GoPro Hero12

[gt3rs]

 

Of course, I don’t judge the quality (hw, sw and video) from their stock price 🙂. But they are under enormous pressure to survive, it is not like being a private company. They did many miss steps so now they seem to be ripping off customers to try to stay afloat. Btw I was a GPRO stockholder.

My first Gopro was Hero 2 and went up Hero 10. In parallel I started using insta360 cameras and now I’m Gopro free 😊 although I use sometime some of my customer’s ones as backup cameras.

I filmed in harsh situations so my experience could be different than others.
I have mounted on Rally Cars in Lapland and Africa, on wings of Military Jet, on desert's Buggy, Alaska Heliskiing, MTB etc..

The number of freezes, overheats, battery draining (enduro battery was made because the standard one was basically useless in winter conditions...wtf) that I had it was just so frustrating.

Gopro Hero Max is so old that is insane that they still sell it and the software is ridiculously bad compared to the insta360 one.

Gopro Mini, Session etc they still don’t know what to do… seems a trial and error approach

Gopro 10 was probably the buggiest camera that I had from all the camera that I have owned. Just do a google search for freezes, overheats, battery drain... and you will see that I'm not the only one.

And let’s not talk about their subscription model that they try to “lock you in” with hw discount hoping that you will not cancel a pretty useless subscription.

I was a big gopro fan, but they failed so many times on me that I don’t trust them anymore.

The 12 should have been a FW fix of the 11.. but as quoted company you need to bring more revenue and is a declining market too as form many a phone is a better solution than a gopro.












 

[markr041]

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

 

Of course, I don’t judge the quality (hw, sw and video) from their stock price 🙂. But they are under enormous pressure to survive, it is not like being a private company. They did many miss steps so now they seem to be ripping off customers to try to stay afloat. Btw I was a GPRO stockholder.

My first Gopro was Hero 2 and went up Hero 10. In parallel I started using insta360 cameras and now I’m Gopro free 😊 although I use sometime some of my customer’s ones as backup cameras.

I filmed in harsh situations so my experience could be different than others.
I have mounted on Rally Cars in Lapland and Africa, on wings of Military Jet, on desert's Buggy, Alaska Heliskiing, MTB etc..

The number of freezes, overheats, battery draining (enduro battery was made because the standard one was basically useless in winter conditions...wtf) that I had it was just so frustrating.

Gopro Hero Max is so old that is insane that they still sell it and the software is ridiculously bad compared to the insta360 one.

Gopro Mini, Session etc they still don’t know what to do… seems a trial and error approach

Gopro 10 was probably the buggiest camera that I had from all the camera that I have owned. Just do a google search for freezes, overheats, battery drain... and you will see that I'm not the only one.

And let’s not talk about their subscription model that they try to “lock you in” with hw discount hoping that you will not cancel a pretty useless subscription.

I was a big gopro fan, but they failed so many times on me that I don’t trust them anymore.

The 12 should have been a FW fix of the 11.. but as quoted company you need to bring more revenue and is a declining market too as form many a phone is a better solution than a gopro.












 

That's great stuff, and we can see why you had some frustrating experiences. But you could read the history as GoPro responding to issues: eg, create the Enduro battery precisely to improve battery life in the cold, overcome the heat and battery life issues of the highest resolutions and frame rates, improve the responsiveness of the lcd to touch, add 10 bit color, provide log gammas, add full-sensor framing (8:7), up resolution, improve stabilization, make performance more reliable. And all the while keeping the same form factor and robustness and price. No to mention GoPro Labs innovations and the the use of QR codes.

Having failures is a symptom of innovation. There are really still no competitors (leaving aside 360 for now) that are not just trying to match, unsuccessfully, Hero's. No real innovation by anyone else.

And, we should keep complaining, because GoPro evidently responds!

 

[kye]

13 hours ago, gt3rs said:

The number of freezes, overheats, battery draining (enduro battery was made because the standard one was basically useless in winter conditions...wtf) that I had it was just so frustrating.

<snip>

Gopro Mini, Session etc they still don’t know what to do… seems a trial and error approach

Completely agree on both points.

I owned the Hero 3 Black, and used it as my waterproof camera to compliment my GF3.  I used it with the battery back for recording underwater, for snorkelling trips, for swimming with the kids, and for photos when it was raining.  It was actually a pretty good photo camera - I shot with no screen and set it to burst mode and would pan the camera and then select the photo with the right composition.  Great for street photography in this mode.

Anyway, after having it just stop working almost every time I recorded with it, I just adopted the habit of pulling the battery every time I got out of the water.  If I needed a new battery I'd swap it, if not I'd just pull it apart and wait 20s then put it back in again.  That sorted it out - most of the time anyway.  The frustrating thing is that if you notice it's stopped recording and you're snorkelling 500m from the shore, good luck trying to reset it...  back to the beach you're swimming!

Also agree that they didn't really know what to do in terms of the brands strategy.  They might have had some idea when they went down the path of having that drone that could use your GoPro on it.  The idea of buying a camera module and then mounting it to everything was a good one, but they just couldn't deliver, so got eaten alive by DJI.

7 hours ago, markr041 said:

That's great stuff, and we can see why you had some frustrating experiences. But you could read the history as GoPro responding to issues: eg, create the Enduro battery precisely to improve battery life in the cold, overcome the heat and battery life issues of the highest resolutions and frame rates, improve the responsiveness of the lcd to touch, add 10 bit color, provide log gammas, add full-sensor framing (8:7), up resolution, improve stabilization, make performance more reliable.

I absolutely and completely disagree.

The Hero 3 Black, which I owned, was an action camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• was buggy to the point of it being disruptive to shoot with

Over the course of the last decade the product went from the above to a camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had excellent stabilisation (new!)
• had a mode that un-fish-eyed the image (new!)
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• overheats unnecessarily compared to other cameras

In over a decade, that's not innovation.  

I watched each year as the new models came out to see if I would upgrade mine.  I really liked the form factor and entire concept because it complemented the rest of my setup so well.  

Spoiler: I ended up buying the Sony X3000 in 2019 because it had physical stabilisation instead of digital stabilisation, which works in low-light when the shutter speeds get longer and motion blur becomes a thing.

The parallel example is what smartphone manufacturers have done with smartphone cameras, and those have changed a huge amount during the last decade.

[markr041]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Completely agree on both points.

I owned the Hero 3 Black, and used it as my waterproof camera to compliment my GF3.  I used it with the battery back for recording underwater, for snorkelling trips, for swimming with the kids, and for photos when it was raining.  It was actually a pretty good photo camera - I shot with no screen and set it to burst mode and would pan the camera and then select the photo with the right composition.  Great for street photography in this mode.

Anyway, after having it just stop working almost every time I recorded with it, I just adopted the habit of pulling the battery every time I got out of the water.  If I needed a new battery I'd swap it, if not I'd just pull it apart and wait 20s then put it back in again.  That sorted it out - most of the time anyway.  The frustrating thing is that if you notice it's stopped recording and you're snorkelling 500m from the shore, good luck trying to reset it...  back to the beach you're swimming!

Also agree that they didn't really know what to do in terms of the brands strategy.  They might have had some idea when they went down the path of having that drone that could use your GoPro on it.  The idea of buying a camera module and then mounting it to everything was a good one, but they just couldn't deliver, so got eaten alive by DJI.

I absolutely and completely disagree.

The Hero 3 Black, which I owned, was an action camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• was buggy to the point of it being disruptive to shoot with

Over the course of the last decade the product went from the above to a camera that:

• shot various combinations of resolution and frame rates
• had excellent stabilisation (new!)
• had a mode that un-fish-eyed the image (new!)
• had wifi control and preview
• had software tools that weren't really that innovative
• overheats unnecessarily compared to other cameras

In over a decade, that's not innovation.  

I watched each year as the new models came out to see if I would upgrade mine.  I really liked the form factor and entire concept because it complemented the rest of my setup so well.  

Spoiler: I ended up buying the Sony X3000 in 2019 because it had physical stabilisation instead of digital stabilisation, which works in low-light when the shutter speeds get longer and motion blur becomes a thing.

The parallel example is what smartphone manufacturers have done with smartphone cameras, and those have changed a huge amount during the last decade.

Now you are just being ornery and unfortunately misleading. GoPro added 10bit color. That is not trivial. GoPro added 5.3K resolution at 60P. That is not trivial. No small waterproof camera has that combination. You just ignore these advances. Now we got control over the gamma curve; we can even control noise reduction - which you cannot do on Sony cinema cameras. That is new too. We can increase the color gamut, that is new. Maybe you just don't know about these advances?

GoPro stabilization won an Academy Award, and beats any camera of any price and any phone. 

It is a real challenge to avoid overheating in a tiny waterproof-sealed box shooting 180 mbs at 5.3K and 60 fps. And in the latest version they managed to more than double time to thermal shutdown, up to an hour. That is new and important. Sony, Nikon, and Canon top cameras overheat.

I have the Sony X3000. In its day it was the best action cam, and I really liked it and shot many videos with it. Today its IQ is a joke compared to that of any GoPro from 8 on up, as is its stabilization. And Sony stopped innovating in that area, completely.

I liked the little dji gimbal camera - that was innovative. It beats the Sony X3000 in every way too. But even its second version has inferior IQ and stabilization to the newer GoPros. And of course it is neither rugged nor waterproof. We will see what the third version offers.

Complaining about GoPros is useful, but only when it is informed.

[kye]

3 hours ago, markr041 said:

Now you are just being ornery and unfortunately misleading. GoPro added 10bit color. That is not trivial. GoPro added 5.3K resolution at 60P. That is not trivial. No small waterproof camera has that combination. You just ignore these advances. Now we got control over the gamma curve; we can even control noise reduction - which you cannot do on Sony cinema cameras. That is new too. We can increase the color gamut, that is new. Maybe you just don't know about these advances?

<snip>

Complaining about GoPros is useful, but only when it is informed.

I knew about these, they just weren't noteworthy.  My summary is still accurate.

In 2012 there was my GoPro Hero 3 and the iPhone 5, which were broadly comparable.

Now in 2023 there is the iPhone 15 which includes 3 cameras, one of which has an 8K sensor, it records Prores HQ to SSD, the log profile has a white paper and associated colour management profiles in ACES etc....   plus, it's a telephone, music player, video player, computer game console, portable computer, internet connection, etc etc etc.

If you want to talk about being informed then it might interest you to know that Sony cinema cameras can all record RAW externally, as well as a plethora of different compression options and profiles internally, which seems like world-class control over such things, instead of the GoPro which offers very few codecs, no RAW, and the colour profiles aren't supported by industry colour management frameworks.

I'm not saying that GoPro haven't done anything, I'm just saying that apart from adding their stabilisation (which was very impressive at the time) their upgrades have been incremental at best.

[markr041]

Another innovation: Now, Hero 11, 12 and mini can go 60 feet underwater instead of 30 feet without the extra external case with a new GoPro Labs firmware setting ("Dive Mode").

It turns out that the only problem going below 30 feet is that water pressure pushes the buttons down! This setting disables the buttons. Starting and stopping shooting is based on shaking the camera and exciting the gyroscope or the accelerometer. Clever and useful.

The GoPro Labs firmware adds a large variety of capabilities not available on any other "action", or many other cameras, and continues to add features.

Let's continue to gripe about GoPros's, in an informed way, so GoPro continues to innovate.

[kye]

11 hours ago, markr041 said:

Another innovation: Now, Hero 11, 12 and mini can go 60 feet underwater instead of 30 feet without the extra external case with a new GoPro Labs firmware setting ("Dive Mode").

It turns out that the only problem going below 30 feet is that water pressure pushes the buttons down! This setting disables the buttons. Starting and stopping shooting is based on shaking the camera and exciting the gyroscope or the accelerometer. Clever and useful.

The GoPro Labs firmware adds a large variety of capabilities not available on any other "action", or many other cameras, and continues to add features.

Let's continue to gripe about GoPros's, in an informed way, so GoPro continues to innovate.

How interesting that it's the buttons that were the limitation.  I guess it makes sense, but I wouldn't have thought of it.

It's cool to see a software feature to get around it.

I'm happy to acknowledge that GoPro have innovated, that's obvious, but criticism is a part of a balanced point of view, it's not irrational hatred.  Everything has strengths and weaknesses, every product developed comes at the cost of the products that could have been developed but weren't.  GoPro innovated, but didn't innovate as much as they could or should have, and one of the biggest criticisms is that they're not innovating enough to stay in business long-term, which I think is a fair criticism.  It's also a reasonable criticism of almost all the camera brands.  

Those that think that camera brands are innovative should look at DJI and products like the Ronin 4D.  THAT product is truly innovative.  It includes more innovations in a single product than most camera companies make in a decade, or five decades.  The really silly thing is that many of the innovations we see in todays products could have been made one, or two, or five product generations ago - there were no technical limitations - just leadership and product design laziness.

It's not like creativity is scarce either, anyone who has spent any time with kids will know that ideas are plentiful.  Had GoPro invited a stream of 5-10 year olds into their offices to play with the products and talk to the designers they'd have gotten dozens of actionable ideas faster than they could implement them.  

It's not like it's completely from left-field either...  
GoPro: "it goes to 30 feet underwater"  
Normal customer: "cool, why not more?"
GoPro: "the water pushes the buttons down"
Normal customer: "can't you make it go more?"
GoPro: "how would you stop and start it? - you'd need some other way to communicate to the camera..  hmmm...  well, we have the gyro now...  that gives me an idea!"

The idea of a second firmware with better codecs and disabling the buttons to go deeper is great, but it's not like they couldn't have done that on the Hero 5 Session - which was released 7 years ago.  

[Emanuel]

I have some interesting experience as camera user used to exchange of capture device or gear (when not only for updating to the last version) several times a year among much distinct pieces of tools...

GoPro is definitely the one with more demand from people looking for used market or open box units.

To me, it was a surprise. No other brand beats their market value, at least from my own experience, a good one to tell :- )

[markr041]

 

[zlfan]

How does gp12 compare to inst360  1  inch, rx0 ii? 
will go go 1 inch?

[markr041]

There was indeed something wrong with the G-Log implementation in the Hero 12 initial firmware as I suspected. I believe that the EV was automatically set to -2 (with no notice) and the LUT upped the luma to compensate. The result was, in my first video using the G-Log and the LUT, horrible noise in the shadows on a bright day. Not subtle.

GoPro has just issued a firmware update adding EV control when choosing G-Log and has issued a first LUT for it called GPLOG_Creative_EV0. GoPro promises more LUTs, which I bet will be EV-1 and EV-2. Hopefully the EV0 will provide better results with EV=0. Now users can choose to protect highlights rather than being forced to obtain more shadow detail (why would anyone do that except in horror movies?). 

[kye]

A proper LOG implementation would be even better.  That way it could be graded properly using colour management.  Now that Apple have shown what is possible with Apple Log, there's no denying that it's possible.

[markr041]

15 hours ago, kye said:

A proper LOG implementation would be even better.  That way it could be graded properly using colour management.  Now that Apple have shown what is possible with Apple Log, there's no denying that it's possible.

Could you explain what a "proper" log is? We are referring to a gamma curve. There is no standard "log" gamma: there is N-Log, Z-Log, S-Log,(2 and 3) M-Log, C-Log(2 and 3)  etc. - all different. And then there is GoPro's Log. What about it is any less "proper" than all these other "logs"? The only standard log gammas are those, for example, for HLG and HDR10 (PQ).

[kye]

6 hours ago, markr041 said:

Could you explain what a "proper" log is? We are referring to a gamma curve. There is no standard "log" gamma: there is N-Log, Z-Log, S-Log,(2 and 3) M-Log, C-Log(2 and 3)  etc. - all different. And then there is GoPro's Log. What about it is any less "proper" than all these other "logs"? The only standard log gammas are those, for example, for HLG and HDR10 (PQ).

A published technical specification that would allow it to be integrated into ACES RCM etc.

[markr041]

32 minutes ago, kye said:

A published technical specification that would allow it to be integrated into ACES RCM etc.

Ok, you are asking them to publish the specs so RCM can be used. I agree, so we can avoid LUTs. But that is not a criticism of the gamma itself. GoPro proper behavior, not proper gamma? On the GoPro Labs website a graph of the D-log gamma is shown; one could compute the math that fits that curve.

Btw, the DJI Pocket 3 D-Log M does not handle highlights very well; the Hero 11 and 12 G-Log does better. And a LUT is also needed for the D-log, since DJI does not reveal the specs. The LUT is supplied.

[kye]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

Ok, you are asking them to publish the specs so RCM can be used. I agree, so we can avoid LUTs. But that is not a criticism of the gamma itself. GoPro proper behavior, not proper gamma? On the GoPro Labs website a graph of the D-log gamma is shown; one could compute the math that fits that curve.

Btw, the DJI Pocket 3 D-Log M does not handle highlights very well; the Hero 11 and 12 G-Log does better. And a LUT is also needed for the D-log, since DJI does not reveal the specs. The LUT is supplied.

Two things are needed - the gamma and the colour space.  These are normally referred to in casual discussions as being only one thing, but they are completely independent and one cannot be inferred from the other.  

DJI should also publish the spec for their profiles too.

Hopefully the release of Apple Log and subsequent inclusion in the ACES and RCM ecosystem will inspire the other manufacturers to also start publishing their profiles.  Unfortunately, I don't think this is likely to be the case for all manufacturers, as some of the standards are not pretty and the standards documentation would point out those flaws quite explicitly.

[markr041]

Thanks again for your lecture as if the audience here is not aware of gamuts and gammas. But maybe there is someone who does not, and I am sure he is grateful for your post, however besides the point of this discussion.

You wanted a specification for the GoPro log gamma, a good idea. So, we were discussing gammas. The G-Log is using the REC709 color gamut, so that is not an issue for D-log, which is a gamma. Look it up. Slog is a gamma, C-Log is a gamma, N-Log is a gamma. Nothing to do with color space.

There is an issue with the WIDE color space of the GoPro (called 'Native" and bizarrely set in white balance), which does not conform to a standard (just like SGamut.cine etc.) and can be used with the Flat gamma or the G-Log gamma.. And I agree it would be nice to have the specs on that so one can transform it to standard, REC709 or maybe even approximately to REC2020.

And, yes, we need the same info for DJI's D-log, which, again, is only a gamma. when you select D-Log you get REC709 color. You can look it up.

Indeed, for the Pocket 3, one might be better off using the HLG choice, since that uses the standard HLG gamma and the standard REC2020 color space. You can look it up. Thus, one can use the transforms and do not need anyone' LUT.

[kye]

34 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Thanks again for your lecture as if the audience here is not aware of gamuts and gammas. But maybe there is someone who does not, and I am sure he is grateful for your post, however besides the point of this discussion.

You wanted a specification for the GoPro log gamma, a good idea. So, we were discussing gammas. The G-Log is using the REC709 color gamut, so that is not an issue for D-log, which is a gamma. Look it up. Slog is a gamma, C-Log is a gamma, N-Log is a gamma. Nothing to do with color space.

There is an issue with the WIDE color space of the GoPro (called 'Native" and bizarrely set in white balance), which does not conform to a standard (just like SGamut.cine etc.) and can be used with the Flat gamma or the G-Log gamma.. And I agree it would be nice to have the specs on that so one can transform it to standard, REC709 or maybe even approximately to REC2020.

And, yes, we need the same info for DJI's D-log, which, again, is only a gamma. when you select D-Log you get REC709 color. You can look it up.

Indeed, for the Pocket 3, one might be better off using the HLG choice, since that uses the standard HLG gamma and the standard REC2020 color space. You can look it up. Thus, one can use the transforms and do not need anyone' LUT.

I know of at least one group of professional colourists who are profiling some of these cameras themselves because the available information isn't sufficient to do proper transforms.  You might think all the information is there, but it's not.

I don't know enough about colour spaces to know why the information that's been provided isn't sufficient, but if it was then these transforms would have been built already and the professional colourists wouldn't be having to grade these files manually, or build their own transforms for them.

[markr041]

3 hours ago, kye said:

I know of at least one group of professional colourists who are profiling some of these cameras themselves because the available information isn't sufficient to do proper transforms.  You might think all the information is there, but it's not.

I don't know enough about colour spaces to know why the information that's been provided isn't sufficient, but if it was then these transforms would have been built already and the professional colourists wouldn't be having to grade these files manually, or build their own transforms for them.

I am not sure what you are adding.

Yes, there is no mathematical statement of the gamma, as I said, twice. And there is not diagram/math describing the area of the WIDE gamut, as I said (only once). Though the G-Log uses the REC709 color gamut as the default, which is known.

We do not need "professional colourists" to tell us what is missing, but I am very glad to hear you mingle with them, which I guess is the point of your post.

Professional colourist or not, it is very difficult to deal with an undescribed gamma and color gamut when color grading video and I agree with you, as I said twice, GoPro should be compelled to provide the information, given their evident commitment to having GoPro's used by filmmakers (who seem to use them anyway), so we can get proper transforms and not rely on amateur LUTs or ad hoc fiddling with color controls.

[kye]

Interesting and comprehensive analysis of GoPro from an economics / business point of view.  It's 43 minutes long, but is in plain English and well constructed.

It's interesting how they've managed to stabilise in the last few years and are now segmenting their lineup, which seems to be strategy that protects them from smartphones and other market pressures.

Pity they didn't do that a decade ago...