The problem of sharing knowledge about camera's and editing.

[dafreaking]

You make an interesting point... except the analogy is flawed as many many blind taste tests show people can not tell the difference between Coca Cola and its competitors. 

 

Were they regular drinkers of Coke or their competitors? Would be good to know. I for one know the taste difference between Coke and Pepsi but I don't drink too much of either any more. 

[Quirky]

Every company has their 'secret ingredients' as you wish. Nobody knows still what all ingredients of Coca Cola are. And for a good reason. Other brands might come close, but nothing tastes like Coke. 

 

In real life, the secret recipe of Coke is irrelevant. It may have got them started but that is not what has made Coca Cola so big. What Coca Cola has is massive brand recognition. The same thing that has kept Canon alive and on top of the sales figures despite their rather phlegmatic consumer camera line these days. 

 

You could take a bottle of Coke and relabel it as Acme Cola or whatever, and no one would buy it. Even though the taste is identical. The target audience like teens are not buying the taste, they are buying the brand and the associated tribe experience. They might even assert that your Acme Cola sucks. Or even if it didn't, they'd still choose Coke. Even if Acme Cola tasted the same and was cheaper.

 

On the other hand, to a big audience including myself the taste difference of Coke is totally irrelevant, too, because I don't drink Coke, and I've never really liked it. I don't care about their alleged secret ingredients or other marketing memes, I'm just not their target audience. I don't care what Coke or Pepsi costs. It doesn't matter, because I'd still choose my own favourite beverages over any cola drink.

 

Another case in point, Microsoft. MS Windows and Word dominated a big part of the desktop computer market in the 90's and early 2000's, but that doesn't mean they were the 'best.' Far from it. The underdogs at the time, like Apple and various flavours of *nix had their own devoted niches to whom it didn't really matter how popular Windows was in the mainstream. They preferred something different, even if they had to pay a bit more for it.

 

It does kinda work with your wedding videographer concept, too, if we stretch the analogy a bit.

I know it sounds like a cheesy cliché but in case your business is something like wedding videography, you are the secret cola recipe, the only ingredient hard to copy in such a business. Not your technical skills alone, because that's easier to copy, but your personality, your style, and how you interact with your clients. Your mojo is your secret recipe.

 

As we noted, the secret cola recipe does not really determine who will buy the drink and who won't. You work your mojo to attract your own potential clients, and when you do, they won't care if some other wedding shooter is offering their services cheaper. On the other hand, there will always be a big bunch of potential clients who will never become your clients. Then there are the bottom feeders who want everything for free. Not much point in trying to compete for those.

 

So, instead of agonising over the herds of newbies with 7D's you could use that energy more productively, like trying to find that niche of clients who value the kind of work and quality you're offering. Easier said than done, for sure, but that's probably more profitable than being a grumpy ork growling at the noobs.

 

 

Suppose this novel-length comment could be shrunk into this;

The newbies are already here, nothing you can do about it, so not much point in worrying about that, either. Not everyone is your potential client. Just try to find your own niche who love Stab Cola, and let the newbies with their 7D's handle the rest. Especially all the bottom feeders who only drink Cheapo Cola.  ;)

[Quirky]

Hey Quirky, I wasn't being a troll, I was talking about myself

 

I believe there has been a slight misunderstanding, JohnVid. I never implied you were trolling. Quite the opposite. What I said about your previous comment was that it "more or less sums up the whole topic." 

In other words, I agreed with you.  ;)

 

The rest of the comment wasn't about you, it was about the opening post of this thread. 

[Damphousse]

A professional photographer went on a safari tour for a travel agency. He asked me for advice because he wanted to shoot video with his 5D as well and try to sell it for the client's homepage. I told him, capture moving motifs, don't move the camera too much. Vary the framing of your shots, that's important for interesting editing. It's almost like preparing a slideshow. He nodded, got it.
 
He came back, disappointed. He made everything wrong. He used the wrong shutter. He panned a lot, at the wrong speeds. He asked me to edit it and to insert some stills where he hadn't got the shots right. I declined the offer.

You just elegantly illustrated why Canon isn't too pressed to go after the enthusiast video market in a big way. The number of people that actually know how to get decent video out of ANY camera and appreciate it is small. No one I know shoots DSLR video nor would they ever buy a Panasonic or Sony camera.

Honestly, amongst the pure hobbyists on this forum how many of you know other friends/family who shoot DSLR video? How many of you know anyone who edits video in a NLE?

There is a market for enthusiast video. It’s just not as large as people think. I can’t think of many people that put as much time and effort into hobbies as I do into video. Between researching the equipment, learning shooting techniques, learning coloring and the basics of editing it’s a lot. Photography is a different game. Just point and shoot. Maybe point and shoot in aperture priority mode. No manual focus... just zooms and IS lenses. Asking people to go back to manual lenses with no IS and learn about shutter angle and ND filters is a giant leap backwards. The average person will just whip out their iphone and be done with it.

And I think when you are giving people advice you really need to consider that. Slog2 and various flat profiles are fine but is the person really going to have the time and skill to grade all that footage? I know I wasted a lot of time with log footage when I started.

[Damphousse]

In real life, the secret recipe of Coke is irrelevant. It may have got them started but that is not what has made Coca Cola so big. What Coca Cola has is massive brand recognition. The same thing that has kept Canon alive and on top of the sales figures despite their rather phlegmatic consumer camera line these days.

No. Canon's camera SYSTEM is second to none. Canon has more excellet modern OEM lenses than everyone else. They have some of the best IS implimentation in the business. They have the bigger sensors everyone craves (Full frame and APS-C) not miniture sensors you constantly have to justify.

Canon falls short big time in sub $3000 video. But that is not what the majority of people buy a DSLR for. Canon sensors also fall short in some photography metrics, but the problem is camera sensors are so mature now for the majority of people it doesn't matter.

To take your analog if they did the Pepsi challenge with Canon, Nikon, and Sony no average person could tell from the prints which photograph came from which camera. And I mean real life shots. Let three pros go out with each camera and shoot a variety of subjects of their choosing. Toss them in a pile and ask someone off the street to sort them by camera manufacturer. No one could do it with any degree of accuracy. But you ask anyone who can count and they will tell you Canon has more lenses than anyone else. The world is far more rational they you are giving it credit for.

[Quirky]

You just elegantly illustrated why Canon isn't too pressed to go after the enthusiast video market in a big way. 

 

No. Canon's camera SYSTEM is second to none. 

 

You're entitled to your opinions, but this thread has nothing to do with Canon or their fanboys base.

Read the OP. It's about the woes of a wedding video maker trying to make ends meet with all the newbies entering the market. 

 

 

To take your analog if they did the Pepsi challenge

 

Not my analog. 

[Axel]

Honestly, amongst the pure hobbyists on this forum how many of you know other friends/family who shoot DSLR video? How many of you know anyone who edits video in a NLE?

 

Let me tell you another true story. Some ten years ago a friend of mine asked me if I would borrow her my VX2000. She wanted to shoot a video as a gift for her father's 50th birthday. She had Windows Movie Maker on her laptop. No experience with photo/video at all. Sport student. 

 

She interviewed her family, she dubbed her father's dog, live, during recording. She cut a wonderful 15-minute-video, she hand-made titles, in fact a sloppy but charming stop motion, a birthday cake gradually forming out of thin air. 

 

On a Friday I explained to her the basics of how to operate the camera. The following Monday she brought it back and showed me the film. I was gobsmacked.

 

On the other hand, there is, as you put it, the market for enthusiast video. An invective? I linked this clip before:

[JohnVid]

I believe there has been a slight misunderstanding, JohnVid. I never implied you were trolling. Quite the opposite. What I said about your previous comment was that it "more or less sums up the whole topic."

In other words, I agreed with you.  ;)

 

The rest of the comment wasn't about you, it was about the opening post of this thread. 

Yeah I caught that aswell, sometimes I like to make a point a short as possible, other times I ramble, I also don't mind teaching, there is actually good business to be had from teaching, sometimes we give it away but the better way is to try to start charging for some lessons, what they say those that can do, the rest teach :) Remember it's not always about what you know, but who..

[tosvus]

Not sure where to start with this topic...

 

I guess as others have said;

1. Technology is cheap and here to stay (and get even cheaper). So you have to live with that.

2. I am a proponent of sharing info. Granted, in this area I still learn more from others than I teach, but I try. When I get very good at it, I will still want to share. There are wonderful examples of people here and elsewhere that do this already. It is also good to have friends/contacts. Living in a vacuum is never smart. It tends to choke you to death.

3. Nobody can take your creativity away from you. If you however always follow a recipe, sure someone can emulate that, though maybe not 100%... If that is the case though, maybe you don't really deserve to be in a position that is different anyway? If what you do is so easily replaced by amateurs with a "script", well... At least you don't have to worry about your job being outsourced to a low cost country on the other side of the globe...

4. I find it particularly worrying that someone who admitted benefiting learning from others on the internet, now suddenly wants to keep what he picked up along the way to himself. If you had been sitting and contemplating on the perfect technique all by yourself on top of a mountain for years, I would have more sympathy for being protective. 

[BookMark]

sorry, i dont want to spend too much time quoting every one. 

 

1, have a look at bbc recent documentary "life story" behind the scene clips, you will see quite a lot panasonic gears.

 

2, for me, i found myself re-verify/challenge my knowledge every time i teach some one. even very basic iso/aperture/shutter speed relationship. plus, i dont clam to be perfect/know-it-all, so there is always something you can learn by sharing.... 

[hmcindie]

There are several different topics here. One (that is absolutely awesome) is what the DSLR / Youtube craze started and that is the fact that anyone can make a compelling feature / short if they just have the know how. And the know how is out there. If you make something that millions of people will want to see, you will most likely get paid at least something. It's not really about the looks, it is about the content and if people don't get it then they will miss out on that market. You can always buy a camera and shoot scenery but until you take that step to really make something that you think people might wanna see, you wont get to the big bucks. Also these guys aren't really competing against one another in the sense that wedding videographers are. The client is basically everyone in the world and there's plenty of viewing time to go around, though people only give it to entertaining content.

 

The other topic is low-end video productions. These will start to have a huge amount of competition and freelancing work will be more and more common. It's actually great for the low-end freelancers. If they do their job properly, there will be a constant demand as everyone wants to make videos with talented guys. It's not that good for people just starting out because there are a lot of pitfalls that experienced freelancers can get around. These pitfalls aren't apparent and you can't really find them out from the internet. Or you can but you won't realize most of them until you step into them.

 

Think about compositing software. Anyone who just really puts their time into learning to work as a compositor will most likely find work. There is a huge demand for good compositors and that is because videos are being made more and more. And everyone wants to specialize and make their work better for the client. There is now also a huge demand for camera operators. So instead of putting up your own company and doing all that company shite, why not just freelance your way around for a while, just doing a specific thing? People who do it all are actually in less of a demand than people doing more specific work. 

 

People that are afraid of other people coming in with a better camera and getting the gig should be afraid. Not because someone has a better camera but because someone might be more talented or cheaper. It's a constant struggle but that's what doing business is. Luckily cameras are great equalizers now. Even the worst ones are now pretty damn good.

 

Think about the drone business. When it started, the first ones made pretty good money. But now everyone has a drone, how are you going to specialize? If I get a big gig, I wouldn't just hire someone who is cheaper just because, I need to hire someone that is verifiably good. Bigger clients usually know this. Those that don't are mostly cheap clients and losing those is not always that big of a deal.

 

p.s Is there anyone here who knows anything about locating IP addresses?

[fuzzynormal]

I made more doing less 15 years ago than I do today.

That's the reality. And since the gear is cheap, more creative fresh people give it a go --and have skills doing it.

Can't stop it. If the solution is being a group of trades folks that are snobbish and cloistered about their skills, not sharing their enthusiasm for creation...then I'll just do something else.

Bottom line, if you're good in a valuable way you can rise above the floor "talent" and make a living.

For instance, maybe youre not the most creative dude out there but you have fun, are cool to hang out with, are always are reliable, and beat deadlines by a day. Someone's gonna value that and give you work.