Panasonic G9 mk2

[bonzcruzez]

It's a necessary evil, as it's required to make the camera competitive in the specs race that people seem to care more about, but we really are continuing to get further and further away from the promise of M43.

[BTM_Pix]

11 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Which has strange design choices, including 1 card slot that is "(UHS-I) Micro SD".

It is certainly an "interesting" choice thats for sure and its a bit like a car having one of those skinny spare tyres.

They tick the "does it have two card slots" box but open up the newer question of "are they both adequate though?".

My Leica T has internal memory which is a boon as it gives you extra storage space if you fill the card up but also provides you with security against the "oh shit I've left the SD card in the reader at home" which I have actually done !

Absent of new cameras offering the same internal storage (and why not by the way) and trying to keep the size down then its a pragmatic choice but it is heavily dependent on the real world requirements of the files its generating and how the implementation is in terms of control.

What is the minimum write speed for h265 10 bit 4K would be the obvious question.

Is there a sufficient buffer in the camera to be able to offload at the slower speed (a pre-capture in reverse) ?

Background copying from the SD to the MicroSD to make it a managed overflow option?

Foreground copying from the SD to the MicroSD?

Jpegs to the MicroSD and RAWs to the SD?

When all that is known then we can move it from "strange and also silly" (which on the face of it would be the case) to a best case of "strange but yeah OK its workable".

In terms of strangeness though, it still isn't in the same ballpark as the fundamental one of putting a small sensor in a full frame body 😉

 

 

 

 

[Davide DB]

If the goal is to renovate all the cameras....

They started with the FF line. They probably were not ready for the flagship so they started with the entry level S5 model (perhaps the best selling).

They revamped the older flagship G9. In my opinion even if they had started with the GH6 the result would not have changed in terms of total destruction of sales of the other models.

Following this logic, the next step could be:

- a new PDAF machine in the rangefinder line (GX80 etc.) OR even in the smallest line, LX10 or LX100.

- new SH1x II flagships with PDAF

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Following this logic, the next step could be:

- a new PDAF machine in the rangefinder line (GX80 etc.) OR even in the smallest line, LX10 or LX100.

I'd certainly welcome any of those although with the latter two I'm not sure Panasonic are interested in anything compact with an integrated lens any more in view of this quote from them last summer :

"We've halted developing any new models that can be replaced by a smartphone"

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-trends/Panasonic-Nikon-quit-developing-low-end-compact-digital-cameras#:~:text="We've halted developing any,for photography enthusiasts and professionals.

The tie in with Leica which they re-affirmed last year would probably preclude them from producing anything fixed lens wise either to not tread on the Q line.

Speaking of which....

23 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

- new SH1x II flagships with PDAF

The Leica Q3 does point the way to what one of those might have spec wise, certainly the 8K aspect.

The re-affirmation of their tie up last year as referenced in that piece above says they are jointly developing a new mirrorless camera and I'd suspect that the Q3 is the fixed lens version of that and the mark 2 versions of the S1 will be the first interchangeable lens versions of it, followed by the SL3.

 

[Davide DB]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'd certainly welcome any of those although with the latter two I'm not sure Panasonic are interested in anything compact with an integrated lens any more in view of this quote from them last summer :

"We've halted developing any new models that can be replaced by a smartphone"

I agree with you except for the LX10 and LX100.

They are not cameras that fall into the category that can be replaced by a smarphone.

There is the whole audience of Youtubers/vloggers and both Sony and Canon have recently dropped machines aimed at this group of users. Basically a compact with perfect AF and good microphones.

Speaking of my niche: Sony has sold tons of RX100s (seven generations) widely used as compact solutions for underwater shooting. Panasonic proved that both the LX10 and 100 were far superior for underwater use but then they became obsolete and left completely the market to Sony and Olympus.

There are a lot of people who still use them with great satisfaction and would welcome an updated version that also competes with the newly released Olympus TG7 (another best-selling camera).

In short, it is true that smartphones have eaten a chunk of the market but there are niches where there is still great demand for more specialized tools.

Do all these users who buy action cams die with gopros or should they go straight to an R5C?

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

I agree with you except for the LX10 and LX100.

They are not cameras that fall into the category that can be replaced by a smarphone.

I'm only reporting it, not agreeing with it as my own position.

The LX10 and LX100 are not to you or I or anyone else on here that owns them something that a smartphone can replace like for like of course.

But to the wider public, the ship has sailed for virtually all of them that might have bought a compact camera as they are happy enough with their phones.

Thats the position that Panasonic are taking.

Funnily enough, in the past couple of months, I have offered my daughter both my LX10 and LX100 when she has gone on trips to places that I have thought merited more than a phone but she's been "thanks but no thanks".

We are going to Tokyo at the end of next week and I've upped my loan offer to my Sigma Fp or Leica T but she is still not interested.

I don't think she is an outlier either, even though she is over 30 so she has grown up around "real cameras"  from my work, let alone what anyone 25 and under must be like.

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

There is the whole audience of Youtubers/vloggers and both Sony and Canon have recently dropped machines aimed at this group of users. Basically a compact with perfect AF and good microphones.

What is the demographic at the present time for YouTubers though?

I'm guessing its nowhere near as youthful as it once was and far more affluent too.

TikTok is where the younger generation are and they have grown up without "real" cameras.

They don't mind paying €1500 for a phone that they can run their entire life on (particularly as they all pay monthly for it anyway) but dropping that amount on a camera that brings them a marginal gain as they would see it is a tough sell.

Before we even get to the aspect of whether the current financial climate makes that even viable.

The distance from capture to audience is absolutely minimal and that is something that camera manufacturers have failed to grasp and act upon.

I've said it on here before but even with the absolutely fastest cameras, highly optimised workflow with the fastest cards, readers, computers, transmission infrastructure etc then by the time I'd got an image edited and away onto newspapers and published (even online let alone the printed versions) from pitch side was glacially slow compared to the kid sat behind me on the terraces with his iPhone.

Real cameras are just not equipped to compete with that and with the dwindling attention span of the creators and the consumers it just doesn't appeal to them.

YouTube content was too long so they went to YouTube shorts and now that is too long they're on TikTok.

And its worth bearing in mind that actual "content creation" as we would describe it is a niche anyway so longer form, more thoughtful, content is now a niche within that niche.

Requests for advice about getting a camera from my family or friends that even 5-7 years ago were still pretty frequent have now dwindled to absolutely nil. This could be because of the terrible advice I gave them but that is another matter and I'm sure they would all be happy with those Sigma DP2-Ms if only they concentrated on technique a bit more 🙂 

I'm not advocating what Panasonic have done with leaving the compact market but I do understand it.

Camera manufacturers did themselves absolutely no favours in terms of compact cameras by the obsession they all shared over not giving cameras like the GX80, RX100, LX100 etc etc a microphone input.

 

[MrSMW]

23 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

But to the wider public, the ship has sailed for virtually all of them that might have bought a compact camera as they are happy enough with their phones.

 

As someone who lives half his life at weddings, I can assure 'you' (ie, folks in general) it is extremely rare to see a guest toting anything resembling a camera at a wedding and it's been that way for quite some years now.

I might see the odd 60+ year old guest fumbling with an old DSLR or the occasional hipster with something Fuji flavoured, but otherwise nada, it's wall to wall phones and if they are not taking snaps with them, they are gazing at them for whatever enlightenment they individually receive from these devices.

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

"We've halted developing any new models that can be replaced by a smartphone"

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-trends/Panasonic-Nikon-quit-developing-low-end-compact-digital-cameras#:~:text="We've halted developing any,for photography enthusiasts and professionals.

"The company has not released any new product for the price range below 50,000 yen ($370 at current rates) or so since 2019 and has no plans to develop a low-priced model going forward. "We've halted developing any new models that can be replaced by a smartphone," a spokesperson said.

... These companies are following in rivals' footsteps. Fujifilm has discontinued production of its FinePix compact cameras and will develop only the X100V series and other pricier models."

Canon has not released any new Ixy cameras since 2017. But the company acknowledges that "entry-level models continue to enjoy persistent support, so we'll continue development and production as long as there is demand." 

Sony Group has not offered any new compact models under its Cyber-shot brand since 2019, although a spokesperson said that "it's not that we'll stop developing new products." Casio Computer halted production of Exilim cameras in 2018.

Camera makers had long competed with one another by increasing the number of pixels and by shrinking the size of their devices. But then smartphones came along, offering apps for editing pictures and allowing photos to be easily shared with family and friends. This changed the way people took photos.

Smartphone makers are racing to offer advanced photography features in their devices. "It'd be a challenge for camera makers to be successful with keeping their compact digital camera businesses," said analyst Ichiro Michikoshi of research firm BCN.

Compact digital models accounted for 36% of global digital camera shipments in 2021, according to CIPA. The broader camera market will likely shrink even faster with Japanese companies, many of them big players, scaling back operations in compact digital models.

The bright spot is the mirrorless segment, with global shipments jumping 31% on the year to 324.5 billion yen in 2021. Mirrorless single-lens models offer fat margins, and users replacing lenses and other parts will keep contributing to the manufacturers' bottom lines.

Retailers are focusing on this segment as well. "These days we recommend mirrorless cameras even to novice photographers," said a salesperson at electronics and appliance retailer Joshin Denki."

 

 

I am guessing the reference is to point and shoot cameras, with fixed lenses, including the LX100 family. If Panasonic feels the GX and GM do indeed have a market, and they can profit from them (maybe with price increases), they may add some to that group. Strangely the Japanese are not really good at very quick turnarounds, and making products at lower manufacturing costs. Two reasons why they aren't the top players in the smartphone industry.

It's therefore a strange conundrum. They don't wanna integrate absolute smartphone features likes 4G and 5G chips for uploading data on ILCs. And Sony has been slowing its development of ILC replacing smartphones, by not pushing 1inch and larger sensors (they have a massively cropped 1inch sensors). Sony is arguably one of the hurdles for both Smartphones replacing ILCs, and in some ways possibly causing sensor development (like not giving PDAF to Panasonic) slowdown in Pro and Prosumer Cameras. 

 

I wanna write more, but I have to rush. 

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

But to the wider public, the ship has sailed for virtually all of them that might have bought a compact camera as they are happy enough with their phones.

Thats the position that Panasonic are taking.

 

59 minutes ago, sanveer said:

"The company has not released any new product for the price range below 50,000 yen ($370 at current rates) or so since 2019 and has no plans to develop a low-priced model going forward. "We've halted developing any new models that can be replaced by a smartphone," a spokesperson said.

... These companies are following in rivals' footsteps. Fujifilm has discontinued production of its FinePix compact cameras and will develop only the X100V series and other pricier models."

Canon has not released any new Ixy cameras since 2017. But the company acknowledges that "entry-level models continue to enjoy persistent support, so we'll continue development and production as long as there is demand." 

Sony Group has not offered any new compact models under its Cyber-shot brand since 2019, although a spokesperson said that "it's not that we'll stop developing new products." Casio Computer halted production of Exilim cameras in 2018.

I agree but quoting the last excerpt from Nikkei article, they are speaking of a different segment: Finepix, Cyber-shot they are real point & shot camera. Just look at Sony:

RX100 VII suggested retail price: 1300€

ZV-1 II suggested retail price 1000€

ZV-E10 (ILC) suggested retail price: 800€ (here we are in the GM range)

The above are not P&S camera and in that segment that Panasonic left a whole market to its competitor. And thinking to Andrew's post it's the format/size where M43 should be king.

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I might see the odd 60+ year old guest fumbling with an old DSLR

I feel seen !

The last wedding I went to a few months ago had announced a complete ban on posting pictures online and as a consequence no one took any pictures at all, presumably because if they weren't able to post them in semi-real time then they had no value at all.

As a consequence, the only person that had any images at all was this old duffer.

I tell a lie, there was one person who ignored it which was the groom's sister who took the position that her brother and new sister-in-law aren't exactly Jay Z and Beyonce so there was no embargo with Hello magazine to honour. 

 

 

[Emanuel]

Always entertaining to read your posts... : ) in the most unusual thread about something as distinct as these ramblings on camera business practices ;- )

[BTM_Pix]

6 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I agree but quoting the last excerpt from Nikkei article, they are speaking of a different segment: Finepix, Cyber-shot they are real point & shot camera.

The quote is from Panasonic themselves, it is the writer that is making an illustrative comparison with the Fuji and Sony models so I'm not sure a conclusion can be drawn from that.

It is more complicated with Panasonic because unlike those two with FinePix and CyberShot or Canon with Powershot etc, they don't have a differently named sub-brand.

Lumix is the name whether its the LX10 or the S1-H so it makes it less clear cut what exactly it is they are stopping doing compared to, say, Sony announcing they are stopping all CyberShot models.

The proof of the pudding will be in if they make anything other than an interchangeable lens camera again as I suspect that is what they are referring to.

They have also walked away from a successor to the king of their fixed lens cameras which is the FZ2000/2500, which is a great shame.

 

[fuzzynormal]

Started by buying an EM5 cuz it was small.  Then Bought a GX7 cuz it was small.  Bought a GM1 cuz it was small.  Bought two GH1's cuz they are small.  Bought an EM5II cuz it was small.  Bought two Gx8's cuz they were small.  Bought an EM10iii cuz it was small.

Bought GH4's and Gh5's along the way as well.  They are not small.

I like the smaller cameras better in my hand.   Too bad the small cams didn't have the same features/specs.  Andrew is onto something by saying there was a missed market there.  At least in my world that market exists.

Doesn't take too much to wonder if OM can make a run at that market with trying to niche their way through the wildlife photographers. M43 for super long lens stuff is a relatively small kit.  (Not the body, however, but the lens)  Is it enough to keep the format viable?  Probably not, but here's hoping.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

9 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

When all that is known then we can move it from "strange and also silly" (which on the face of it would be the case) to a best case of "strange but yeah OK its workable".

 

For me, was this case. Not as good as two SDs, but much better than a single one.
Caveat: looks like the MicroSD could only storage photos, not video. For stills, all the usual options are available.

A Nikon guy on Gerald I'mdone told a very plausible story: cameras with big grips put the battery sideways inside the grip, leaving room on the body for circuitry / IBIS, and the two SD slot could go on the other side. In this camera, since it would have no big grip, the battery is inside the body and there is no room for the two SD cards. But the SD and the Micro could be fitted next to the battery with almost the same space as a single card slot.

And this is not meant to be a "professional" camera, if it had a single slot, nobody would find it strange - as in the A7CII.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

Bought an EM5II cuz it was small

I ran a pair of those for a season for my video needs alongside my stills work.

Great little cameras but suffered a bit in low light and that is my biggest issue with 4/3...

[fuzzynormal]

39 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I ran a pair of those for a season for my video needs alongside my stills work.

Great little cameras but suffered a bit in low light and that is my biggest issue with 4/3...

Indeed.  I couldn't even push it to 3200 without worry.  Had a fast lens with a speed booster to take it as wide open as possible, but then you suffer from the glass making things soft and mushy, so the struggle was real.

Always a trade off.  

Regardless, having small cameras for docs is default mode for me.  Not a fan of demanding attention with big gear when you're trying to get intimate; still a bit amazed when I see industry folks being okay with a lot of gak on location for a documentary.  

[kye]

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Do all these users who buy action cams die with gopros or should they go straight to an R5C?

Great point.  Even an average MFT camera with a 7-8mm lens absolutely slaughters a GoPro once the sun dips below the horizon or you go inside a building.  

9 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Funnily enough, in the past couple of months, I have offered my daughter both my LX10 and LX100 when she has gone on trips to places that I have thought merited more than a phone but she's been "thanks but no thanks".

Camera manufacturers haven't just dropped the ball on the whole usability front, they were in a cafe with their friends pretending they were sophisticated and didn't even know there was a game being played at all.  Needless to say, they got left behind.

The workflow from any ILC camera for any amount of money is stone-age and has stayed that way.  In pure economic terms they all deserve to die out completely.  Obviously I hope that isn't the case, but yeah, your daughter isn't wrong.

9 hours ago, sanveer said:

Mirrorless single-lens models offer fat margins, and users replacing lenses and other parts will keep contributing to the manufacturers' bottom lines.

It's probably a translation error, but if there's "Mirrorless single-lens models" then where are the mirrorless multi-lens models??

Dear god would I be tempted by a camera with two MFT sensors and lens mounts!  I'd put the 12-35mm F2.8 on one and the 7.5mm F2 on the other and I'd never miss a shot ever again!  Size be damned!

8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I feel seen !

The last wedding I went to a few months ago had announced a complete ban on posting pictures online and as a consequence no one took any pictures at all, presumably because if they weren't able to post them in semi-real time then they had no value at all.

As a consequence, the only person that had any images at all was this old duffer.

I tell a lie, there was one person who ignored it which was the groom's sister who took the position that her brother and new sister-in-law aren't exactly Jay Z and Beyonce so there was no embargo with Hello magazine to honour. 

The school that the kids go to puts up signs on their events that says photography is allowed, but no-one can post a photo of any kid that isn't theirs online without written permission from their parents.  Combine that with the low-light situation and good luck with your smart phones now......

[IronFilm]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:44 AM, ac6000cw said:

IIRC, around the time of the GH6 release (18 months ago), there was live stream/press discussion with some senior Panasonic people, where one of them basically said that including PDAF hardware on the sensor would have delayed the sensor development too much (for the GH6 timescale). 

So my take on it is the sensor in the G9ii is effectively the 'fully developed' version of it, and the GH6 has an intermediate version without the PDAF hardware capability. I think it would have been commercially crazy to not launch the GH6 with PDAF if they could have - they'd have sold more in the intervening months at higher street prices.

We'll have to wait and see, but I think there just has to be a GH6ii or GH7 soon.

I agree, the release of the G9mk2 with PDAF hints at the fact that there will be either a GH6mk2 (basically identical to the GH6, but with PDAF) or a GH7! (maybe even both)

If it is a GH6mk2 then it will be "soon" (maybe this year?? At least, "within a year" for sure), if it is a GH7 then it will probably be a bit further away when it happens. 

Hopefully it will be both? Like what happened with the GH5mk2 / GH6

My hope is they'll surprise us with the GH6mk2 (that adds PDAF, but otherwise makes zero changes to the GH6mk1) and at the same time as they release the GH6mk2 they say that the GH7 is "in development" together with some ground breaking features. (mini SDI, mini XLR, six channel recording, and eNDs pretty please! We could easily fit all this into a S1H sized body for the GH7) 

[MrSMW]

23 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

If it is a GH6mk2 then it will be "soon" (maybe this year??

But then surely that eats the G9ii’s lunch as to most people’s eyes, it will be ‘the same camera’ but just with a slightly different body.

I’m not really sure what Panasonic is thinking here…

The GH line is supposed to be the more video one and the G9 the more photo one, but really, what difference is there?

The line’s have got blurred I think and maybe it’s because everyone is trying to be ‘hybrid’ now but the market for all types of cameras is shrinking?

Meanwhile, everyone under the sun is bringing out their own set of compact cine lenses.

 

[D4cl00]

To me the perfect embodiment of the four-thirds mount was actually the original Blackmagic Pocket Cinema camera, which technically speaking was only using the mount but equipped with a smaller sensor. The only true ‘pocket cinema’ in my book.

That camera was so much fun shooting.

It was imperfect, having to change the damn battery every 15 minutes, amongst other quirks and limitations. But the shooting *experience* was completely different from other cameras because it left out anything else and the interface was simple. 
The footage felt very…organic. Something I haven’t seen in their later products. Not sure what it is.

I used it often in combination with a pancake lens while having the flexibility to mount other lenses.

I have 4 lenses collecting dust (and a broken GH5 which died when I forgot to turn it off, using it as a webcam).

Why is no company making a new version of this concept? It’ll be optically superior to a phone.