Sony Burano : a groundbreaking cinema camera

[kye]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I can.

My project for 2024.

To make stills from video files?

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, kye said:

To make stills from video files?

Yes.

Kind of torn about it though as 50% of what I do is photography and is pulling stills from video still photography?

Rhetorical, personal question really and one for another thread as it’s a complex topic, but yes, in 2024, whether it’s with L Mount or someone else, I want to at least explore the possibility beyond the 4K I have tried it at.

[MrSMW]

13 hours ago, Kino said:

These are video frame stills if you can believe it!

What is the source of these if you would be so kind?

[kye]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Yes.

Kind of torn about it though as 50% of what I do is photography and is pulling stills from video still photography?

Rhetorical, personal question really and one for another thread as it’s a complex topic, but yes, in 2024, whether it’s with L Mount or someone else, I want to at least explore the possibility beyond the 4K I have tried it at.

Is it still photography?

I think it depends on how pedantic your definition of 'photography' is.  However, considering that the original definition would have involved exposing a chemical film for later chemical processing, I'd say that almost any definition that includes capturing a still image on a modern digital camera would also include pulling stills from video.

If you really wanted the definition to draw a line between stills and video then you're going to have to work out how to make it:

• include 24+ fps burst mode as photography and not videography
• include the photo mode of the iPhone as photography when the iPhone takes a burst of images and sound, does computational photography to create a still image from them, and saves a "Live" image which is essentially a short video with sound

So yeah, good luck with that!

[Kino]

12 hours ago, MrSMW said:

What is the source of these if you would be so kind?

I've been collecting these A1 frames for months on different platforms! I'll try my best . . .

 

The night still frames from Japan are all from TeemusPhoto (above). He has shot many videos with the A1. You can look on his channel for more of where that came from.

Many images were taken from Mina Rhodes's work with the A1 here in L.A.:

 

[MrSMW]

@Kino appreciate it 👍🙏👊

[Django]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:19 AM, MrSMW said:

Yes.

Kind of torn about it though as 50% of what I do is photography and is pulling stills from video still photography?

Rhetorical, personal question really and one for another thread as it’s a complex topic, but yes, in 2024, whether it’s with L Mount or someone else, I want to at least explore the possibility beyond the 4K I have tried it at.

I've been enjoying extracting stills from recent 8K shoots with the R5. But no I don't see it as photography even if the end viewer may not notice the difference. The shooting process just isn't the same and things like slow/fast exposure or flash photography just aren't really doable. And for people like me that mostly shoot vertical portrait pics, extracting stills from a  horizontal 16:9 / DCI clip isn't going to give me that. But that's where open-gate comes in clutch. Sadly no Sony/CaNikon offers it yet. Actually virtually no open-gate 8K cams out there aside from a few pricey cine cams.

More and more 6K open-gate options though. Especially in L-mount!

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, Django said:

I've been enjoying extracting stills from recent 8K shoots with the R5. But no I don't see it as photography even if the end viewer may not notice the difference. The shooting process just isn't the same and things like slow/fast exposure or flash photography just aren't really doable. And for people like me that mostly shoot vertical portrait pics, extracting stills from a  horizontal 16:9 / DCI clip isn't going to give me that. But that's where open-gate comes in clutch. Sadly no Sony/CaNikon offers it yet. Actually virtually no open-gate 8K cams out there aside from a few pricey cine cams.

More and more 6K open-gate options though. Especially in L-mount!

Well since we are talking about it then…😉

Yep, anything that isn’t 3:2 or even 4:3, wouldn’t cut it for me other than perhaps 8k 16:9, because of cropping for portrait format.

I don’t use flash, instead using only available or constant so not such an issue for me and quite happy to shoot faster shutter speeds.

But is it photography? IMO, no. Or at least not my definition of it and that’s what I am wrestling with… Not the definition, but whether I could trade a better on the day capture process ONLY doing video, but with the trade off being a somewhat tedious process of pulling 500+ stills per job.

I’m thinking maybe I would not be happy with that as one of my favourite parts of my photography work is editing images.

As of today at least, I’m now thinking of the 2 options open to me,

A. being, invest in 6k 50p tech to pull stills or

B. stay as is, shooting both and invest in a better stills camera than the one I have now.

On balance, I am more interested in B.

I think it’s more me and with a future career in it’s final 1/3rd, maybe I’ll just see my time out with what already works..

[gt3rs]

From a 8K you get a portrait 3:4 image of almost 14 Mpixels, a vertical 9:16 video slightly above 4k. 
From a 45 Mpixels 3:2 photo you get a 3:4 22.5 Mpixels portrait one.

For my uses cases I rarely take pictures in portrait mode as I can give two versions instead of one by shooting landscape. For the video I never shot vertically as most vertical video are for social media anyway and 4k is more than adequate. I found framing in post vertical video it gives me more control. Btw I hate vertical video but I'm just too old 🙂  

Never the less why no 3:2 open gate RAW !?!

Or although I understand is much more complex why no square sensors (I know then square EVF, square LCD, incompatibility with many lenses etc...). Gopro and Insta started to get this right in some of their cameras... 

[MrSMW]

24 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

why no square sensors

It makes perfect sense to me that ALL sensors today, other than that intended for cinema/TV should be square because then best of both worlds!

Just set up custom overlays on the screen and it's easy to see what is possible from any scene.

With my photography hat on, I'd MUCH prefer to shoot this way without having to continually rotate the camera physically, but see the projected result/cropping on the screen instead.

[kye]

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Or although I understand is much more complex why no square sensors (I know then square EVF, square LCD, incompatibility with many lenses etc...). Gopro and Insta started to get this right in some of their cameras... 

I completely disagree.

People watch widescreen content on 40" or 50" or 60" or 70+" TVs at home, but only watch vertical video on sub-7"displays.

Putting equal effort into both is ridiculous.

[MrSMW]

That is also true, though I would expect to see more larger vertical video in the future for the simple reason that we are becoming increasingly used to using these smaller devices in the vertical orientation, that it makes sense (to me anyway) that by the time we get to Bladerunner 2049 times, more devices such as tablets and laptops etc, plus video advertising, will be taller than it is wide.

A square 8k or even 6k sensor would still suit my needs very well!

[Tim Sewell]

9 hours ago, kye said:

I completely disagree.

People watch widescreen content on 40" or 50" or 60" or 70+" TVs at home, but only watch vertical video on sub-7"displays.

Putting equal effort into both is ridiculous.

An increasing amount of advertising content is now shown on large, vertical screens in public spaces so, although we might find it distasteful, it's definitely a thing.

[kye]

2 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

An increasing amount of advertising content is now shown on large, vertical screens in public spaces so, although we might find it distasteful, it's definitely a thing.

Sure.  Just get an L adapter and mount the camera sideways.  BM cameras even detect the orientation and rotate their GUI.

If they insist on having UHD vertical and also use the horizontal then shoot horizontally in 8K.

If they insist on having greater than UHD vertically and also want horizontal video then:
1) ask a few probing questions to make sure they're not crazy, or the customer from hell, or both
2) ask them what the hell they're going to be displaying these ads on
3) rent a UMP12K - it's only a few hundred for a weeks rental, and your bizarrely spec obsessed customer should be fine paying extra for their unfathomable lust for superfluous resolution after you tell them the spectacular specs of the camera

There's no reason to adjust every camera known to man to an aspect ratio that almost no-one will ever use, in order to avoid renting a camera for the specific purpose.

[gt3rs]

13 hours ago, kye said:

I completely disagree.

People watch widescreen content on 40" or 50" or 60" or 70+" TVs at home, but only watch vertical video on sub-7"displays.

Putting equal effort into both is ridiculous.

We are also talking about photo either from video or directly as photo. On top of social media, a lot of publications, books or photobooks have portrait format so I don't agree with your assessment.  Just one example the hockey team that I cover wanted a vertical photo for their year book and also an horizontal poster for the vip area of one of the most iconic photo we did. It was a live action no time to rotate bla bla. Square sensor problem would be solved. As it was a 45Mpix photo I could crop vertically for the year book cover.

Plus what about anamorphic... stabilization, auto horizon level so many application for a square sensor. Not everybody just do films....

 

[kye]

7 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

We are also talking about photo either from video or directly as photo. On top of social media, a lot of publications, books or photobooks have portrait format so I don't agree with your assessment.  Just one example the hockey team that I cover wanted a vertical photo for their year book and also an horizontal poster for the vip area of one of the most iconic photo we did. It was a live action no time to rotate bla bla. Square sensor problem would be solved. As it was a 45Mpix photo I could crop vertically for the year book cover.

Plus what about anamorphic... stabilization, auto horizon level so many application for a square sensor. Not everybody just do films....

The original quote that I disagreed with was:

18 hours ago, MrSMW said:

It makes perfect sense to me that ALL sensors today, other than that intended for cinema/TV should be square because then best of both worlds!

So, @gt3rs, you're saying that because you, as a professional, are frequently asked for a mix of horizontal and vertical content, that the sensors in my phone, in my laptop camera, in my cars reversing camera, in every GoPro, in the GX85 update, in the Sony A7C, in the A6800, etc, should all be square?

Really?

I've said recently that the primary failure of folks is to not understand that others aren't the same as them, and the second failure is that when they learn of differences that they automatically think that everyone else is less valid than they are, less deserving, less relevant.

To think that every camera on earth should be changed just because it would be nicer for you....  I mean, that's the complete peak of ignorance and arrogance, right?

[gt3rs]

1 hour ago, kye said:

The original quote that I disagreed with was:

So, @gt3rs, you're saying that because you, as a professional, are frequently asked for a mix of horizontal and vertical content, that the sensors in my phone, in my laptop camera, in my cars reversing camera, in every GoPro, in the GX85 update, in the Sony A7C, in the A6800, etc, should all be square?

Really?

I've said recently that the primary failure of folks is to not understand that others aren't the same as them, and the second failure is that when they learn of differences that they automatically think that everyone else is less valid than they are, less deserving, less relevant.

To think that every camera on earth should be changed just because it would be nicer for you....  I mean, that's the complete peak of ignorance and arrogance, right?

Really? Not sure why you are so aggressive?

You can make any ratio out of a square sensor but not the inverse.

It allows also auto horizon level, better stabilization and more anamorphic support too but according to you I’m the only one interested in the world in this but yet Gopro hero 11, 11 mini and 12 have a 8:7 sensor, Insta360 go 2 and 3 have a 1:1 sensor…

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/i-think-gopro-hero-11-blacks-87-sensor-is-the-future-of-smartphone-photography

The new Black magic phone app let you film landscape by keeping the phone portrait a square sensor would be even better and so on…

But honestly why are you attacking me? Having a bad day?

This place is getting worse by the day… call me ignorant and arrogant because I asked a feature in a forum that some companies are already implementing…. wow

[kye]

1 minute ago, gt3rs said:

Really? Not sure why you are so aggressive?

You can make any ratio out of a square sensor but not the inverse.

It allows also auto horizon level, better stabilization and more anamorphic support too but according to you I’m the only one interested in the world in this but yet Gopro hero 11, 11 mini and 12 have a 8:7 sensor, Insta360 go 2 and 3 have a 1:1 sensor…

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/i-think-gopro-hero-11-blacks-87-sensor-is-the-future-of-smartphone-photography

The new Black magic phone app let you film landscape by keeping the phone portrait a square sensor would be even better and so on…

But honestly why are you attacking me? Having a bad day?

This place is getting worse by the day… call me ignorant and arrogant because I asked a feature in a forum that some companies are already implementing…. wow

Yeah, just a little frustrated about the whole world seemingly taking digital cameras and giving them a bunch of crap that is increasingly fringe and specialist at the expense of simply having nice looking images.

Everyone loves how the Alexa looks, even the original, but then when it comes to what features we demand in a camera, somehow image quality comes last, with all the BS somehow being more important.  Non-cinema cameras have worse image quality now than they did in 2013.

No-one stopped to ask...   if the first 2 million pixels looks like crap, why would I want to have 62 million more?

[OleB]

42 minutes ago, kye said:

No-one stopped to ask...   if the first 2 million pixels looks like crap, why would I want to have 62 million more?

So true! The better, yet even more perfect, the cameras are becoming, the less emotions can be felt in their footage. At least in my eyes. Personally, cinema is about diving into another world, which not necessarily resembles reality as close as possible.

Most of you already know this, I love the imperfections the SIGMA fp is having. Not overly sharp but pleasing colours. Combined with a good but not ground breaking dynamic range is enough. And from my feelings close to an Alexa. 

I see the reason for a Burano if you are shooting documentaries i.e. and there I could foresee the features are interesting yet might even be the unique selling point. For a feature film I would opt for something more imperfect, even if money would not be a question at all, which it unfortunately is.

[crevice]

Do the Burana and the A1 really share the same sensor? I ask because the A1 has some of the best looking footage of any mirrorless I have seen and I could never quite put my finger on it. It always looked a bit different to me than their other cameras. The A1 uses their IMX610AQL sensor, which was the only one of their cameras that were using it from what I know.  Most "YouTubers" only talked about specs, but none seemed to discuss or show real comparisons of how the actual A1 footage looks of compared to their other cameras, including the fx6/9. I have seen just one video, where someone used a shitty lut to compare an A1 to an A7S3, but most others are the typical YouTube trash where they talk specs and never really shoot or show anything worth a damn. 

If the Burana and the A1 really do share the same sensor, that would make sense, since the footage of the Burana also looks great.