Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Isn't that great dynamic range i can see in that video ? For me i'm near from what i can get with my 5DIII Raw video... All this with only 8 bits of luma and 50mbits per second ? Maybe i'm crazy but it seems i'm saying goodbye to my 5DIII no ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrgl Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 It's a fantastic camera. But A7S colors are... unpleasant. Tends to have green, cyan and yellow casts. Makes skin tones appear cold and unnatural. They're also challenging to grade because you can't do it in a single node. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 That's true ML RAW video's got great colors and surely would be easier to grade than that 4:2:0 chroma depth... but for some personal projects i think this would be ok. What i want is a great dynamic with enough sharpness and iso rating... Rolling shutter it's bearable for me... That's the only con i can see right now that really deserves the camera... but 5DIII has it too... less i'm ok but it also has it... I've seen some great footage by night really stunning... great definition and not so much noise... This camera looks to be a great all around camera... Great dynamic, great low light performance, SD card, space saving next to 5DIII RAW... I think i'm sold... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtheory Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Why don't you rent/borrow A7S for a shoot and see if it fits? Don't make a decision based on theoretical research. My advice, - keep both 5D3 and A7S if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 It's a fantastic camera. But A7S colors are... unpleasant. Tends to have green, cyan and yellow casts. Makes skin tones appear cold and unnatural. They're also challenging to grade because you can't do it in a single node.Or, you actually need to grade properly, rather than put a single node on it, do a bit of a levels curve and call it a day. That's not really colour grading. Slog is a professional log gamma curve which needs a good grade. You don't hear anyone complaining that the Alexa is challenging to grade because you can't do it in a single node.I'll be doing some side by side tests with the GH4 and A7s for an upcoming project in a couple weeks. I'll be interested to see the difference.Personally, I find the colour out of any of the Blackmagic offerings much more unpleasant than what I get out of my A7s, and none of my skin tones have been green so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 I can't rent one as no shop around me has it... The only thing i can do is buy one on amazon and send it back if it does not fit my expectations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Or, you actually need to grade properly, rather than put a single node on it, do a bit of a levels curve and call it a day. That's not really colour grading. Slog is a professional log gamma curve which needs a good grade. You don't hear anyone complaining that the Alexa is challenging to grade because you can't do it in a single node. . Ah well, this is not an Alexa. This is a 2.5k consumer mirrorless camera. Different users and conpetely different end products. Users of the A7s don't have DITs and a high-end LA Post-production house with the world's most experienced colourists. If you replicate everything about the alexa for 2.5k consumer device, it would be horrible for 99% of the target users. It needs a massive power supply, it's 20 Kilograms of steel iron, it shoots enormous Arriraw files that require a data management person on set, it requires expensive PL lenses, requires extremely expensive tripods, rigs, stabilization. Just becasue the Alexa we all love has these issues doesn't make them non issues on consumer cameras. Plus the A7s S-log images are much harder to gradr than Alexa's C-Log. In fact, the alexa colours are the easiest grades I've ever worked with, even easier and better than the famously easy Canon and Nikons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 This one got me !!!! Look at the shadows in the 5DIII file... this is what i get if i don't overexpose by 1 or 2 stops... in the same conditions the A7s looks better IMO... What do you think guys ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxotics Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I'll be doing some side by side tests with the GH4 and A7s for an upcoming project in a couple weeks. I'll be interested to see the difference. Me too!!!! I'd also be interested in seeing the GH4 with best dynamic range pitted against straight h.264 out of the a7s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Me too!!!! I'd also be interested in seeing the GH4 with best dynamic range pitted against straight h.264 out of the a7s. That would be a cool thing if that GH4 had more DR than the a7s... cheaper option with 4K internal recorder... but not 35mm Full frame sensor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Ah well, this is not an Alexa. This is a 2.5k consumer mirrorless camera. Different users and conpetely different end products.Users of the A7s don't have DITs and a high-end LA Post-production house with the world's most experienced colourists. If you replicate everything about the alexa for 2.5k consumer device, it would be horrible for 99% of the target users. It needs a massive power supply, it's 20 Kilograms of steel iron, it shoots enormous Arriraw files that require a data management person on set, it requires expensive PL lenses, requires extremely expensive tripods, rigs, stabilization. Just becasue the Alexa we all love has these issues doesn't make them non issues on consumer cameras.You're right - this is a $2.5k consumer camera with a feature normally found in cameras worth around 10 times the price.The Slog is optional. You don't have to use it. If you can't grade it, don't shoot in it. I don't really understand why it's such an issue - there are 2 other profiles that are 'Cinema' profiles that are simply flatter, rather than full Slog. Shoot in those if you can't grade Slog!There are many productions that shoot REC709 on Alexa if they absolutely have no time to do a full grade. That's totally fine. If you also don't have the time or knowledge to grade log footage, I'm not sure why you would shoot it.I guess I just don't understand the argument of 'I have no idea how to expose Slog or grade it, and that makes it a useless and stupidly difficult feature!'Or is it just stupid and useless until Resolve introduces a one-touch 'make my shots look nice' button?Also, I see your point on the Alexa - though it's not made out of steel, and actually shoots ProRes unless you really want Arriraw. Also the body is 8kg, not 20 - though of course you could easily rig it out to be even heavier than 20kg.And I wouldn't necessarily call having a camera that needs the appropriate tripod and stabilisation equipment for the weight of it an 'issue' - I mean I don't think I'd call anything in your list an 'issue' but sure.My point is that everyone wanted log on a DSLR range/priced camera (look at all the people shooting Technicolour or similar 'flat' profiles). Now they have it and they're all complaining because it's too hard to grade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Hey come on guys we're just talking about 5DIII Raw video and a7s S-log2... not everything else... I do love Alexa you know... but it's too pricy for me !!! lol I'm just balanced between 2.5 k dollars... I find them to be really close in the final results if we don't speak about colors... Advantage to the Canon in this respect. I don't think i have problems to grade BMPCC ultra flat profile, therefore i think i wouldn't have so much problems to grade Slog2 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I don't think i have problems to grade BMPCC ultra flat profile, therefore i think i wouldn't have so much problems to grade Slog2 ?If you're happy with the results you get grading log footage from the BMPCC (or 'film' gamma mode as they call it), then I'm sure you'll be happy with the results from grading Slog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 You're right - this is a $2.5k consumer camera with a feature normally found in cameras worth around 10 times the price. The Slog is optional. You don't have to use it. If you can't grade it, don't shoot in it. I don't really understand why it's such an issue - there are 2 other profiles that are 'Cinema' profiles that are simply flatter, rather than full Slog. Shoot in those if you can't grade Slog! It's the camera's image and how hard it is to make a pretty picture Jax. The colours are just as hard to grade in other baked-in profiles, it's simply how the camera responds to colours and light. I am pretty sure that highly talented/experienced colourist would be able to pull pleasing images out of the A7s, but not me, and according to practically all the samples out there, they have the same issue, and it's definitely a problem with the camera if users can't easily get pleasing colours. It's not the Log gamma that's hard to grade actually it's easier than to grade baked in profiles, it's incredibly easy to grade Canon Log, Arri Log, Red Log, Blackmagic Log, and even S-log on every other Sony camera is very good. I've tried grading S-log skin from the F5 and FS700 and they look pretty darn good, it's that specfic A7s that I can't get good looking skin out of. People turn out grey, or yellow, or green or both or the entire scene goes red if I try to correct it using the colour wheels. An experienced colourist would Isolate the skin colours palate and tweak it accurately to get a pleasing look using a Vectroscope, which is certainly doable but not by me... Anyway I am looking forward to see a scientific colour test between the A7s and other cameras like the 5D and GH4. I would really love to see why exactly I hate the colours out of it so much, there must be something different, or I'll turn out to be seeing stuff in my head, actually I really hope it's the later because it's nearly my perfect camera but what's keeping me away is the colours I've seen from every other user. Either way I hope to find out seen. Please start a new thread on the A7s colours when the comparison is made. You should start with a simple skin tones test of the same person under constant light, S-log2 on the A7s and Cinelike D on the GH4, and other PPs extra would be great. Film a red object and see how both cameras see it, it's an important colour, and hopefully a scene in daylight containing green and a blue sky. Someone's face under daylight and in lowlight would be also great because from what I've seen the A7s looks much better in lowlight and pretty decent, but not in normal light, so I would like to confirm or dismiss that. If someone has the access to an A7s and a 5D/GH4 let's get to the bottom of this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas MAILLET Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 An idea with the green cast showed in slog2 : maybe the vnd filter used when you're 3200 isos in bright sunshine... My tiffen vnd filter tends to make my colors a bit greenish even if it is a good rated filter... I've found it in my bmpcc and 5dIII files where i have to take care of this little effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosimo murgolo Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosimo murgolo Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Tdove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 An idea with the green cast showed in slog2 : maybe the vnd filter used when you're 3200 isos in bright sunshine... My tiffen vnd filter tends to make my colors a bit greenish even if it is a good rated filter... I've found it in my bmpcc and 5dIII files where i have to take care of this little effect.Most ND filters exhibit a green cast, because of the way they're dyed. Only the most expensive ND filters are formulated to be completely colour free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Perhaps it's the ND filteration quality impairing the A7s colours? That would also explain why the colours look worse in daylight and better in lowlight as I said earlier interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax_rox Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Perhaps it's the ND filteration quality impairing the A7s colours? That would also explain why the colours look worse in daylight and better in lowlight as I said earlier interesting.Was at a Sony event a couple weeks ago and they were showing 4k A7s footage on a 4k TV, and it was stunning considering it's a $2.5k SLR-style camera.Colours looked pretty good, very F3-esque, and there definitely weren't the issue I've seen on some of the videos that have been discussed here.Will post the GH4 vs A7s stuff when we complete it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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