A6700 - FX30 sensor 👀

[newfoundmass]

57 minutes ago, barefoot_dp said:

Cool story.

What's your alternative?

I suppose when you're unable to make a genuine argument the easiest thing is to deflect.

My alternative? Not buying it.

[barefoot_dp]

22 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I suppose when you're unable to make a genuine argument the easiest thing is to deflect.

My alternative? Not buying it.

Why get so worked up about it then?

You clearly deflected the question as well; what other camera is there that offers 4K120 at that price? I can't think of any. Which means you're expecting Sony to solve a problem that nobody else has even attempted to (4K120p 10-bit in a very compact body at a very affordable price). The next cheapest (mirrorless) option I know of is the GH6, and to pull that off they had to have a smaller sensor, much larger body, and charge twice as much.

Looking at the videos so far it looks like overheating issues are limited to 4K120. So, if you ignore that mode entirely, you've still got a camera that is on par with the competition at that price, but with better AF. You just also have the option to occasionally get some shots at 4K120p.

And all this comes in a consumer photo camera. You can't be upset that a company won't blow their entire R'n'D budget trying to satisfy a few people who expect to be able to use it beyond what it is designed and advertised as (yet who won't buy it anyway).

[SRV1981]

My mind is a little blown about people upset about overheating/heat dissipation. 
 

im not an engineer - are you guys? Can someone explain why these companies put out cameras that can overheat? 
 

I’d assume that their customers mostly don’t shoot continuous for that long at 4k - especially when they sell cameras for that (fx30/fx3/c70/r5c). 
 

Seems like a great deal and we’re the winners.  You’re ant hybrid affordable?

 

xs20

r7

r8

a6700

im happy to stress over these choices 

[newfoundmass]

There's always an excuse. It's why companies will keep pumping out crippled cameras. If they had any ethics they'd set a recording limit and make it clear so people knew what to expect. But that's not good marketing, so the only way you know about the recording limitations is if you bought it yourself and found them or you watched YouTubers briefly go over them in their usually glowing reviews.

But hey! It's a bargain! 

[j_one]

4k60p record times seem decent for this kind of body considering past Sony track record. And to complain about overheating when recording 4k120p for long periods of time...I really cannot think of any common shooting scenario where one would need to be doing that reliably.

I also can understand the philosophy of urging manufacturers to sell cameras that just don't overheat at all. My older iPhone overheats and slows to a crawl in these record-breaking summer temps. I don't cut Apple slack for that so I guess its only fair to give my professional camera tools the same treatment.

Still though. Yeah, don't make excuses for engineers cutting corners in heat-dissipation (for whatever reasons they do it for), but also, SIR, really, why are you recording 4k120 for that long? 60p sure...

[JurijTurnsek]

Overheating is a big issue because you might be doing a set of 120p short takes (let say up to 30 seconds or so) and that heat won't dissipate quick enough. Same goes for 60p. You might be doing 5 minutes per clip only, but you might do them in quick succession and the heat isn't going anywhere.

This camera is a very disappointing release. Makes me wonder if Sony is truly unable to come up with something better or are they just trying to protect their FF and Cine lines.

[barefoot_dp]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

There's always an excuse. It's why companies will keep pumping out crippled cameras. If they had any ethics they'd set a recording limit and make it clear so people knew what to expect. But that's not good marketing, so the only way you know about the recording limitations is if you bought it yourself and found them or you watched YouTubers briefly go over them in their usually glowing reviews.

But hey! It's a bargain! 

Why do you assume it's intentional crippling? If it's such an easy barrier to overcome, why has no other company done it yet? Maybe it's actually just beyond the current engineering and technological limitations, or not financially viable - but they want to give us the option to use it in some form anyway. 

Intentional crippling would be if they took the FX30 sensor, put it in the a6700 body and then DIDN'T include 4K120p. Then the same people screaming bloody murder about overheating issues would jump on here and complain about Sony intentionally withholding capabilities that they know the sensor has. You just can't win with some people.

As for making the limitations clear - who do you think writes the brief for all those Youtubers? That's how they make the limitations clear in 2023.

It's not a camera that interests me at all - It's not at all a professional cinema camera, so it's not for me. If other people can't afford a better alternative, then they'll have to learn to compromise. But to write off a camera that is not intended for your desired uses, because it's not capable of doing something no other competing camera can, is a little silly.

[SRV1981]

13 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

ethics

Not sure it’s about ethics - at all. It’s profit. Want all day video? Buy an fx30/fx3/fx6. 
 

Want a hybrid ? Buy an a7iv/a6700/a7C 

5 years ago I’d be in shock to have these options and quality 

7 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

why has no other company done it yet?

This

in fact I’d be happy getting the a6700 for hybrid use and if demands dictate more - grab a used fx30 for long form video. Best AF in the game, best DR at price points, best log profile at price point, easy single lens mount with cheap 3rd party options. 
 

as a non-paid user of these products I’m very happy with this

[MrSMW]

I’m not really sure about some folks expectations here with this or many other camera releases.

It’s an ‘enthusiast’ camera with a few ‘pro’ bits but is not intended to be, priced as, or sold as a pro level or cine camera. So what’s the issue?!

The ZV Wotsit was probably a bit over-priced, but otherwise is another example of it is what it is, but isn’t a rival for a Red because it’s not intended to be.

 

[newfoundmass]

12 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

Overheating is a big issue because you might be doing a set of 120p short takes (let say up to 30 seconds or so) and that heat won't dissipate quick enough. Same goes for 60p. You might be doing 5 minutes per clip only, but you might do them in quick succession and the heat isn't going anywhere.

This camera is a very disappointing release. Makes me wonder if Sony is truly unable to come up with something better or are they just trying to protect their FF and Cine lines.

Agreed. Reliability, regardless of whether or not it's a pro camera, should be the top priority of every camera company.

9 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Why do you assume it's intentional crippling? If it's such an easy barrier to overcome, why has no other company done it yet?

Because not everyone is trying to undercut the competition at the expense of releasing a functional, stable camera. There is literally nothing stopping them from putting in a recording limit so it performs consistently, which they used to do it with their cameras before recording limits were removed. 

The Lumix S5 had a recording limit for 10-bit 4K 60p. They made that clear from the get go. They could've let it go until it overheated, but their intention was to provide a stable, predictable experience. They shouldn't be applauded for this though, because it SHOULD be what every company does.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

’m not really sure about some folks expectations here with this or many other camera releases.

It’s an ‘enthusiast’ camera with a few ‘pro’ bits but is not intended to be, priced as, or sold as a pro level or cine camera. So what’s the issue?!

Asking for a camera not to overheat shouldn't be a pro feature. A Dad deciding to buy this camera to take family pictures and maybe film their kid's play or recital should probably be given the simple courtesy of knowing it's limitations right on the box or in the product description, like they used to when recording limits were enforced, so he's not surprised mid-play to find the camera shut down because of overheating. They shouldn't have to watch a YouTube video where influencers briefly mention it in-between shilling it so you'll click on their affiliate link to find out that, hey, this camera might shut down after 20 minutes.

I find myself less passionate about the camera industry more and more every day, because while people's expectations re: specs are higher than ever, people's expectations for functionality and truth in advertising have never been lower. Like it's insane to me that I even have to explain to people why it's unacceptable to release a camera that overheats without explicitly informing the consumer (and no, burying it in the documentation doesn't count. Companies know most people don't read that stuff).

[FHDcrew]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I find myself less passionate about the camera industry more and more every day

Same here. 60% of the YouTube camera space has become a giant ad. 

[SRV1981]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

this camera might shut down after 20 minutes.

Is there evidence of this? Also curious what similar sizes apsc body cameras record 4k60 and how long until they overheat?

 

1 hour ago, FHDcrew said:

60% of the YouTube camera space has become a giant ad.

I’ll take it. I get free access to what cameras look like and do without having to read it online I can see it. 

[markr041]

16 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

Overheating is a big issue because you might be doing a set of 120p short takes (let say up to 30 seconds or so) and that heat won't dissipate quick enough. Same goes for 60p. You might be doing 5 minutes per clip only, but you might do them in quick succession and the heat isn't going anywhere.

 

So, you don't know what the limits are? You suggest a shooting scenario that is reasonable, but then you  just assume the worst. and then complain about it, as if it were true!

I shot this 4K 120p video with the Sony ZV E1, which has the same "overheating" issue (no fan, compact body) and the same codecs as the a6700 (different sensor) but like the a6700 in 120p 4K, there is no oversampling.

Shot all clips in 4K 120p, successive clips averaging 10 seconds (obviously trimmed in post) in an hours worth of shooting in 80+ temperature. Just like your scenario. Never got a warning. Camera was always on, no long intervals between shots.

Now, I would not recommend the a6700 or the ZV E1 if you do not want to think about overheating, given you can get the same quality (fx3 or fx30), at greater expense and bulk, without overheating.

But given the above scenarios, the chance of overheating is small. But, why be limited to those scenarios? Why worry? Move on. There are options.

It is too bad you cannot yet have big sensors, high bitrates, high resolution, high frame frame rates from a tiny camera with no fan and not have heat issues.

I am not a Sony fan, apologist, influencer or paid shill.

Right now, I like the Nikon Z8 and RAW video, even for 4K 120p. And, it can overheat too, but has not so far for me with plenty of 8K 60P RAW shooting (not long interviews of course, but who needs a static 8K 60P interview video?). And that camera has an alternative also with the exact same quality that does not overheat; and, again, at greater cost and with increased bulk (Z9). Your choice.

 

[SRV1981]

48 minutes ago, markr041 said:

It is too bad you cannot yet have big sensors, high bitrates, high resolution, high frame frame rates from a tiny camera with no fan and not have heat issues.

Agree 100%. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

Same here. 60% of the YouTube camera space has become a giant ad. 

I think you might be low-balling your estimate...  

[barefoot_dp]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The Lumix S5 had a recording limit for 10-bit 4K 60p. They made that clear from the get go. They could've let it go until it overheated, but their intention was to provide a stable, predictable experience.

If that works for Panasonic, then good on them. But the last company that did that got lambasted by just about everyone, with the common complaint being "They should just let us record until it overheats instead of artificially limiting it".

 I also think it's a bit laughable that you applaud Panasonic for releasing a camera with a limited 4K60p mode, in the same breath as critcising a camera that has a perfectly functioning 4K60p mode (according to reports so far). Seems like favouritism to me.
 

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

A Dad deciding to buy this camera to take family pictures and maybe film their kid's play or recital should probably be given the simple courtesy of knowing it's limitations right on the box or in the product description, like they used to when recording limits were enforced, so he's not surprised mid-play to find the camera shut down because of overheating.

If someone tries to record a whole school play at 4K120p, that is user error.

[FHDcrew]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I think you might be low-balling your estimate...  

Ok...99.87%

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

If someone tries to record a whole school play at 4K120p, that is user error.

Yes, they are painful enough as they are (bless ‘em) but to watch it back in ultra slow motion…to the point where the camera overheated and died just before little Jonnies only line, would be terrible.

[ND64]

They use the simplest algorithm for debayering and simplest algorithm for downscaling and simplest algorithm for noise reduction and low compression codec in video mode, inside a big metal body, and yet overheats. My smartphone uses a ton of complicated algorithms to extract a good looking image from a tiny noisy sensor, and compresse it to hell, and does it at 4k60p, in the most restrictive housing possible, and rarely overheats. Look what Asus is doing in thermal management for their gaming phones. Look at the power draw chart of new Samsung OLED displays these days and compare to your camera LCD. Do a speed test of a "midrange" phone's wifi chip and compare that to your camera wifi "solution". 

Camera makers are still using a decade old tech in "new" cameras, and we're supposed to be excited to have 4k120 in crop mode of a crop sensor. 

[Django]

+4K60p in h26x 10-bit 422 will overheat on any large sensor mirrorless without active cooling. 

So if you need unlimited recording in those settings just spend the extra $400 and get the FX30 with built-in fan etc.

That said the thermals don't seem that bad, GU got +2h in 4K30p and 1h30 in 4K60p. 

I do like that Fuji thought of a cooling fan add-on. Sony goes for the segmentation model.