Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Hi, i'm a canon user from several years now and i'm wandering something : do i have to switch to the A7s ? My questions are : - S-Log2 is as easy to grade as Raw DNG files from the 5DIII ? I mean : can i protect my highlights well as i can expose correctly my darker areas ? Do the zebras work well if i ETTR ? - Some say the A7s is 15 stops dynamic ranged ? Is it true or it is like ML on the 5D where i find the dynamic range is almost 12 stops and not more ... - The codec XAVC S is easy to grade ? It's only 8 bit... i'm used to take my DNGs in lightroom and push my levels as i want... is it as easy with the A7s files ? I mean i'm not used to grade files in Resolve or anything like this... - How much noise 3200 isos A7s files are when you push your darkly exposed areas ? Is it worth to quit my 5DIII ? And why ? I already know the A7s is a high iso killer and HDD space saver not like 5DIII Raw... I'm ready to sell my Canon. Please tell me the dynamic range worth it on the A7s over the 5DIII... I can't find really well done comparisons between the 2... that concern dynamic range. Thank you for your answers. Nicolas MAILLET. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 There's no way that 8-bit log material gives you comparable room for color grading as 14 Bit from 5D MkIII raw (which contains 64 times more information per pixel). Don't sell your camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 do i have to switch to the A7s ?You don't have to switch to any camera if you don't want to. - S-Log2 is as easy to grade as Raw DNG files from the 5DIII ? I mean : can i protect my highlights well as i can expose correctly my darker areas ? Do the zebras work well if i ETTR ?IMO, the hardest part about Slog2 is exposing it correctly without a LUT and/or false colour. Zebras work in Slog2 and you can set them to wherever you want (you could set them to show over-exposure if you wanted, so you know that as soon as you see a zebra you're overexposing).Slog2 is different to grade. - Some say the A7s is 15 stops dynamic ranged ? Is it true or it is like ML on the 5D where i find the dynamic range is almost 12 stops and not more ...If there's one thing the A7s has going for it, it's dynamic range. You can shoot raw all you want, you're still stuck with the camera's inherent dynamic range. The A7s has a lot of DR, as well as the ability to comfortably shoot at 800+ ISO.I would never have pushed any of my Canon DSLRs over about 400 ISO for video except in the most dire circumstances. - The codec XAVC S is easy to grade ? It's only 8 bit... i'm used to take my DNGs in lightroom and push my levels as i want... is it as easy with the A7s files ? I mean i'm not used to grade files in Resolve or anything like this...You can convert XAVC-S to ProRes or whatever you need (though not DNG). You don't necessarily need to learn Resolve if you don't want to, but I'm not sure how Lightroom plays with XAVC-S files. If you use an NLE or colouring software that have levels on them, then you can certainly adjust the levels. But again, it's different to grade. It's more than just pushing the levels a bit. - How much noise 3200 isos A7s files are when you push your darkly exposed areas ?The A7s isn't very noisy at all at 3200 ISO.http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6172http://www.lonelyspeck.com/sony-a7s-astrophotography-review/ (scroll down to ISO performance - though the above link shows the camera is not ISOless) Is it worth to quit my 5DIII ? And why ? I already know the A7s is a high iso killer and HDD space saver not like 5DIII Raw...That's a question only you can answer. Hire an A7s or borrow one from a friend and see how you like it. I did a lot of research before buying my A7s and selling my Canon SLR. The Sony rep I was liaising with suggested I take a 64GB SDXC card into a store and shoot some XAVC-S footage onto it and see for myself what it was like to work with as I was worried about the 8-bit recording.I'm used to Slog so was comfortable grading it. Try it out if you want. I made the switch. You might not want to. It totally depends on the work you do and what you like in a camera. Just make sure you don't let fanboys on either side sway you in either direction. Choose what's right for you. I'm ready to sell my Canon. Please tell me the dynamic range worth it on the A7s over the 5DIII... I can't find really well done comparisons between the 2... that concern dynamic range.http://***URL not allowed***/dynamic-range-sony-a7s-vs-arri-amira-canon-c300-5d-mark-iii-1dc-panasonic-gh4/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 No way ? Reading files been shot on the 5DIII is a pain in the ass and the crew doen't really like the way we have to work with this tool... In fact my bmpcc is smoother to work with. But of course it lacks shallow depth of field... A7s looks like it is easier to work with than the RAW video mode on the 5DIII no ? Is there such a deep difference in dynamic that i must not switch ? What i can see from some videos on vimeo or youtube is that fs700 or A7s with s-log2 don't look horrible at all even with the 8bit luma depth ... Does someone know any video that compares 5DIII raw video to the s-log2 ? The one andrew made with sunsets is well done but i'd like to see some extreme contrast scenes where highlights are extreme and dark areas really poorly exposed... For example some interior shots with windows... Raw video from 5DIII is good but the way to work with this camera is getting on my nerves as it is not designed to... Playing files to check focus is insane... 64 GB for 7 minutes... A step more to transcode .mlv to dng... Then files not readable directly on pc... I think the xavcs is readable right from the card no ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 DxOMark rates the A7s at 1.5 stops more dynamic range than the 5D Mark III. That's a lot, but maybe not dramatic enough a difference to trade in 14 bits for 8 bits. And when using the A7's full dynamic range of 13 stops and compressing it into 8 bits, you effectively only retain 0.6 bits luma information per f-stop and color channel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 DxOMark rates the A7s at 1.5 stops more dynamic range than the 5D Mark III.Er... based on what? And using what Picture Profile(s)?I could put the A7s into the 709 picture mode and then assert that the 5D has better dynamic range!14-bits does trump 8-bits. However, you'd be surprised how far you can push those 8-bits in XAVC-S. It really holds up much better than H.264 8-bit footage I've shot in the past.The OP doesn't sound like they're pushing their grades too far anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Based on raw stills, and sensor metrics (as DxO Mark always does). It's fair to assume that in video mode, the A7s will exploit its sensor's full dynamic range when you record in SLOG, and that the Canon 5D MKiii will exploit its sensor's full dynamic range when you record raw video. The point is not just how much you can push the footage. When you record 8bit SLOG with A7 and grade it into 8bit Rec709, you will end up (by mathematical laws) with less-than-8bit color in your final grade. (I'm not saying that the A7s is a bad camera, but only that going from 14bit raw to 8bit log will have its tradeoffs.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Let's draw a small comparison and make your decision based on how each point is important for "you" -They both have similar resolution/detail -The A7s has cleaner images above 3200/6400 -The A7s will output 4K to the Shogun (2K) -The A7s has 60p at 1080p (vs 720p) -The 5D has significantly better-richer colours at 14bit vs 8bit 4:2:0 and arguably a more pleasing colour science for skin. -The 5D has no compression artefacts so in terms of the image I believe the 5D raw has a better image, only at very high ISO the A7s will take the lead. Though the 5D raw is still an excellent lowlight monster. Non image-quality related points -The A7s has a great EVF -The A7s is lighter and smaller -The A7s can adapt to more lenses -The A7s has an articulating screen -The A7s has a s35 and s16 excellent crop modes -The A7s has MUCH smaller file sizes and easier workflow -The A7s is cheaper -The 5D has a longer battery life -The 5D is better built and stronger -The 5D shoots better stills at 22mp -The 5D has comptability with EF lenses, with full accurate autofocus in stills mode -The 5D has an optical VF. -The 5D shoots faster bursts and longer buffer -The 5D has dual media recording -The 5D has the nice ML features like customizable every single button, including a waveform monitor, false colour, raw zebras, rgb histogram, vectroscope, etc Both in the right hands can create pretty perfect results, but it's a bit easier with 5D vs the A7s with S-log. If I am comfortable with the Raw workflow I wouldn't make the switch. Especially if I don't "need" the EVF and/or shoot mostly above 6400 ISO. To my eyes the 5D produces better image quality. If I already own a 5D and comfortable with raw I wouldn't upgrade to any camera on the market right now until I can afford an FS7 or that sort of camera. I would personally go with A7s just because of the smaller files and because I don't need stills beyond the A7s capability, so it's different choices for different people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenpmd Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Great summary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 We use both the A7S and 5D3 RAW. If you want the best image quality, 14-bit 5D3 RAW wins, especially for skin tone color science and post gradeability. The A7S has a much faster and easier workflow. For our 10 minute Sci-Fi short, we used mostly the A7S with picture profile 6 (Cine 2 gamma, cinema color mode). We also used a tweaked picture profile 7 (Slog2 gamma, Pro color mode). We found that picture profile 6 produced the nicest skintones and was relatively easy to use (exposure, etc.). PP6 can be further tweaked to make skintones look better in varying lighting conditions (I'll post my results after more testing). Unless shooting outside in really high dynamic range situations (or with a very bright backlight), it's probably best to skip Slog2 and use one of the Cine gammas. If you also need high quality stills, especially if shooting mostly people (skintones), you'll want to keep the 5D3. If you don't need super low light, the GH4 is a much better all around video/stills camera vs. the A7S. We purchased native lenses for the GH4, which is an added expense, and unless using something like a Voigtlander F.95, shallow DOF isn't as easy with native lenses (a Speedbooster gets you to S35 level DOF, which is plenty for filmmaking). When traveling light with no controlled lighting and shooting mostly video, I use the A7S with the Sony SEL18200 lens (FS700 kit lens). maxotics 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 As someone who shoots with both, I'd say DON'T SELL YOUR 5D, especially if you are asking does the A7s grade easily! Don't be a victim to the hype. 5D RAW is the best image you can get from a DSLR at the moment. A7s has the BEST lowlight you can get at the moment. But the 5d RAW is actually second best in lowlight when using RAW so it's not far away. Really denoises well. Also the tools get better and better. I just re-debayered a bunch of 5d raw stuff that was shot a year ago as they got stripe correction in so the shadows are a lot cleaner now. You asked about grading? The A7s is not nearly as good in grading then the 5d raw. You will never push the files as well as you can a RAW image. Also s-log can be a biaatch to match colors around. A7s has great attributes. But it also has minuses. That is a considerably worse rolling shutter in fullframe mode. The dynamic range boost in S-LOG isn't as dramatic as you think as the dynamic range is mostly in the highlights. Shadows get noisy real fast. But it does give a beautiful high-end look, especially in bright sunlit areas. The cropmodes on the a7s are great though, excellent for shooting fast with one lens. I use the A7s for quick shootings and fast turnarounds, both 5d and a7s for all my personal and bigger projects. I may sell the A7s when a suitable A7s II arrives but I will never sell the 5d (never say never though). All of my best looking stuff has been shot with the 5d and I haven't gotten any really good looking stuff with the A7s yet but I think I might get someday. Also I am now very comfortable with the 5d raw workflow. If you do this for a living, think about the FS7. It really looks good, haven't used one though. If you don't, then just use what feels good and carry with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgv5 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Let's draw a small comparison and make your decision based on how each point is important for "you" -They both have similar resolution/detail -The A7s has cleaner images above 3200/6400 -The A7s will output 4K to the Shogun (2K) -The A7s has 60p at 1080p (vs 720p) -The 5D has significantly better-richer colours at 14bit vs 8bit 4:2:0 and arguably a more pleasing colour science for skin. -The 5D has no compression artefacts so in terms of the image I believe the 5D raw has a better image, only at very high ISO the A7s will take the lead. Though the 5D raw is still an excellent lowlight monster. Non image-quality related points -The A7s has a great EVF -The A7s is lighter and smaller -The A7s can adapt to more lenses -The A7s has an articulating screen -The A7s has a s35 and s16 excellent crop modes -The A7s has MUCH smaller file sizes and easier workflow -The A7s is cheaper -The 5D has a longer battery life -The 5D is better built and stronger -The 5D shoots better stills at 22mp -The 5D has comptability with EF lenses, with full accurate autofocus in stills mode -The 5D has an optical VF. -The 5D shoots faster bursts and longer buffer -The 5D has dual media recording -The 5D has the nice ML features like customizable every single button, including a waveform monitor, false colour, raw zebras, rgb histogram, vectroscope, etc Both in the right hands can create pretty perfect results, but it's a bit easier with 5D vs the A7s with S-log. If I am comfortable with the Raw workflow I wouldn't make the switch. Especially if I don't "need" the EVF and/or shoot mostly above 6400 ISO. To my eyes the 5D produces better image quality. If I already own a 5D and comfortable with raw I wouldn't upgrade to any camera on the market right now until I can afford an FS7 or that sort of camera. I would personally go with A7s just because of the smaller files and because I don't need stills beyond the A7s capability, so it's different choices for different people. Let's draw a small comparison and make your decision based on how each point is important for "you" -They both have similar resolution/detail -The A7s has cleaner images above 3200/6400 -The A7s will output 4K to the Shogun (2K) -The A7s has 60p at 1080p (vs 720p) -The 5D has significantly better-richer colours at 14bit vs 8bit 4:2:0 and arguably a more pleasing colour science for skin. -The 5D has no compression artefacts so in terms of the image I believe the 5D raw has a better image, only at very high ISO the A7s will take the lead. Though the 5D raw is still an excellent lowlight monster. Non image-quality related points -The A7s has a great EVF -The A7s is lighter and smaller -The A7s can adapt to more lenses -The A7s has an articulating screen -The A7s has a s35 and s16 excellent crop modes -The A7s has MUCH smaller file sizes and easier workflow -The A7s is cheaper -The 5D has a longer battery life -The 5D is better built and stronger -The 5D shoots better stills at 22mp -The 5D has comptability with EF lenses, with full accurate autofocus in stills mode -The 5D has an optical VF. -The 5D shoots faster bursts and longer buffer -The 5D has dual media recording -The 5D has the nice ML features like customizable every single button, including a waveform monitor, false colour, raw zebras, rgb histogram, vectroscope, etc Very good summary indeed, i would add also: The 5D has up to 38 fps raw at unstretched 1080p (recorded time is limited to couple of seconds though due to buffer and card speed) The 5D has up to 65 fps raw 1920x672 (nicely stretches to 1080p but also limited time) and gives better quality than 1080p h264 30 or 24/25p The 5D has 48 fps raw at 1920x508 (like above but with 2,35:1 aspect ratio) - can record almost continously Very nice new tools (much improved in last months) for on site checking and one click processing raw like MLVrawviewer (mlv to prores). The 5D has DUAL ISO raw recording option (stills and video, normal and crop), can record for example iso 100 (for highlights) and iso 1600 (for shadows) in the same time, there are some image issues like aliasing in over/under exposed areas (but no motion ghosting) but when needed it can give 14 stops of DR The 5D has HDR video (h264 and raw) - when shooting in 48 or 50 fps it alternates ISO values between frames, no aliasing but motion artifacts so mostly for static shots The 5D has auto ETTR (very useful for setting exposure fast) - it sets exposure to the right in one button click All of the features above are from Magic Lantern of course, not from canon. Cosimo murgolo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Ava Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 dont sell! i dont know what you are using the mark3 for but i have an unhappy experience to tell you about the sony A7s, a photographer & videographer went to shoot with it at a wedding and the couple complained to him that his equipment was not "proffesional" and they had a fight at the wedding because of the small size....! i know it sounds crazy the camera is great, but from a commercial standpoint you need the large DSLR too.. people are still backwards when it comes to equipment. try to save and have both br Cosimo murgolo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 a photographer & videographer went to shoot with it at a wedding and the couple complained to him that his equipment was not "proffesional" and they had a fight at the wedding because of the small size....!i know it sounds crazy the camera is great, but from a commercial standpoint you need the large DSLR too..people are still backwards when it comes to equipment.try to save and have bothbrThat's weird! A friend of mine works for a company who have developed two arms of the business - a high-end wedding photography and videography arm, and a high-end corporate client video arm.They bought about 4 A7s' and it's all they shoot on. Never had a complaint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volker Schmidt Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I don´ t want to annoy A7s users, but I really can´t stand the Colors Science of this Camera. It´s a nice build camera, with a lot of innovations and impressive resolution. But I have so far not found a single good-looking video (color-wise) on the Internet! Color-wise for me, the worst-looking camera "ever". For sure, that is a matter of taste. If you like the images, and 8bit, 4:2:0 is enough for your work, all is well and the A7s is a good choice! :) Resolutionwise, the camera is a stunner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 Hi, i make some commercials for brands in France. National TV channels for some videos. This camera is more to my personal videos, but sometimes i use 5D mark III for some professionnal videos, with all the accessories needed to be as comfortable as possible... What i've seen from the S-Log2 in the FS-700 and A7s is that S-Log 2 looks great, even with the A7s... which is 8 bit luma... What i want is to use Full frame format (the one i like much) or Super35 format like BMPC or FS700.... What i want is to have the best dynamic range as possible to give me the possibility to adjust what i want how i want. And what i want by now is also a camera that has a fantastic dynamic range but that does not eat hdds like candies... What i'd like to have too is a codec that is readable right onto the camera... RAW footage is not easily readable in the camera... Your answers are so great. That's true nobody can help me without i myself go and try it... but to hear the A7s has the same quality in grading as the 5D III is already a good thing... In some situations i really need to know if they are equal : High contrast between interior scene not lit at all and bright sunny exterior through a window... If A7s has the same performance but with a codec that saves space and is ready to play into the camera... i'd be sold !!!! Thx 4 your answers guys !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Color-wise for me, the worst-looking camera "ever".The worst looking camera ever??!!I can tell you with absolute certainty that the A7s looks better than DigiBeta cameras ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 In some situations i really need to know if they are equal : High contrast between interior scene not lit at all and bright sunny exterior through a window... If A7s has the same performance but with a codec that saves space and is ready to play into the camera... i'd be sold !!!!Have a look here: http://prolost.com/blog/2014/7/4/sony-a7s-days-1-2.htmlUnder 'The Pictures' heading. It's not a very scientific test, but shows what you can get out of the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volker Schmidt Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 The worst looking camera ever??!! I can tell you with absolute certainty that the A7s looks better than DigiBeta cameras ;) ...people sometimes tend to exaggeration, when they make a statement:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 The "wedding shit" pays for a lot of stuff. Cosimo murgolo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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