Lumix GM1 vs G6 vs Sony A6000.

[Fatalfury]

We will be shooting a restaurant promotional vid next week and need a b cam to bmpcc. Due to limited budget, I've narrowed down the possible cameras down to Lumix G6 (499€ with kit lens), Lumix GM1 (599€ with kit lens) and Sony A6000 (about 600€ for body only). I have lumix 14mm plus wide angle converter (11mm), zuiko 45mm F1.8 and plenty of FD, OM, C-Mount and Lomo lenses plus standard mft adapters and a FD to m43 focal reducer. Im leaning towards Lumix GM1, because i'd love to use it as a tiny walkaround camera. Will try to get my hands on Sony A7 in the future for legacy glass, A7 and GM1 would complement each other. There is also the possibility to rent bm4kcc and a Canon 5D Mark III for this job, but it seems wiser to buy a new camera because i don't have a photo camera of my own any more (sold Oly E-P5 due to poor video).

 

I have a few questions regarding these cameras:

 

Is the screen on GM1 good enough for manual focusing?

 

Is the video quality and low light performance really better on the  GM1 (similar to GX7)?

 

Out of those three, which would you preffer? Im putting the A6000 last because there might not be enough time to get proper adapters for this time. But willing to give it a chance, if it's better than a G6 or GM1. 

[andy lee]

g6 is a superb camera and will do the job for you very very well ,

 

but - gx7 is the best panasonic 1080p camera they have made to date - it has the same sensor as the gh4

 

its is very very clean , produces a superb image .so if you can get one its a better camera longterm

[Fatalfury]

g6 is a superb camera and will do the job for you very very well ,

 

but - gx7 is the best panasonic 1080p camera they have made to date - it has the same sensor as the gh4

 

its is very very clean , produces a superb image .so if you can get one its a better camera longterm

I've read here and there that the GM1 outputs similar quality to GX7 (noise, colours...I. But i don't have any idea does the opinion still stands. G6 is probably the most sensible choice (evf, tilting screen, ergonomics, 60p) but if the iq really is better on the GM1, i would choose the latter. Plus im sort of intrigued by the miniscule size. Dunno. GX7 is over my budget unfortunately.

[andy lee]

g6 is your best choise then , the EVF and peaking are essential - I can not work without them .

[andy lee]

in day time outside in bright light the gx7 and g6 are very similar iq wise

at night in low light the gx7 is maybe 10% better - cleaner than the g6 - less noise in the blacks

[Fatalfury]

in day time outside in bright light the gx7 and g6 are very similar iq wise

at night in low light the gx7 is maybe 10% better - cleaner than the g6 - less noise in the blacks

For this job i will be using tripod and a slider, restaurant is also quite badly lit. If only 10%, then i will get G6. GM1 does have focus peaking, which makes the choice harder. Can't go wrong with a G6, but it's probably not a very good as a pocketable picture shooter.

[Fatalfury]

There is a local deal for a LX100 today 760€ vs 599€ GM1. 4K is a bit overkill for this job. Id sell the 45mm 1.8 but keep Lumix 14mm for bmpcc.

[andy lee]

save the money and get some lights , lighting is the key thing!

.....all the rest in number crunching pixel peeping -

[fuzzynormal]

For this job i will be using tripod and a slider, restaurant is also quite badly lit. If only 10%, then i will get G6. GM1 does have focus peaking, which makes the choice harder. Can't go wrong with a G6, but it's probably not a very good as a pocketable picture shooter.

 

My company just finished a documentary shoot with a GX7 and the GM1 was the b-cam.  Their image IQ is the same from my experience.  We put a loupe (a cheap Hoodman) on the GM1 for focus assisting.  Not a bad solution.  Looks ugly as hell, but it works.

 

It's my stealth camera.  We use it to shoot clean and impressive video in locations where we need to fly under the radar.

 

We also do a lot of run and gun small business work; shoot lots of restuarants.  One of my main gigs in the past was filming restaurants and galleys on cruise ships.  Most of that was done on NTSC cameras and 2/3" CCD sensors.  

 

That said, if there's an attractive evenly lit small business on the planet I've yet to find it.  

 

Here's my easy solution to make the lighting in businesses look better:  Turn off their lights.  Always.  Then utilize the natural source as best you can and supplement with your own sources only if needed.  2 or 3 good LED's will do the trick since most cameras these days are decent in lower light.  

 

Many times just having some natural light pouring in with good drop off into the distance is enough to get by.  Hitting your subject with some side rim/back light makes a ton of difference.  Strategizing effective angles that take advantage of that new light is the final step.  It's fast, simple, and effective.

 

You do that and your work will look better, doesn't matter what camera it's shot on.  

 

If I could pound one sentiment into the heads of video and photography enthusiast it would be this:  Stop worrying about camera bodies and lenses until you understand light and learn to control it.  An education in this stuff is free on the interwebs.  You can become a better shooter than most overnight with an earnest ambition to apply good lighting to your work...but since knowledge is not something you can purchase from B&H not as many people rant about it online.

[leeys]

That said, if there's an attractive evenly lit small business on the planet I've yet to find it.  

 

Here's my easy solution to make the lighting in businesses look better:  Turn off their lights.  Always.  Then utilize the natural source as best you can and supplement with your own sources only if needed.  2 or 3 good LED's will do the trick since most cameras these days are decent in lower light.  

Hah, that's the truth!

 

I'm getting the feeling your area and my area have quite different building styles. A lot of the places I've been have no access to natural lighting. I need to either use my lights, or use their lighting (because the owner wants to capture the "ambient design choices we've made"). As a commercial shooter you don't always have the luxury of using the best methods all the time!

[maxotics]

We will be shooting a restaurant promotional vid next week and need a b cam to bmpcc. 

 

If you go after a certain type of dynamic range none of the Panasonic cameras will match the bmpcc.  I have a GM1 and love it, but it doesn't have near the DR as a RAW based camera.  I don't know what "look" you're going for.  If you try to maximize the strengths of the BMPCC it will work against you with the 8-bit cameras.

 

Here's a video I did about my choice of going with the GM1 instead of BMPCC for personal stuff

 

 

You'll see certain scenes where the BMPCC has a kind of lighting depth the GM1 can't match, like the basement of the Goodwill.  Or my desk.  Outside in high contrast, they can probably match very well.

 

The small size of the GM1, and it's ability to mount all kinds of lenses, makes it a unique camera.  The silent shutter is also very useful.  As Andy says, it is better in low light than the g6, so even though 10%, I think it makes enough of a difference to lose the EVF (or go with GX7).

 

I have an a6000 too.  Great camera, and better low light than the GM1 BUT will still not match the BMPCC in my opinion.  Where the a6000 can have shallower DOF than the GM1, and less noise, the Panasonic image is cleaner.  Again, though I'm saying you may have problems matching to the BMPCC, the Panny cameras are amazing if you've never used one.  In fact, I had a guy in my office today who shoots professionally on Canon gear and when he played with the GM1 he was floored.

 

In short, I believe you will have problems matching cameras, but if you experiment before hand, in what you want to shoot, and with what camera, you can find ways to match them fine and YES, the GM1/G6/GX7 will allow you to get shots you can't get with the BMPCC.

 

As Andy said, "Amateurs talk bodies, pros talk glass, and photographers talk light."  

[fuzzynormal]

As a commercial shooter you don't always have the luxury of using the best methods all the time!

 

Nope, that's for sure.  It's always a compromise.  Not that internal lighting can have an interesting look, but control of the light, if possible, is always a good way to go.

[Fatalfury]

Thanks for the input, i appreciate it! I remembered that my brother wanted to get a light compact camera for travelling and i was a bit selfish and recommended him a GM1 set with 12-32mm plus grip and lumix 20mm f1.7 II for 775€ (local black friday inspired 24h sale). Didn't recommend LX100 because he also wanted the possibilty to use a zoom lens with longer reach. Anyway he said that he will loan the camera for me to use this weekend. I can see that the bmpcc looks more film like, but the GM1 looks also quite nice, although more video look. Probably not an easy match, but will try. I'll surely get GM1 too if i end up loving it, or go with G6/GX7. We will definitely rent two or three led lights for this shoot, specifically for buffet closeups and such.

[maxotics]

I can see that the bmpcc looks more film like

 Yes and no.  The only real difference between the BMPCC and the GM1 is that the BMPCC has peltier cooling around the sensor, and the circuitry, allowing it to dump up to 30 frames a second of RAW sensor data, either as DNGs, or compressed into ProRes.  That means you can make it look more "film like" if you want, because you're dealing with 12-bit depth frames, but you can also do what the GM1 does in camera before writing to the card, make it 8 bit with about 6-8 stops of DR.

 

Keep in mind, the BMPCC has as hard a workflow, and focus gotchas, as the GM1 has as easy a workflow and good autofocus.

 

Others can chime in here, but I have a radical idea for you.  Shoot your A-cam the GM1 and make the BMPCC the backup.  I say this because I worry, if you don't have a lot of experience, that you may not be able to grade the BMPCC to something you like.  It's true that it gives you a lot more flexibility in post, but can also be unforgiving if you don't expose it correctly.  What I LOVE about the Pannys is they give me good video in idiot mode.  Not true with the BMPCC.  

 

On the lights, you should know that all lights have CRI rating, that is, how even they illuminate each color.  I don't have much experience with LEDs, but I believe you would get better food color from quartz-halogon than LED.  LEDs are better these days, but I'd be wary.   These are things working DPs can work around.  Seems you're dealing with a lot of unknowns.  

 

Maybe use the BMPCC for the food shots where the color depth may help (and you can take your time) and use the GM1 for the people scenes and long-shots where people are impatient.

[Fatalfury]

 Yes and no.  The only real difference between the BMPCC and the GM1 is that the BMPCC has peltier cooling around the sensor, and the circuitry, allowing it to dump up to 30 frames a second of RAW sensor data, either as DNGs, or compressed into ProRes.  That means you can make it look more "film like" if you want, because you're dealing with 12-bit depth frames, but you can also do what the GM1 does in camera before writing to the card, make it 8 bit with about 6-8 stops of DR.

 

Keep in mind, the BMPCC has as hard a workflow, and focus gotchas, as the GM1 has as easy a workflow and good autofocus.

 

Others can chime in here, but I have a radical idea for you.  Shoot your A-cam the GM1 and make the BMPCC the backup.  I say this because I worry, if you don't have a lot of experience, that you may not be able to grade the BMPCC to something you like.  It's true that it gives you a lot more flexibility in post, but can also be unforgiving if you don't expose it correctly.  What I LOVE about the Pannys is they give me good video in idiot mode.  Not true with the BMPCC.  

 

On the lights, you should know that all lights have CRI rating, that is, how even they illuminate each color.  I don't have much experience with LEDs, but I believe you would get better food color from quartz-halogon than LED.  LEDs are better these days, but I'd be wary.   These are things working DPs can work around.  Seems you're dealing with a lot of unknowns.  

 

Maybe use the BMPCC for the food shots where the color depth may help (and you can take your time) and use the GM1 for the people scenes and long-shots where people are impatient.

 

Thanks for the tips, i will keep these in mind. I will shoot this with my friend who is a pro DOP, and has years of experience behind camera and he definitely knows how to grade. He will shoot with the pocket camera and i will be the b camera guy (im a complete noob). I wonder what might be the best settings to get the most flat picture out of GM1, and if it's better to expose to the right. Im afraid i don't have enough time to test the camera before shoot. I also found out that my brother might not recieve the GM1 he ordered before my shoot. Then i would have to buy myself the G6, but it's not as appealing as GM1 or GX7 from photographers view.

 

Edit: I think im in trouble. There are no spare batteries on sale for the GM1 locally. Surely one battery won't do? Also no chance to get a G6 before the shoot, because they're sold out.

[leeys]

Here's another pro tip: Never make gear purchases this close to a shoot. You never know what hiccups you can run into.

[maxotics]

Edit: I think im in trouble. There are no spare batteries on sale for the GM1 locally. Surely one battery won't do? Also no chance to get a G6 before the shoot, because they're sold out.

 

I actually think it a blessing because it seems you may need more time to pick your camera, long-term.  Borrow any Canon/Nikon from a friend is what I'd suggest.  Don't worry too much about the expose to the right (which is really better with RAW; h.264 isn't as forgiving).  Also, your DP is going to be focused on shots he wants to do, it sounds like you represent the client.  In any case, ONE of you needs to pay attention to making sure you get the shots you need.  Shooting should be second-priority to one of you.  

 

Many of my favorite videos and photographs were taken with old cameras I never meant to use but had to, for one reason or another.  And to follow-on to what Leeys says, don't try new stuff at shoots, you never know what hiccups you can run into.  Borrow a camera, put it on auto mode, and focus on framing, composition, and help your main DP.  You'll have fun and I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised!

 

One story, I went to my niece's concert and they said no photography.  Don't know why, they usually didn't say that.  Anyway, I had brought a BMPCC to use, was really excited.  But I knew it would be obvious if I took it out.  And ushers did go through the audience slapping wrists of camera users.  I also had a Panasonic G5 with me, which I had gotten about a day or so earlier, knew little about, so I put it on auto mode and shot through my coat.  The video was great!  Better than I would have gotten with the BMPCC--definitely a lot longer ;)  It PAID TO BE AN IDIOT :)  

 

Don't sweat not having the camera you want for your shoot!  

[Fatalfury]

Thanks again for the tips everyone! Based on this thread i decided to order Lumix GX7 body from overseas, but i was unsure if it would arrive by the time of the shoot so i our buddy loaned me a Canon 5D Mark III. Coincidentally the Panasonic arrived the same day of the shoot and i went with the Canon on early morning and used  a GX7 later. It was a bit hectic because i have zero experience with either of these cameras. I 100% agree with you guys, if you go on a job, u need to know your tools inside out. Now it's weekend and i have some time to test the best possible settings with the GX7 before we go continue early next week.

What i noticed that the sharpness dialed down minus 5 makes the footage a little too soft. So i think minus 2 or 3 might be optimal. I have yet to find any discussions on best possible settings for GX7. Overall i feel that the GX7 is a very nice camera, but i would prefer an EP-5 with the same video quality (mainly for the ibis). I don't undertsand the Olympus reluctance to offer better video capabilities, if the EM-5 II finally gets proper 24/24p with nondestructive codec, i shall buy it. 

[maxotics]

Sharpness is actually a function of contrast between neighboring pixels.  In 8-bit images it is possible to increase contrast, but difficult to take it away.  You can easily make your footage as sharp as you want in your NLE, or post, so I wouldn't worry about it looking soft out of the camera.  Naturally, you should do a few tests to ascertain this for yourself.  If you're always going to shoot to the camera's default sharpness leave it alone in camera to save you a step in post.