know how much a rumour like this would be true either.  If you spend any time on the BM forums, the number of rabid camera bros becomes obvious and every move that BM makes is answered with hundreds of comments asking for everything under the sun as the next upgrade.  I've seen people ask for the pocket cameras to get IBIS via a firmware upgrade!  So yeah, is there a rumour that BM will go FF with L-mount, probably.  Is there a rumour that BM will go FF with 17 stops of DR and IBIS and DPAF and a built in AI drone, probably!

12 hours ago, stephen said:

BRAW codec is already open standard.

Open Standard and Free to Download Cross platform and license free!

Why ? I have no idea, you have to ask Blackmagic how their business works 🙂

My understanding is that they want to create and control the full pipeline - to have a complete ecosystem.  

If you run a YT channel then you can easily do this, just but a P4K and use Resolve.  I don't know enough about running a TV studio but from the outside it looks like you could set one up using all BM equipment.  In all the BTS stuff I've seen for YT streamers it's normally the BM ATEM switchers they use to manage sharing their screen, one or more cameras, external sound, monitoring, and any graphics.  They have studio only cameras, etc.  They even have a film scanner!

From this perspective, getting more people to use BRAW the better.  Something you may not be aware of, Resolve supports almost all professional and broadcast codecs except Prores RAW.  So BM and Apple have extended the FCPX vs Resolve competition into having dedicated input formats.  This is another sign it's about ecosystems.

BM continue to support entry-level cameras like the P4K but are gradually extending up into the high-end cinema line with the UMP12K (and the just-released UMP12K OLPF).  The P4K is for making sure that people start with BM in film-school and the UMP12K OLPF is for making sure that your BM user-base doesn't jump ship when they get a big budget.

[Davide DB]

It doesn't seem to me that there are too few lenses to work with. but let's put it this way: the entry of BM into this alliance will act as a driver for the development of new lenses, especially cinema lenses.

https://lesdeuxpiedsdehors.com/en/lenses-for-l-mount/

I guess that BRAW is free only for post processing, not for camera internal implementation. BM pages refers only to sw and SDK. I should dig into the fine prints...

 

[Davide DB]

6 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I guess that BRAW is free only for post processing, not for camera internal implementation. BM pages refers only to sw and SDK. I should dig into the fine prints...

 

Reading this thread about the opportunity to have native BRAW recording on Z-Cam, confirm that is OS on post production only:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=171209

Anyway, They could make a deal like the one rumored between Canon and Red: you don't f**k with your Raw and I let you use my mount....

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:14 PM, newfoundmass said:

Out of all the mirrorless mounts it makes the most sense that they'd go with the L-mount due to its open nature. There aren't really many alternatives. 

I don't think that it is a open mount - in fact, only Panasonic, Leica and Sigma offers AF lenses to L-mount.

Sony have Sony, Sigma, Tamron, Viltrox, Samyang, Yongnuo with AF lenses.

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

I don't think that it is a open mount - in fact, only Panasonic, Leica and Sigma offers AF lenses to L-mount.

Sony have Sony, Sigma, Tamron, Viltrox, Samyang, Yongnuo with AF lenses.

By open mount I meant it's a mount that other camera manufacturers have been able to use on their cameras. The only other company that has let others do that is Canon through whatever deal they've made with RED. 

It would stand to reason that if BMD (or anyone, really) was going to go with a mirrorless mount for their cameras the most logical direction would be the L-mount, since it's the only mount that has been adopted by multiple companies. I suspect DJI will also be using the mount in some way since it joined the alliance.

I don't know of any company that has been allowed to use the e-mount on their cameras. It's also, technically speaking, not the best mount, so outside the lens selection I don't know that it'd hold a ton of appeal for other companies. Hasn't it been speculated that one of the reasons their IBIS is so poor is because of how small the mount is compared to the sensor?

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I suspect DJI will also be using the mount in some way since it joined the alliance.

They already are with the Ronin 4D that now can be had in L Mount but is limited to 5 Panny and 2 Sigma lenses.

Intriguing camera actually and surprised it’s not discussed more than it is…

[kye]

27 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

They already are with the Ronin 4D that now can be had in L Mount but is limited to 5 Panny and 2 Sigma lenses.

Intriguing camera actually and surprised it’s not discussed more than it is…

The industry is both cautiously innovative as well as hugely traditional and very slow to change.

What I mean by this is that if there is a new type of light source (e.g. LED) then the industry will take it's time to evaluate the technology, but then once it is understood in terms of strengths and weaknesses and impacts down the image pipeline etc, then it will adopt it.  Moving from film to digital acquisition was another example of this cautious innovation.

However, if there are any structural changes to how things are done, then they can take literally decades to be adopted.  It's been common practice for there to be a digital intermediary step in the image pipeline even before there was digital acquisition and digital distribution, and everyone knew that colour grading and compositing was a huge factor in the image, but it's not universal practice even now for the colourist to be involved in the decisions up front on choosing the camera package and LUT(s) used to view images on set etc, despite the image being completely reliant on the colourist being able to deliver the desired look.

This inertia is because it involves a change in how the team is structured - you have to involve someone from post-production in pre-production!!

The Ronin 4D is a less dramatic example of such a structural change.  If you use the 4D to shoot, then who operates the camera - is it the steadicam operator?  If that's the only camera then is the steadicam operator the DoP?  The number of films that were shot completely on steadicam is pretty low, so this isn't the normal practice.  Are there union implications?  It's a new lens system - is everyone familiar with the look?  Do they like it?  What availability is there in rental houses?  What test footage is available (important for those who haven't got the luxury for camera tests).

Its worth mentioning that DJI don't currently have a way to shoot with the 4D that isn't using the gimbal.  Not many people are willing to shoot their whole film on a gimbal and if you're already using a RED or Alexa there's not much advantage to the 4D over just using a Komodo-X or Alexa Mini on a gimbal.

It's easy for one-person operations to just see the whole process from start to finish as completely up for grabs, but the industry has been designed as a production line where each step of the process is done in a specific way and by a specific role requiring a specific skillset.  No-one wants to go first, no-one wants to take a risk, people have enough change happening within the current structure to deal with, so no-one wants to look at things that throws the current approach up into the air.