Blackmagic to join L Mount alliance ?

[stephen]

By the way there is a long thread on BM forums on the subject started in January this year. Last post from John Brawley explains in details why Blackmagic would not go or even cannot go with Sony E mount. Previous posts from him explain what L mount alliance is and how it differs from m43 one, why developing FF camera using EF mount doesn't make sense for BM, etc. He basically makes the same argument in details that L mount is the one that makes sense for BM. Worth reading for those who are interested:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173840&start=450

John Brawley of course is not BM but he has a good relationship with the company. I doubt he knows something from inside but his argumentation IMHO is solid

[stephen]

According to same John Brawley there is no licensing cost for any camera manufacturer to implement BRAW recording internally, it is not just for post processing. There is a cost however in development, to put all those algorithms in the processor chip. To my knowledge  processor chip development is quite costly. Companies are using one chip for all of their models and for several years in order to be able to pay for this development.

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

He basically makes the same argument in details that L mount is the one that makes sense for BM. Worth reading for those who are interested:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173840&start=450

John Brawley of course is not BM but he has a good relationship with the company. I doubt he knows something from inside but his argumentation IMHO is solid

Interesting thread indeed.

In the end L-mount is the most future  proof option for BM.

[IronFilm]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• They have used it before, and their users already have lenses that use it, but the crop factor would change between the S35 and FF sensors, and the EF mount has pretty much been abandoned by Canon, so maybe BM want something that's still in active support

EF mount kinda soft of ish arguably made sense for BMD in the past, due to EF's immense popularity. But to go with a DSLR mount over Mirrorless in late 2023 is very silly!

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• RF mount
  Canon have been quite restrictive with third-party use of the mount, so maybe Canon is blocking BM from licensing it, or maybe it's prohibitively expensive, or maybe the flange distance is too little for things like internal NDs

Yeah, Canon let RED do it, doubtful about letting BMD?? Hope they don't! Because of Canon's restrictions on third party lenses. 

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• PL mount
  Seems like a logical choice with lots of existing lenses and support from other manufacturers, but maybe it's a step too far for their existing customer base, or maybe they want AF support (does PL support AF?)

PL Mount doesn't make sense for the bulk of BMD's customers. 

However, they will absolutely offer a version in PL, or an adapter for PL. Because their PL customers are still very very important to BMD. 

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• Nikon mounts
  Not a lot of cine lenses for Nikon I wouldn't have thought, focus direction is the other way to EF lenses, which might be troublesome to their existing customers

Plus sadly Nikon in the filmmaking world doesn't have the same degree of brand recognition as it deserves. 

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• MFT mount
  Wouldn't cover FF sensor

But would cover S35. 

Where is my Pocket6K Pro MFT camera??? 😞

On 6/17/2023 at 11:08 PM, kye said:

• Sony
  A logical choice, but like Canon RF, Sony might not want to help BM compete with their cine-cameras so might be charging a lot for the license or might be refusing outright

Sony is a far bigger competitor to BMD than Panasonic is. And Sony hasn't been giving out their mount to camera manufacturers. 

 

 

  

2 hours ago, stephen said:

John Brawley of course is not BM but he has a good relationship with the company. I doubt he knows something from inside but his argumentation IMHO is solid

BMD would also give a lot of weight and consideration to anything John Brawley says, and would likely influence their decision making. 

[IronFilm]

8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yeah, Canon let RED do it, doubtful about letting BMD?? Hope they don't! Because of Canon's restrictions on third party lenses. 

From John Brawley:

"No. Canon, like Sony won't license their mount. It's an open secret that Red did an IP swap for the ability to use RF mount on some of their cameras and in exchange, Canon can make their own internal raw codec that can be used in-camera.

It's easy to test the theory. Name a single camera (not lens) with E mount that isn't made by Sony? Same for Canon with RF (excluding Red)?"

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173840&start=450#p956719 

[IronFilm]

Also from that thread, a nice mod of the Blackmagic Pocket:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173840&sid=d607770c079289f57c9615ae7e34fa1c&start=500#p957558 

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Its worth mentioning that DJI don't currently have a way to shoot with the 4D that isn't using the gimbal.  Not many people are willing to shoot their whole film on a gimbal and if you're already using a RED or Alexa there's not much advantage to the 4D over just using a Komodo-X or Alexa Mini on a gimbal.

I'm thinking more the sub-Hollywood level of productions. Like weddings. 

One of my 3 cameras is 'gimbal ready' and I shoot it 3 ways:

1. Handheld using the excellent IBIS.

2. On the gimbal for gimbal type stuff. (Very limited)

3. On the gimbal which itself has a quick release plate onto a tripod.

This 4D can do the latter 2 ways but is not ideal for the first as it's a bit overkill due to it's size and weight ie, is hardly discrete.

But perhaps with some kind of shoulder harness to take the weight, it could...

What intrigues me about it is not how it compares to an Arri or really any other cinema camera, but the fact that it has 4 axis stabilisation built in for those times when that is required, full frame 50/60p 6k sensor and built in ND's.

My interest is also as has been discussed in other threads, pulling high quality stills from video footage and ideally from full frame 6k or 8k.

It kind of ticks a ton of boxes in this regard providing there is no requirement to shoot actual stills from the same unit.

In combination with Sigma's excellent compact 28-70mm f2.8 (my workhorse) lens, for us video and smaller real world production types, this is actually a very interesting piece of kit.

I would still need something static for ceremonies and speeches and a second 4D in this role would be silly, but for the other 90% of the event, just shooting one camera and then pulling the stills, has massive appeal on a certain level. For me.

But horses for courses and all that and it's got sweet FA to do with Black Magic so I'll wind my neck back in 😉

[MrSMW]

Cube camera à la BS1H maybe?

Maybe even a collab with Lumix and they (Pannyboy)focus on hybrids such as the S series?

 

[kye]

The BM Camera forums are constantly talking about new cameras.  There was a thread that had hundreds of posts and went from March 2022 to April 2023 and the new mount thread simply replaced that thread as the current water cooler.

The entire premise of the old thread was that BM hadn't announced a new camera already.  https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=157059

It's pretty simple:

• If BM teases an announcement then people go wild speculating if it's a new camera 
• If BM teases a new camera then people go wild speculating what it will be
• If BM announces a new camera then people go wild speculating what features it will have
• If BM doesn't announce anything then people go wild speculating what is going on

[MrSMW]

They do have the coolest name for a camera though…

BLACK MAGIC

Just owning one must surely elevate you into the dark arts of video voodoo?

If I had one, I wouldn’t have had to have used a black sharpie on my LUMIX logos.

[Django]

This makes total sense.. L-mount is an alliance so adding a new partner only makes them stronger. 

BMD make cine cams with no AF, IBIS, h26x or photo specs. They are not a competitor to Leica, Panny or Sigma.

BMD finally goes FF which will open up their market. L-mount finally gives them a large sensor mount with adaptability.

EF lenses are easily adapted and well supported by L-mount so the transition would be easy for existing EF BMD users.

This seems like a win-win for everyone. I do hope they manage to keep the built-in ND system. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Django said:

This seems like a win-win for everyone. I do hope they manage to keep the built-in ND system. 

Or upgrade it to an eND like Sony have.

Do we know if Sony have a patent on those things, or are they an available option for other manufacturers?

I have a vague recollection of someone (maybe @BTM_Pix?) talking about RED doing some awesome experiments with an eND.  One example was to use it as a global shutter but to fade it up at the start of the exposure and down at the end so that motion trails had softer edges.  I think there were other things they did with it too, but that was the one that stuck in my mind.

[BTM_Pix]

31 minutes ago, kye said:

I have a vague recollection of someone (maybe @BTM_Pix?) talking about RED doing some awesome experiments with an eND.  One example was to use it as a global shutter but to fade it up at the start of the exposure and down at the end so that motion trails had softer edges.  I think there were other things they did with it too, but that was the one that stuck in my mind

RED made a product for the EPIC called the Motion Mount which does ND and global shutter emulation.

@Andrew Reid has one and it is fantastic.

[IronFilm]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:14 PM, Django said:

BMD finally goes FF which will open up their market. L-mount finally gives them a large sensor mount with adaptability.

Make it a locking mount though! 

Just like the E Mount on the Sony VENICE and FX9. Or as Z Cam has also done. 

[kye]

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Make it a locking mount though! 

Just like the E Mount on the Sony VENICE and FX9. Or as Z Cam has also done. 

Are the UMP mounts locking mounts?

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Are the UMP mounts locking mounts?

PL is of course. But their EF is not sadly. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1324258-REG/blackmagic_design_cineursamuprotef_ursa_mini_pro_ef.html?sts=pi 

[seanzzxx]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:14 AM, Django said:

This makes total sense.. L-mount is an alliance so adding a new partner only makes them stronger. 

BMD make cine cams with no AF, IBIS, h26x or photo specs. They are not a competitor to Leica, Panny or Sigma.

BMD finally goes FF which will open up their market. L-mount finally gives them a large sensor mount with adaptability.

EF lenses are easily adapted and well supported by L-mount so the transition would be easy for existing EF BMD users.

This seems like a win-win for everyone. I do hope they manage to keep the built-in ND system. 

I think one very important bonus of this alliance would be the fact that it gives Panasonic a very important missing piece in their ecosystem: a truly professional cinema/ENG camera with 12-bit, XLRs, docu-style body etc. If you're buying into an ecosystem for the first time Sony offers such a great upgrade path for starting one-man bands with the A7-IV, FX3, 6, 9, Venice. No matter what level you start at you can always upgrade while keeping your lenses. Same goes for Canon. Panasonic really misses that at the moment.

Panasonic currently offers some of the best hybrid camera's on the market and then after that there's nothing.

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

Panasonic really misses that at the moment.

Fujifilm X Mount and Nikon Z Mount have the same problem too 😕

[Django]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:03 AM, seanzzxx said:

I think one very important bonus of this alliance would be the fact that it gives Panasonic a very important missing piece in their ecosystem: a truly professional cinema/ENG camera with 12-bit, XLRs, docu-style body etc. If you're buying into an ecosystem for the first time Sony offers such a great upgrade path for starting one-man bands with the A7-IV, FX3, 6, 9, Venice. No matter what level you start at you can always upgrade while keeping your lenses. Same goes for Canon. Panasonic really misses that at the moment.

Panasonic currently offers some of the best hybrid camera's on the market and then after that there's nothing.

 

[seanzzxx]

Yeah which one of those has an L mount?