I told you CANON would come again

[jax_rox]

What they might do is make something with the same 1080p quality on the C100, on the 5D or a new mirrorless, that would make sense.

No, that wouldn't make any sense - they would then be cannibalising C100mkII sales. Most people who shoot on C-series cameras are people who have come from SLR shooting. They may have certain features about C-cameras that they like, but if someone's looking to make a camera purchase, and they can buy a 5DmkIV with the same image quality as the C100mkII for $2k less, they're going to go for the 5D.

 

There's nowhere Canon can go in terms of major improvements for video in the sub $5k market that won't cannabalise their C-series lineup.

I would expect incremental video updates, and much more substantial updates on the photography side, at least for the <$5k market.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

No it really does make perfect sense. And if Canon's marketing divison sees it the way you describe it they're totally out of the market. Juat because an A7s has as sharp of an image as the FS100/700/FS7/F5 it doesn't mean they cannabilized their sales and everyone now who shoots 1080p will go for the A7s.

The 5D should have a pump in IQ to bring it close to the C100 mk II. The MK II would still have the proper audio XLRs, internal NDs, ergonomic body and larger battery, articulating 3.5" screen, a big EVF, sharp 1080p 60p, broadcast-approved path for a Ninja, Wifi control, waveforms, peaking, zebras, and all the tools professionals rely on to produce video. If I had the budget I would pay the extra 2K for these even if the 5D had similar 1080p quality. I would pay another major amount for a C300 with 4K internal, 120p and 10bit and all the C100 mk II features. Professionals will keep buying just bring us a good quality video image under 5K, it's hurting their reputation pretty badly not protecting the C line.

[jax_rox]

No it really does make perfect sense. And if Canon's marketing divison sees it the way you describe it they're totally out of the market. Juat because an A7s has as sharp of an image as the FS100/700/FS7/F5 it doesn't mean they cannabilized their sales and everyone now who shoots 1080p will go for the A7s.

You never said 'as sharp as' - you said identical image quality. The FS100 is discontinued, so you can't compare an A7s to it. The FS700 offers over the A7s:

• High frame rates (240fps in HD, up to 960fps in lower quality)
• Internal ND
• XLR inputs without extra purchase
• 3G SDI
• Better rolling shutter
• Slog in full RGB range vs TV-safe range
• 10-bit HDMI output
• 4k and 2k 12-bit raw available via external recorder

It's a different camera, with a different purpose, and enough extra features to justify the extra price. The FS7 offers a similar improvement over the FS700.
 
 
A C100 would offer over a 5D with the same image quality:

• Internal ND
• XLR inputs

Waveform, peaking, zebras... all available via an inexpensive monitor. Wifi control is generally a gimmick, and has no real use on-set.
 
 
 

If I had the budget I would pay the extra 2K for these even if the 5D had similar 1080p quality.

So you could keep saving, buy the C100mkII and Canon can make more money from you.. or they can bring out the same image at 2/3 the price, and make less money from you..

 

I would pay another major amount for a C300 with 4K internal, 120p and 10bit and all the C100 mk II features. Professionals will keep buying just bring us a good quality video image under 5K, it's hurting their reputation pretty badly not protecting the C line.

That won't happen either, because then the C500 has nowhere to go. The C500 does not even have 4k internally. Canon's top of the line cinema camera does not even record higher than 30p internally at 1080.

My money is on a 5DmkIV with better photographic quality. Video quality incrementally better, perhaps a better codec (maybe H.265?).
C300mkII with 2k 4:2:0 8-bit internal, 10-bit 4:2:2 via external recorder. C500mkII with 4k 4:2:0 8-bit internal, maybe 1080p at up to 96-120fps.

Then maybe they'll announce their rumoured 'high-end cinema' cam, which will probably have an 8k sensor recording 4k internally to CFast cards... or something.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I have no belief in that making the next 3.5k 5D image similar to the C100 image would somehow render the C100 unpopular or less useful. I am using the Sony example the FS700 for example because it's even a more expensive camera than the C100 and the A7s delivers better image at lower the 5D price.

Compared to the FS700 is delivers a bigger sensor, sharper image, XAVC-S 50mpbs vs AVCHD 24mpbs on the FS700 and bit outputs a 4K signal full frame out of the HDMI. The FS700 can shoot 4K too and raw but with the hardware required it's at the C300 level not the C100 at all, and the FS700 is a great seller, that's why I am saying Canon can definitely sell a 11-12k 4K 10bit 120p camera (like the FS700 + R5 recorder + the raw modue) and a 1080p AVCHD camera for 5K (lile the FS700 without addons) and a 5D mk III with the A7s quality.

The 5D quality is great and similar in colour and not far from the C100 in lowlight performance, it's just too damn soft. The resolution is the only aspect crippling Canon DSLRs. They can still differentiate between them with a but more DR on the C100, bit better detail, C-Log, HQ 60p (Make the 5D 60p lile the 1Dc, softer while on the C100 it's just as good as the 24p) good audio, Internal ND filters, XLRs, EVF, Zebras/peaking/waveform, broadcast approved option by all broadcasters, much larger battery, articulating larger LCD, there are many reasons for the C100 mk II to sell if the 5D has good video quality. It doesn't have to be a 720p image in a 1080p wrapper, if Canon thinks so they are in complete isolation from the market.

[Promit Roy]

Canon's made it clear that they don't consider DSLR video to be a serious thing. And for those who do consider it to be a serious thing, they can go buy or rent an EOS Cine series product. And by all accounts, they're quite happy with how this has worked out. Hoping for anything else from them is simply irrational given their statements to date.

[zenpmd]

Why does everyone say that Canon cannot make a good 5dmk4 as it will "cripple" their higher end camera yet the same doesnt apply to Sony?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

What's so horrible.and terrifying for Canon to sell 10% less C100s and 50-60% more 5Ds? Especially that if you know how they work you'll know the profit margin is not that much higher between a 5D and a C100, it's tiny. Perhaps it's Canon startegy of not updating video quality on the lower end that gave that impression. Perhaps it what Canon marketing actually thinks and beliebes. Either way it's a pretty dumb strategy from their part if they don't fix it soon!

[jax_rox]

Why does everyone say that Canon cannot make a good 5dmk4 as it will "cripple" their higher end camera yet the same doesnt apply to Sony?

 

Sony have a different product offering. Sony's direct C300 competitor has 2k and 4k internal recording in 422 10-bit. Raw via an external recorder.

 

Not even the C500 can record even 2k internally. Sony have worked almost top-down to develop a product line and offering that complements each other and each serves its own purpose. Sony also waited a bit to release cameras like the F5/55 and the FS7 in order to one-up the competition.

 

Canon seem to have worked bottom up and not put a whole lot of forethought into how their ecosystem will work looking into the future.

It worked for them. Being first to market with a mid-range large sensor camera sold them a lot of units, but now they're in a position where they're struggling to keep up.

[zenpmd]

But the implication is that Canon will cripple the 5dm4, whereas Sony will always put top spec in. Sure the a7s is good, but CANON HAVENT REALEASE THE MK4 YET!

 

And yet everyone says its a failure before its began with no evidence.

 

7dmk2 is not a video cam and was a happy accident previously. It is a highend wildlife/sports stills camera

[JazzBox]

It will be funny to see what Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Blackmagic etc... will offer the day Canon will decide to give to their sub-5000$-users a decent EVF, focus peaking, zebra, a great codec, 50 to 96 1080p, decent battery life, 4K, easy connectivity to tablet/phones etc... 

For the moment, in my small town, 3 Canon enthusiasts filmmakers (not counting me) switched to MFT, one switched to Blackmagic and one remained with Canon, of course using ML's raw. 
Of course I'm not saying that if you have a Canon you should throw it away, but people that have to buy a new camera surely have some better options.

I think Canon should pay lots of dollars to Magic Lantern guys, that seems the only real reason to shoot video with Canon. 

[Andrew Reid]

And yet everyone says its a failure before its began with no evidence.

 

And you are doing the reverse which is the same thing.

[Andrew Reid]

7dmk2 is not a video cam and was a happy accident previously. It is a highend wildlife/sports stills camera

 

The 7D had a huge video following, actually. Canon say it is wildlife / sports stills camera because that's an even bigger market. Money talks. It will be their downfall in the end though, because the camera market is about more than just figures and numbers.

[Guest 560a4aedcb80685284629074497fdc75]

I was in a big independent camera shop in North Wales at the weekend, chatting to a seriously knowledgeable photographer (i.e. nerd) behind the desk (who shoots stills with a 5D3). He got the 7D MkII out and said "I've been waiting impatiently for this camera for YEARS and it is a massive let down as  stills camera because Canon have crippled it for you video guys". I looked bemused for a moment and said "but ... it's a crap video camera". He couldn't believe it. He was practically on the floor with laughter. Who knows what Canon are doing ...

[Andrew Reid]

I talked to London Camera Exchange in Manchester and they said a lot of Sony bodies were selling now. Used to be mostly Canon and Nikon. Times are a changin. Don't say I didn't warn them...

[jax_rox]

I talked to London Camera Exchange in Manchester and they said a lot of Sony bodies were selling now. Used to be mostly Canon and Nikon. Times are a changin. Don't say I didn't warn them...

 

I do remember reading that Sony's long term plan was to be the new number 2 in terms of photography - IOW they wanted to boout out either Nikon or Canon to 3rd place, no matter how long it took them.

[zenpmd]

"The 7D had a huge video following, actually."

 

Thats a bit like saying lots of hairdressers buy MX5s, so our next mx5 must be REALLY GOOD for hairdressers.

 

The 7d was used for video due to the lack of choices elsewhere, that is all. Canon doesnt care. You cant please everyone. They have made the perfect aps-c wildlife cam.

 

The real things they do which annoys me are in stills (to the 5d range):

 

1. Not linking AF point to spot metering (only 1dx does this, Nikon does it in every cam)

2. Stupid hard to see black dot for AF point which is invisable in low light

3. 1/250 max shutter speed for auto ISO - annoying for action

 

the list goes on

 

So dont think im not critical, Im just saying if the 5dmk4 sucks for video THEN we should all let rip and I probably will sell, but they havent fkced up yet...

[mtheory]

I talked to London Camera Exchange in Manchester and they said a lot of Sony bodies were selling now. Used to be mostly Canon and Nikon. Times are a changin. Don't say I didn't warn them...

 

Yep, they crippled DSLRs because they wanted to move all of us to C cameras, instead they are losing this massive new userbase to competitiors. They should've just continued the revolution with a 4K 1DX and all the 5D shooters would've upgraded, the market would've been theirs.

 

A C300 Mark II for $12k is not going to stop the tide of DSLR shooters leaving Canon, no matter what features it has.

[BookMark]

I talked to London Camera Exchange in Manchester and they said a lot of Sony bodies were selling now. Used to be mostly Canon and Nikon. Times are a changin. Don't say I didn't warn them...

i think "sustainability" is the next hurdle for Sony. so far, every few years Sony do a massive lineup overhaul. let's see in a few years time, if all these sony bodies/lenses will pop up in places like LCE.

[Damphousse]

But the implication is that Canon will cripple the 5dm4, whereas Sony will always put top spec in. Sure the a7s is good, but CANON HAVENT REALEASE THE MK4 YET!
 
And yet everyone says its a failure before its began with no evidence.

 

Canon is an investment grade company.  Sony is a junk bond company.  Canon is the number one camera manufacturer in the world.  Sony is a distant third.
 
Why would you assume they would have similiar strategies?  Canon is making money.  Sony is losing money.  Even if you go down to the division level Canon and Sony are making money in very different ways.  Canon has the Cinema line and their DSLR lineup where they are king and Sony is doing good things with it's larger sensor mirrorless cameras.  Also Canon has all their lenses where as Sony...
 
They are just two companies in very different situations and they are both doing what they think is best for them.  Look at Apple and Samsung.  Both have a strangle hold on the world cell phone market.  Apple for most of its history sold ONE cell phone.  Now after Jobs died they are up to three.  Samsung sells a ton of different phones and many of those come in two or more versions.  Apple is more profitable than Samsung but you wouldn't suggest Samsung's solution is to slash its device line down to three high priced (IMHO overpriced) handsets?  Neither would you expect Apple start selling tons of cheap iphones to compete with Chinese manufacturers.
 
My thesis is Canon has decided to cede one segment of the camera market to Sony, Panasonic, Blackmagic, etc.  They are being left to fight it out.
 
 

I was in a big independent camera shop in North Wales at the weekend, chatting to a seriously knowledgeable photographer (i.e. nerd) behind the desk (who shoots stills with a 5D3). He got the 7D MkII out and said "I've been waiting impatiently for this camera for YEARS and it is a massive let down as  stills camera because Canon have crippled it for you video guys". I looked bemused for a moment and said "but ... it's a crap video camera". He couldn't believe it. He was practically on the floor with laughter. Who knows what Canon are doing ...

 
That guy probably never even picked up a 7D MK II.  Like many people on photography review sites and forums he probably heard more video features and just assumed the camera sucks.  I've posted numerous quotes in this forum from photography forums and review sites from photographers swearing not to buy such and such camera if Canon/Nikon add any more video features.  If you are using that guy as your source the conclusion you should reach is Canon should move away from video.
 
This is what guys like that want...
 

In conversation with Nikon engineers, we were told that video was never on the table as an option for the Df, apparently as much a philosophical point as anything else. This is a serious camera for serious people which is to be used for 'pure photography', not videos

http://***URL removed***/reviews/nikon-df
 
Hard to believe but those people do exist.  And they are a lot more common than you think.
 
 

It will be funny to see what Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Blackmagic etc... will offer the day Canon will decide to give to their sub-5000$-users a decent EVF, focus peaking, zebra, a great codec, 50 to 96 1080p, decent battery life, 4K, easy connectivity to tablet/phones etc... 
.

 
Panasonic's camera division goes out of business.  Samsung... who knows.  They are a profitable company overall so they can have a division losing some money. Blackmagic... It really depends what they come out with.  I mean the $500 BMPCC sitting on my desk isn't a good omen.  Sony...  they get out of the consumer camera business.  Their low end stuff sales have already dropped precipitously.  They are banking on the a7s, a7r, etc.
 
The funny thing is people talk about "Panasonic" listening to their customers, etc.  Actually they should say some engineers and marketers in Panasonic's camera division.  Because I have seen zero commitment from the CEO of Panasonic to the camera division.  Panasonic is pivoting to industrial and automotive businesses and away from consumer electronics.
 

Tsuga has suspended production of panels for plasma TVs while trimming circuit board manufacturing and giving up on developing consumer smartphones. The goal is to reduce reliance on consumer electronics, where Panasonic has lagged behind Samsung Electronics (005930:KS) and Apple (AAPL). Instead, Tsuga is building partnerships with companies such as Tesla Motors (TSLA), the electric-car maker that agreed in October to buy 2 billion battery cells from Panasonic over four years.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-13/panasonic-revives-as-nintendo-sony-falter

[mtheory]