Panasonic G9 mk2

[kye]

10 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I'd rather see a GX800 with a mic jack, PDAF, and the G100's IBIS (all electronic which wasn't that bad). I don't like viewfinders on small cameras as they "just get in the way." Instead, give me a smaller body and bigger battery with a mic jack and PDAF. I'll be happy with that. It also provides more contrast in their lineup.

• S1H ii - video oriented, ultimate IQ with all the bells and whistles, high price
• S5 ii/iix- photo oriented, ulitimate IQ but not all the bells and whistles, bargain value
• GH7- video oriented, ultimate IQ with a crop with all the bells and whistles, high crop sensor price
• G9 ii- photo oriented, ulitimate IQ with a crop but not all the bells and whistles, decent crop sensor value
• G100, GX9 ii, GX850 ii- small video and photo camera with value features and excellent value.

If they make anything that anywhere close to the G9 ii in terms of size, they'll turn off people who want a small camera. It needs to me sub 350g which is really hard. People will expect full-sensor readout, 60fps with PDAF.

The real question is how cool can they make the G9 ii sensor as thermals will be key and probably the determining factor of the camera size. I'm ok with a fan in such a small body, but increase the size of the battery please- 250 shot CIPA minimum.

I have a strange relationship with the GX85, now that I've gotten sufficiently good at colour grading - I don't feel limited by it.  Of course, if they were to increase the DR, improve low-light performance, add 10-bit, etc etc, then I'd be happy, but I'm not chafing at the bit for those things.  

What I wouldn't mind though, is having a log profile.  And not a "V-Log L" style unsupported thing, I mean a real log profile that's supported with professional specifications.  Apple did it with a phone, so there's no excuses now.  They might need to add 10-bit for that, but so be it.

There is quite a bit of info about Panasonics future plans.

For example, this says that Panasonic has registered two new cameras, likely on higher end and one lower end:
https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-officially-registered-another-new-model-in-china-we-now-have-two-cameras-coming-soon/

This article from France suggests that they're selling well there, that although the compact camera market was crushed by covid, their sales are increasing due to competitors leaving the market segment, and that expert users prefer compact cameras with interchangeable lenses instead of expert compacts:

https://phototrend-fr.translate.goog/2023/10/interview-panasonic-salon-de-la-photo-2023/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

That's all hedging-our-bets marketing-speak of course, but it sounds to me like Panasonic might be keeping its eye on the compact market segment with the view to having a large share of a relatively small market.

We all know that smartphones ate the point-and-shoot fixed lens market, but interchangeable lens cameras will always have a huge advantage over smartphones in this regard, so I think there will always be demand of some sort.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

FYI, the G9ii's manual is 832 pages long. Is that a record of some sort?

The Resolve v18.1 manual is 4036 pages.  They're up to 18.6 so I'd say that one is longer still.

[Al Dolega]

I'd love to see an update to the LX100. Add IBIS and PDAF, maybe ruggedize the body a bit, more modern video specs, tilt screen, bam.

Maybe offer a vlog variant where the screen tilts but can also flip up over the top of the cam (like some of the RX100 versions do), with a 16-35 or 20-50 equiv lens.

[j_one]

1 hour ago, Al Dolega said:

I'd love to see an update to the LX100. Add IBIS and PDAF, maybe ruggedize the body a bit, more modern video specs, tilt screen, bam.

Maybe offer a vlog variant where the screen tilts but can also flip up over the top of the cam (like some of the RX100 versions do), with a 16-35 or 20-50 equiv lens.

With the success of the x100v, I wonder why there hasn't been a large sensor compact refresh from Panny. The LX100 ii was barely an update too, I just don't understand...its one of my favorite cameras.

[John Matthews]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I have a strange relationship with the GX85, now that I've gotten sufficiently good at colour grading - I don't feel limited by it.  Of course, if they were to increase the DR, improve low-light performance, add 10-bit, etc etc, then I'd be happy, but I'm not chafing at the bit for those things.

I wouldn't complain either. With all the smaller cameras, it's always a give and take. The masses are no longer going to be buying them; so, make us a camera with much better ergos but small. It must be possible:

For me, I don't want the flash, but keep the hot shoe. Also, I don't want the EVF, I'd prefer a better flip-up screen and making it smaller. Also, I don't like the camera strap attachments like that. I'd prefer the ones on the G9 ii/S5. In terms of IO, just give us a mic jack.

For key specs, I want full-sensor readout and PDAF. Don't need 60fps or even 120fps, but I wouldn't whine if were in there. The other specs are just fine for me, especially the shutter (1/250 sync).

Maybe that camera wouldn't sell very well, but I'd get it. OMDS came close with the E-P7, which was great, but mine broke and they're still too expensive used. They also cheaped out with no PDAF, and the sub-par plastics (it creaks when you hold it, but it's only 337g). The E-P7 had decent IBIS and controls (two usable dials on top). It has full-sensor readout too. It had 120fps at 1080p. No mic jack though.

For many, the lack of EVF is a no-go, but I just don't like the hesitation I have over which one to use. For me, less is more in this case.

38 minutes ago, j_one said:

With the success of the x100v, I wonder why there hasn't been a large sensor compact refresh from Panny. The LX100 ii was barely an update too, I just don't understand...its one of my favorite cameras.

Yes, we need more contrast in the Panasonic line-up. Big-bodied FF and M43 is not enough. We need core Panasonic features in a tiny body too.

4 hours ago, kye said:

We all know that smartphones ate the point-and-shoot fixed lens market, but interchangeable lens cameras will always have a huge advantage over smartphones in this regard, so I think there will always be demand of some sort.

At this point, I think they should just forget about the existence of camera phones- they won the bad ergonomics point and shoot market. Let's just make a camera that enthusiasts will buy. IMO, the problem with phones is ergos and there's no way around it or it will no longer be a phone. Anything they do to "make it better" for photographers will make it clunky and not sell to the masses. Inherently, phones and cameras are different devices, for the same reason cinema cameras and camcorders will always have an edge on hybrid cameras for video. Hybrid cameras will always have and edge on cinema cameras and camcorders for photos.

 

[John Matthews]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:48 PM, ac6000cw said:

According to the specs here https://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-mirrorless-cameras/lumix-g-cameras/dc-g9m2.html#specs yes, the G9ii does 120p in both UHD and C4k

I have a feeling I might reach as much as 28 minutes of 4k 120fps before the buffer even fills up. I reckon the G9ii has about 8gb of internal buffer (which is amazing).

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, j_one said:

With the success of the x100v, I wonder why there hasn't been a large sensor compact refresh from Panny.

They announced officially earlier this year they were moving out of the compact market, so unless they reverse what sounded like a very firm decision…

[kye]

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

For me, I don't want the flash, but keep the hot shoe. Also, I don't want the EVF, I'd prefer a better flip-up screen and making it smaller. Also, I don't like the camera strap attachments like that. I'd prefer the ones on the G9 ii/S5. In terms of IO, just give us a mic jack.

For key specs, I want full-sensor readout and PDAF. Don't need 60fps or even 120fps, but I wouldn't whine if were in there. The other specs are just fine for me, especially the shutter (1/250 sync).

Yeah, I don't need the flash, but without an audio input I also don't have a use for the hotshoe.  Of course, if they made a compact shotgun mic that used the hotshoe that would be spectacular!

The current sensor/processor can do 4K24/30 100Mbps and 1080p30/60 (20Mbps/28Mbps).  If they went with a newer sensor/processor then I can imagine it would be possible to support at least 4K24/30 and 1080p24/30/48/60 at a range of bitrates.  I'd like to see 4K at 200Mbps and 1080p at 50/100Mbps.  Currently if you record 60p at 28Mbps and conform it to 24p it's only 11.2Mbps - good luck suggesting that's adequate for anything in todays world.  48p is a mode that is very premium and only available on the highest-end cameras, which is sad.  Being able to shoot 48p with 360 degree shutter gives a super-smooth-looking 360-shutter 50% slow-motion footage, or completely standard 180-shutter 24p normal speed footage, and you get to decide which in post, rather than when you hit record.

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

At this point, I think they should just forget about the existence of camera phones- they won the bad ergonomics point and shoot market.

Tor the target market the ergonomics are spectacular.

Here's a comparison:

• Smartphone - open camera app, hit record.
• Point-and-shoot:
  • Did I leave it in the car?
  • Why is the battery flat?  Honey, I thought you charged it last time?
  • I thought you were bringing it.  You said you had it.  You ALWAYS do this.....

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

They announced officially earlier this year they were moving out of the compact market, so unless they reverse what sounded like a very firm decision…

Wasn't that the fixed-lens compact camera market?

That was my recollection.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering it though.  Let's hope not!!

[MrSMW]

39 minutes ago, kye said:

Wasn't that the fixed-lens compact camera market?

I remember it as ‘small sensor cameras full stop’ which was everything sub 4/3rds.

But could be wrong!

[John Matthews]

18 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I remember it as ‘small sensor cameras full stop’ which was everything sub 4/3rds.

But could be wrong!

59 minutes ago, kye said:

Wasn't that the fixed-lens compact camera market?

That was my recollection.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering it though.  Let's hope not!!

Doesn't anyone think there's a market for FF point and shoots? FF sensors are now cheaper than their M43 counterparts. It would make sense to make a 35-50mm f2 prime with a decent small and light body. I could totally see OMDS making this and it would sell if they get the marketing right... which they won't. Panasonic also could do it. The RX1 would have been a hit if it were cheaper and a little smaller.

[MrSMW]

Yup, I’d love a FF P&S around 40mm f2 please.

The thing is you can get a small body Sony A7RCii and stick a small fastish lens on it and have basically the same thing but with options…and I think that is part of the problem. The market probably is not big enough. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Doesn't anyone think there's a market for FF point and shoots? FF sensors are now cheaper than their M43 counterparts. It would make sense to make a 35-50mm f2 prime with a decent small and light body. I could totally see OMDS making this and it would sell if they get the marketing right... which they won't. Panasonic also could do it. The RX1 would have been a hit if it were cheaper and a little smaller.

Size will be the problem...

These are both 40mm FOVs.

Sure, the MFT is 20mm F1.7, which is about one stop deeper DoF but that's the slowest 40mm prime Sony make.

I actually don't care about the sensor size anymore, the FX3 is quite a small camera, the issue is that the lenses just aren't.

13 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Yup, I’d love a FF P&S around 40mm f2 please.

The thing is you can get a small body Sony A7RCii and stick a small fastish lens on it and have basically the same thing but with options…and I think that is part of the problem. The market probably is not big enough. 

It might be big enough, assuming you can position it as anything other than a FF camera with a lens glued on the front that you can't change.  It has to be seen as a creative limitation, as something MORE elegant and creative, rather than just limiting.

I've seen people talk about cameras like the Leicas like that, and the Ricoh ones too, but I'm not sure that companies like Sony could pull off that kind of perception shift.

[ac6000cw]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:59 AM, John Matthews said:

So what I was saying earlier about a correlation between pixel density and moiré is true. The less space there is between pixels, the less chance of moiré. In this case, 12k capture is better than 4k when it comes to moiré.

On the G100, it really sucked for 1080p moiré at precisely the distance one would vlog at. Go back 50 cm and moiré would be gone due to the frequency of the patterns. I imagine the GX80/85 has a similar problem in 1080p.

 

On 10/26/2023 at 9:27 AM, kye said:

I don't think it works that way though.  A 12K sensor would be sensitive to moire if there were repeating patterns that happened to align with the gaps between the pixels, just like a 4K sensor.  

It might be that common causes of moire are around a certain size and therefore impact one combination of sensor resolution / sensor size / and focal length more than other combinations.  Also, lower resolution sensors might be more prone to moire as they're typically older and there were larger gaps between the pixels than there are now.

Lower resolutions are likely to have issues on cheaper cameras too, due to the camera line skipping and therefore effectively creating very large gaps between the active pixels.  

Sadly, there's lots of different ways to create moire, and many of them tend to come from strategies to make the product more affordable!

The older Sony APS-C cameras like the A6500/A6600 are/were terrible for moire in 1080p - this is a DPreview 'video still' test chart comparison of GH5, GX85, G95 and A6600 at 1080p - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr29_0=panasonic_dcgh5&attr29_1=panasonic_dmcgx85&attr29_2=sony_a6600&attr29_3=panasonic_dcg95&attr72_0=1080&attr72_1=1080&attr72_2=1080&attr72_3=1080&normalization=full&widget=494&x=-0.4377130790929456&y=0.008264403455490291

(The GH5 shows how sensor to video processing should be done, the A6600 shows how not to do it!)

In modern 'stills' cameras based in Bayer pattern sensors, the moire is basically caused by the large gaps between the different colour sites, so you get serious colour aliasing (when there's no effective OLPF in front of the sensor) if the light pattern happens to match the photosites of a single (R, G or B) colour.

From https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5209-what-really-causes-moire-in-cameras :

[kye]

9 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

(The GH5 shows how sensor to video processing should be done, the A6600 shows how not to do it!)

The 6600 does not have an OLPF, and the moire is present the moment the light is collected on the sensor.  Once that happens there's nothing you can really do to get rid of it.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, ac6000cw said:

The older Sony APS-C cameras like the A6500/A6600 are/were terrible for moire in 1080p - this is a DPreview 'video still' test chart comparison of GH5, GX85, G95 and A6600 at 1080p

I'm fairly certain all these cameras will have moiré patterns at some point whether it be 1080p, 4k, or 6k. The only difference is how visible it becomes and if you can recognize it on playback. The worst of patterns can also be controlled by understanding the frequencies with each lens and the fabrics and buildings causing them. This is a huge topic and merits considerable discussion. I still believe AI should/must "correct" it automatically. Many would pay for that.

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, kye said:

The 6600 does not have an OLPF, and the moire is present the moment the light is collected on the sensor. 

This is the same comparison with 4k video - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=panasonic_dcgh5&attr13_1=panasonic_dmcgx85&attr13_2=sony_a6600&attr13_3=panasonic_dcg95&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=200&attr16_1=200&attr16_2=200&attr16_3=200&attr171_1=1&normalization=full&widget=478&x=-0.5653754912361596&y=-0.0730609051110552

...and this with still images (same test image and same cameras, so same sensors and filters) - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=panasonic_dcgh5&attr13_1=panasonic_dmcgx85&attr13_2=sony_a6600&attr13_3=panasonic_dcg95&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=200&attr16_1=200&attr16_2=200&attr16_3=200&attr171_1=1&normalization=full&widget=478&x=-0.5653754912361596&y=-0.0730609051110552

Note the A6600 moire is much reduced in 4k video and is almost non-existent in stills mode.

So the bad 1080p moire on the A6600 isn't coming from "the moire is present the moment the light is collected on the sensor" (which would show up in stills mode), it's being caused by the way data from the photosites is being collected, sub-sampled and processed. I suspect the image data used for 1080p video on the A6600 is being line/pixel skipped on sensor or as it's read out from the sensor and then de-bayered. The GX85 and G95 1080p is probably pixel-binned on-sensor, so it's better but has some moire, whereas the GH5 generates 1080p by reading the data and de-bayering it at high resolution then resamples it (using super-sampling) down to 1080p.

1 hour ago, kye said:

Once that happens there's nothing you can really do to get rid of it.

I agree - although I think some cameras/manufacturers do a better/cleverer job of minimising it at the de-bayering stage

[John Matthews]

10 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

So the bad 1080p moire on the A6600 isn't coming from "the moire is present the moment the light is collected on the sensor" (which would show up in stills mode), it's being caused by the way data from the photosites is being collected, sub-sampled and processed. I suspect the image data used for 1080p video on the A6600 is being line/pixel skipped on sensor or as it's read out from the sensor and then de-bayered. The GX85 and G95 1080p is probably pixel-binned on-sensor, so it's better but has some moire, whereas the GH5 generates 1080p by reading the data and de-bayering it at high resolution then resamples it (using super-sampling) down to 1080p.

I've never seen it on the GH5 and GH6, but it'll happen for sure. I even posted it happening on the G9ii which probably uses the same methods in 5.7K.

My understanding of the GX85/G95/GX850 is that don't pixel bin 1080p; rather they average pixels together to make a 1080p image- the results are usually better than pixel binning, but they also have it. With those cameras (especially in 50fps/60fps), the camera is smart enough to recognize it and eliminate the magenta colors that are associated with moiré, making it far less noticeable but still present.

Also, on the DpReview charts, the only camera that I've seen that doesn't do it (on their charts/frequencies) is the OG Sony A7s.

[kye]

19 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Note the A6600 moire is much reduced in 4k video and is almost non-existent in stills mode.

In those modes the sensors resolution is higher and the chart doesn't have fine enough lines to create moire.

It does indicate that the Sony isn't using the full sensor resolution in its 1080p mode though.  This isn't a surprise, the GH5 employs full readouts and high quality image scaling internally, whereas inferior cameras don't.

[ac6000cw]

18 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I'm fairly certain all these cameras will have moiré patterns at some point whether it be 1080p, 4k, or 6k. 

I agree, but some are better at minimising the impact of it e.g. like the GX85/G95/GX850 you mentioned above. Moire in 1080p is more noticeable on the Oly E-M1 ii & iii than on those, despite having a higher-res sensor (and noticeably soft 1080p video).

[John Matthews]

16 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I agree, but some are better at minimising the impact of it e.g. like the GX85/G95/GX850 you mentioned above. Moire in 1080p is more noticeable on the Oly E-M1 ii & iii than on those, despite having a higher-res sensor (and noticeably soft 1080p video).

The E-m1 ii also has a higher bitrate. The E-M5 ii was catastrophic for moiré. I'd take any of the Panasonic's over the Sony's and Olympus's. Interestingly, the GH2 had a better response to moiré patterns than the GX85/G95/GX850/G100 due to its OLPF, but it still had it (just not at the same frequencies).  Here's a screen shot crop of the type of moiré on my GX800, shot in 50fps. I was making a jack 0'lantern with my daughter. On my jeans, you see the pattern, but all the magenta was removed.

[ac6000cw]

10 minutes ago, kye said:

In those modes the sensors resolution is higher and the chart doesn't have fine enough lines to create moire

No - the base sensor resolution is the same, it's how the data is read out from the photo sites and processed that changes in different modes. If you sub-sample a digital image to reduce it's resolution without low-pass filtering it first (to keep the frequencies under the Nyquist limit), you'll get aliasing-related artifacts (like moire) at some point dependent on the image content.

Video (and film) suffers from temporal aliasing as well, which we reduce by introducing motion blur (a form of low-pass filtering).