Please recomend me a câmera for cinema verite easyness

[tomastancredi]

Hey guys, 

I am looking for a cinema camera to shoot one man show documentary, which may envolve long days in the forest and with best battery possible. Low disk space is also important.

I’m thinking of c100, BMP6kpro, fx30, f5. 

I already have a eos R, will keep it mostly for stills and want a camera that’s facilitates my life. Shooting with the c100II with me nd filter, boom and sound working good was the best experience I had with a camera operating alone for a doc.  
I don’t know if there is a better solution now.

the problem is I would probably die with the c100 in case a buy it now and eventually do other kinds of work. I thought the c200 could be an alternative for using raw later and also not future proof  but I see it’s operability is not as good.  Ideally I would buy a c100 for less than 700 euros used, but I can buy pocket if I convince myself that is the best option. I also see a f5 for less than 2300 euros used. 
What would you recomend? 
thanks

[QuickHitRecord]

How about renting a Canon C70? If the sun is out, shooting in a forest can require a lot of dynamic range, and the C70 will deliver on that end. Also, it has long battery life and with a relatively small file sizes. Since you are working alone, the built-in NDs and dual pixel autofocus will make your life a lot easier and your "keeper" rate will be higher.

Of course, the C200 covers these bases too, but is either a bit soft (H264) or will require denoising (raw) in post.

I made a living with two C100s for five years, including several shoots in the forest. I loved that camera, but it didn't have the dynamic range necessary to capture pools of light as well as shadow detail in the woods. Of course, it's possible to work around it:

Otherwise, you might look at the FX30 or S5ii/x -- but I haven't used either of these cameras.

[tomastancredi]

5 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

How about renting a Canon C70?

Thank you! C70 would be a dream but a bit above my maximum budget at maximum 3k euros. I can buy a camera now that I am in europe for some weeks but I’ll shoot and live in Roraima, norther Brazil, Amazonia, border with Venezuela. So I wont be able to rent and will need for a long period. 

 

I am looking to find experiences with the fx30 but I find hard to think it is practical for one man band doc, compared to c100s..

[IronFilm]

Easy easy easy choice, get the Sony FX6.

Otherwise, if it is too expensive, then does AF or built in NDs matter more to you?

That's how you can choose between a FX30 or a FS7. (if the older sensor, and no 4K 10bit, doesn't matter to you, then you might even consider the FS5 instead of the FS7. Much smaller and lighter! I'd easily choose the FS5 over the C100. As while the C100 is a work horse, it is a bit of a one trick pony... only does the super basics, does it well, but still only does that and no more. While the FS5 is a swiss army knife packed full of many more features!) 

[IronFilm]

Panasonic EVA1 is worth a look too (or heck, even a Panasonic Varicam LT! They're crazy cheap, and clearly by far the best camera mentioned in this thread. But also, a bit too big and heavy for your purposes I think, even though it is a "LT"). 

The Panasonic EVA1 is basically the power of a F5 (or maxed out FS7) in a FS5 body, with arguably better colors too. Only downside, that EF mount 😕 

C70 is worth a look too, but at that price, just get a FX6 instead!

C200 is worthwhile if you don't mind basically "a 4K C100", so all the pros/con of a C100, but with 4K 8bit. 

Get the P6K Pro if you must buy new, can't go secondhand, and  you prefer the NDs over the AF of the FX30. 

[TomTheDP]

Pocket 6k pro with canon 24-70 for ois

Honestly below 3k there aren’t a ton of options. 
 

An S5/S1/S1H isn’t bad either. Zoom lens with vari ND. Decent battery life. 
 

GH6 with DZO 20-70 

 

[kye]

Sounds like you've got lots of options on the table, but I'd just caution you against getting wrapped up in specs and forgetting that durability and reliability are your primary concerns, as you're operating in harsh conditions for long periods and are a long way from support if something breaks.

I don't know how this translates into the various models being discussed, but I'd imagine it would point towards the professional-bodied cameras like the FS and FX lines.  Not only will they be built with the right build quality and cooling and temp and humidity and dust ratings, but having more durable hardware with things like integrated XLR connectors and such will also make the camera more robust.

Having cheap, light, small cameras with great image quality is great for careful consumers like me, but that's definitely not what you want in the jungle.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Sounds like you've got lots of options on the table, but I'd just caution you against getting wrapped up in specs and forgetting that durability and reliability are your primary concerns, as you're operating in harsh conditions for long periods and are a long way from support if something breaks.

I don't know how this translates into the various models being discussed, but I'd imagine it would point towards the professional-bodied cameras like the FS and FX lines.  Not only will they be built with the right build quality and cooling and temp and humidity and dust ratings, but having more durable hardware with things like integrated XLR connectors and such will also make the camera more robust.

Having cheap, light, small cameras with great image quality is great for careful consumers like me, but that's definitely not what you want in the jungle.

I fully agree with this. 

If you can't easily get warranty support, or rent a spare in an emergency then I'd stay away from Blackmagic (or Sony/Canon mirrorless). 

Go with Sony FX/FS series, or Panasonic S or GH series. 

I'd strongly lean towards FX30, S1H, S1H, S5mk2, or GH5S here, the more I think about it. 

[MrSMW]

S1H’s are becoming ever more affordable.

I just checked the current trade in on mine vs a new S5iix and it’s dropped about 600 euros in the last 3 months!

Very robust and capable though.

[fuzzynormal]

I'll chime in with a contrary opinion and a dark horse suggestion:  Weathered sealed OM (Olympus) cams/lenses shooting 4k 8-bit --probably considered sort of low-end these days, right?  OM cams definitely fly under the radar with videographers, but they have some useful features.

The color and images look dang nice straight out of the camera, the cams aren't big, you get really good IBIS, and the file data sizes are relatively small.  OM's target demo is pretty much nature shooters, so they build their gear for outdoor use. 

Be careful though.  The video image might not be as 'meaty' as you'd like it to be if you're used to other pro cameras or doing a bunch of drastic coloring in post. Still, the wife and I are currently doing a nature doc and we're happy with what we're getting. 

ND... Man, that is the shortcoming on all hybrid cams though.

[PannySVHS]

Awesome video! Exellent pro work and artistically beautiful direction and cinematography! Didn´t know you are such a heck of a filmmaker despite your love for CCD colors.:) C100 shining. Artistry shining. Loved it! Keep em coming, these gems! @QuickHitRecord What camera is your favorite one nowadays? Well, cameras, it is not fair to decide on just one, as there are many awesome cams out there, stored in our cabinets. 🙂 

For the money you mention I would get a used GH5 with Vlog installed or just use the free HLG profile instead and save the money for other kewl stuff. Or you could get a similarily compact Lumix S5, if you don´t need an external monitor and the extra cost compared to a GH5, which would give you exellent dynamic range and lowlight quality. Or a S1 with better EVF and monitor than the S5, suitable for easier manual focussing @tomastancredi

[ac6000cw]

14 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

I'll chime in with a contrary opinion and a dark horse suggestion:  Weathered sealed OM (Olympus) cams/lenses shooting 4k 8-bit --probably considered sort of low-end these days, right?  OM cams definitely fly under the radar with videographers, but they have some useful features.

The color and images look dang nice straight out of the camera, the cams aren't big, you get really good IBIS, and the file data sizes are relatively small.  OM's target demo is pretty much nature shooters, so they build their gear for outdoor use. 

Be careful though.  The video image might not be as 'meaty' as you'd like it to be if you're used to other pro cameras or doing a bunch of drastic coloring in post. Still, the wife and I are currently doing a nature doc and we're happy with what we're getting. 

ND... Man, that is the shortcoming on all hybrid cams though.

I'd agree with all of that, having gone from being a decade-long Panasonic user to now most often picking up an E-M1 iii when I take a camera out 🙂.

The video quality on the E-M1 iii isn't top-notch (although the 24p DCI 4k at nominally 237Mbs is pretty good), but as an all-round rugged 'outdoors' package it's great (as is the battery life). I normally use the 'Natural' profile with the sharpness set to minimum, contrast reduced and the shadows lifted/highlights reduced a little using the 'shadows & highlights' adjustment curves. The problem with the Flat and OM-Log400 profiles is that you lose the sharpness adjustment and I find the default sharpening too high for my taste.

(There seems to be plenty of used E-M1 iii and lenses like the 12-40 F2.8 around at good prices, if the budget is tight)

[John Matthews]

26 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I'd agree with all of that, having gone from being a decade-long Panasonic user to now most often picking up an E-M1 iii when I take a camera out 🙂.

The video quality on the E-M1 iii isn't top-notch (although the 24p DCI 4k at nominally 237Mbs is pretty good), but as an all-round rugged 'outdoors' package it's great (as is the battery life). I normally use the 'Natural' profile with the sharpness set to minimum, contrast reduced and the shadows lifted/highlights reduced a little using the 'shadows & highlights' adjustment curves. The problem with the Flat and OM-Log400 profiles is that you lose the sharpness adjustment and I find the default sharpening too high for my taste.

(There seems to be plenty of used E-M1 iii and lenses like the 12-40 F2.8 around at good prices, if the budget is tight)

For fun, I've been comparing the E-M1 ii to the GH6. Almost everything is better on the GH6, but the E-M1 ii has the edge in AF and maybe color in some instances. The DR on the GH6 in v-Log is insane though, albeit noisier than the E-M1 ii at base ISO (GH6 is at ISO 2000 with DR boost on). I'd also give IBIS a win for the GH6. I prefer the weight of the Olympus and it feels better with long lenses. If you're on a tight budget and want decent face detection PDAF with very decent IBIS, the Olympus is the way to go.

I hear people talk about the variable bitrate on the Olympus as unacceptable, but I'd just say it's super efficient (for the image you get); so, you're going to save tons on media too. When shooting the GH6 at its highest settings (1900mbps), it becomes an absolute pig, hogging up every last bit of space you thought you had within days, not even months.

The GH6, of course, roasts almost everything for slow motion at its price point; so there's that too. The Olympus is a detailed, nice color, stable, good AF, C4K, 24fps, one-trick pony.

[ac6000cw]

26 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

but the E-M1 ii has the edge in AF and maybe color in some instances.

Having owned a mk ii then a mk iii (both bought used), I think the better AF for video and adjustable-strength video IBIS on the iii are worth the extra money. There is also better separation of settings between stills and video on the iii. Video quality is the same in both, as far as I can tell.

And Olympus/OMDS certainly seem to know how to design and build pro-grade lenses and cameras - my (used) 12-40mm F2.8 Pro has paint worn away in places plus a damaged (but usable) filter thread, but works fine and has the smoothest zoom and focus rings I've ever used. I'm getting a bit tempted by the 12-100mm F4 Pro as a consequence...

[John Matthews]

55 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Having owned a mk ii then a mk iii (both bought used), I think the better AF for video and adjustable-strength video IBIS on the iii are worth the extra money. There is also better separation of settings between stills and video on the iii. Video quality is the same in both, as far as I can tell.

And Olympus/OMDS certainly seem to know how to design and build pro-grade lenses and cameras - my (used) 12-40mm F2.8 Pro has paint worn away in places plus a damaged (but usable) filter thread, but works fine and has the smoothest zoom and focus rings I've ever used. I'm getting a bit tempted by the 12-100mm F4 Pro as a consequence...

I've been told that about the mark iii and the E-M1x, both are very nice. I love Olympus Pro lenses. When they came out, I really thought it was the wrong direction for M43, but now I own many (12-40, 40-150, and 17mm f/1.2) and I find them so premium in every way. I'd also really like a 12-100, but just can't justify it as I've already have so many M43 lenses.

I'd like to see OMDS give us a few more tools and better slow motion. If they ever find a way to have internal NDs, it would be near perfect for me. For now, I've keep with the GH6.

[MrSMW]

10 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I'd like to see OMDS

The deal-breaker for me when considering a switch to an OM-1 based system for all my work was my concern whether they would even remain in existence as a company beyond this last ever ‘Olympus’ badged release.

However, I think if my priority was building as ‘micro’ a kit as possible, it would be based around using these bodies.

The GH6 is undoubtedly the better video camera.

The S5ii is the sweet spot for me with ‘equal’ IBIS and AF of the OM-1 and the video chops of the GH6 whilst offering full frame stills in a body barely bigger or heavier than either and if you are selective with your lens choices…

But out in the jungle, that OM-1 has a really high level of robustness and I really liked that 12-40 as an all purpose lens!

Such a capable, chunky but small combo that just felt right in the hands…but just not enough for my needs as an entire system. 

[John Matthews]

7 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

The deal-breaker for me when considering a switch to an OM-1 based system for all my work was my concern whether they would even remain in existence as a company beyond this last ever ‘Olympus’ badged release.

However, I think if my priority was building as ‘micro’ a kit as possible, it would be based around using these bodies.

The GH6 is undoubtedly the better video camera.

The S5ii is the sweet spot for me with ‘equal’ IBIS and AF of the OM-1 and the video chops of the GH6 whilst offering full frame stills in a body barely bigger or heavier than either and if you are selective with your lens choices…

But out in the jungle, that OM-1 has a really high level of robustness and I really liked that 12-40 as an all purpose lens!

Such a capable, chunky but small combo that just felt right in the hands…but just not enough for my needs as an entire system. 

Yes. I can understand that point of view. I don't have a business or ever expect I'll get paid for anything in photography of video.

Concerning companies, Panasonic could also pull the plug on all their camera business, M43 or FF. I doubt their market share is much great than OMDS. So could Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji or anyone else. The only company that is family owned is Sigma. That's just business. Massively successful cameras might be a thing of the past; in which case, the cameras that are great now will most likely be great in the future too. l'm still quite happy with results from a GH2, results that will never diminish unless it breaks; in which case, I have a second one too. 🙂 My GH2 saw hundreds of hours of recording video over the past year- it just won't die!

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Concerning companies, Panasonic could also pull the plug on all their camera business, M43 or FF.

Indeed, they could, and I had concerns last year, but especially over whether the next gen S5 had good AF.

I for one would have 100% ditched L Mount if they had not ‘fixed’ the issue both in reality and in the public eye, as though my requirement for good AF is minimal, for 5-10% of my work, it is essential and the non-PDAF approach was not reliable enough.

But they sorted it and I believe they are now experiencing greater sales.

OMDS though, no one really knows who they are. Well of course a tiny minority do, but there is literally zero history or provenance and people do tend to buy stuff they know the brand name of whether it’s as good, better or worse. Brand names sell.

I’m a big fan of the smaller independent companies though, the Sigma’s, the Black Magic’s and a future landscape with more of these and fewer giants would be welcome.

As a business, one of the decisions I need to keep in mind is the cost vs return and balancing the books as it were.

From a purely business POV, I would have near 100% faith in the more established players such as; Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji being around for at least the foreseeable future, but the future of Panasonic’s camera division may have hung in the balance over the success (or not) of the S5ii. I suspect it may just have saved them, but that is pure speculation on my part.

OMDS though… Bought the remnants of a once mighty camera company. Brought out a camera almost certainly designed by that former company, but my fear would be if they can no longer market that companies heritage, they have to stand on the merit of their own product. And no matter how good that product may be, if folks do not buy it in sufficient quantity because they have “never heard of it”, then it could spell disaster.

Bottom line for me would be a dead brand/product line with zero updates, that may very well last for the duration of said products lifespan, ie, until they break or wear out, but then might require replacement with an entirely new system including lenses and ancillaries etc.

There’s always some kind of risk/compromise however, so…

Sometimes I wish I was a millionaire or there was a rental company next door to my house so I could spec my best set up with all the brand options and shoot them back to back to then make a proper real world informed decision. But as I am not a millionaire and live in the rural French countryside, I can’t 🤣

[John Matthews]

56 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I for one would have 100% ditched L Mount if they had not ‘fixed’ the issue both in reality and in the public eye, as though my requirement for good AF is minimal, for 5-10% of my work, it is essential and the non-PDAF approach was not reliable enough.

I was in Point and Shoots, Four Thirds, Pentax, M43, Sony E-mount (FF), then back to M43. For the most part, Sony E-mount cost me the most and was the most limiting (but that was before it became popular). When I moved back to M43, I could afford lenses again and experiment. As long as M43 is around and the gap doesn't become too large with FF (can't really imagine what that means, but if it's DOF and lowlight, it's not enough), I sticking with M43.

If I were a pro, I'd own a GH6 and one or 2 S5 iix as it would make sense. The GH6 would give a something to walk around with and give excellent slow-mo capabilities. The S5 iix's at 6k and decent AF could be locked down. I think it would give some sweet results, albeit way overkill for the 99.9% of the views on social media.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

But as I am not a millionaire and live in the rural French countryside, I can’t 🤣

Je suis exactement dans la même situation !

[fuzzynormal]

11 hours ago, MrSMW said:

concern whether they would even remain in existence as a company beyond this last ever ‘Olympus’ badged release.

I've chosen to believe that it's Olympus' attempt to outflank the Japanese regulations.  --And that the off-spun OM business will eventually end up back under the "Olympus" umbrella one day when the political opportunity is viable.  (They've been known to pull corporate shenanigans)

Meanwhile OM are positioning themselves into a more niche market of outdoor photography enthusiasts, so maybe they'll be able to make a go of it there?  Hard to say with consumer imaging technology.  But, man, if they can make in-roads against Canon with all the 'birders' out there in the world, perhaps!  

I also like to think OM is a more nimble company that has a better chance of surviving because of this.  Wishful thinking?

Regardless, it's cool that their cameras are getting recognition from the folks here on this forum.

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

sticking with M43.

Same.  I hate large field packages.  Done enough of that in my life and whenever the gear bag gets too big I start to get frustrated.  There's a reason a GM1 with an Pentax Auto110 prime lens is my avatar!