SRV1981 Posted September 28, 2023 Author Share Posted September 28, 2023 the look he has is amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 hour ago, SRV1981 said: the look he has is amazing What an amazing statement... at around 46s he says "by shooting in normal HDR video mode I am sacrificing all the creative control I have over the image". HA! Does Resolve disable the Colour tab when you use these files? Does FCPX or PP disable their colour tools? Does a hitman from Apple appear behind you in your editing suite and put a gun to your head when you pull up a HDR shot in your colour editing tools? What a muppet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 1 hour ago, SRV1981 said: the look he has is amazing Ah, now I understand... He's a LUT peddler! This is an AD!! He doesn't want you to settle for the baked-in look from Apple that gives you no "creative control over the image" - he wants you to buy his LUT and the fact that it gives you no "creative control over the image" doesn't matter - he has money in his pocket so it's ok! Designing LUTs is hard and lots of skills are required - if he can't grade HDR footage then he falls well short of any standard. PannySVHS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRV1981 Posted September 29, 2023 Author Share Posted September 29, 2023 4 hours ago, kye said: Ah, now I understand... He's a LUT peddler! This is an AD!! He doesn't want you to settle for the baked-in look from Apple that gives you no "creative control over the image" - he wants you to buy his LUT and the fact that it gives you no "creative control over the image" doesn't matter - he has money in his pocket so it's ok! Designing LUTs is hard and lots of skills are required - if he can't grade HDR footage then he falls well short of any standard. By commands am I technical but apple HDR locks its settings like sharpening, saturation, etc. log gives you the control and if you look side by side it’s night and day. You’re making conspiracy theory out of a lack of knowledge of what he’s saying. Take a moment. Step back and look into this. It’s been shown by countless DPs that apples locked settings is what gives HDR a video look and now with log you can get a closer to film look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 On 9/28/2023 at 4:21 AM, SRV1981 said: Btw whomever said android raw was good is very correct. The DNG workflow is ass though. DNG files from Android RAM footage can be imported directly in Resolve. They also can be labeled in a way that Resolve see them as DNG files coming from a blackmagic camera. You have access to all the settings, like change ISO in post and even Highlight Recovery ! I'll share my workflow with some sample clips in a few days. It is easy if you have the knowledge. Funny enough but to shoot in 4K ProRes 60p on new iPhone 15 pro Apple forces you to use external storage, while with Android RAW you can get 4K at 60p internally on the latest generation flagships without any problem. External recording to SSD is available to Android RAW too. With Xioami 13 Ultra or Vivo x90 Pro Plus 1Tb internal storage at 1000-1100 E, you may never need external one. Going back to IPhone 15 Pro, here is one good example that shows that aggressive noise reduction in high ISOs is also gone with new iPhone 15. Flares are still present but much less than in 14 Pro where they are simply ruining the image. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHT2TEwJJz4 This guy claims that with Blackmagic application you can have Apple Log with HEVC (265) codec. Check the Apple Log part. Hm interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOZUfWcGCxk SRV1981 and Emanuel 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 2 hours ago, SRV1981 said: By commands am I technical but apple HDR locks its settings like sharpening, saturation, etc. log gives you the control and if you look side by side it’s night and day. You’re making conspiracy theory out of a lack of knowledge of what he’s saying. Take a moment. Step back and look into this. It’s been shown by countless DPs that apples locked settings is what gives HDR a video look and now with log you can get a closer to film look. Remember before when I said that colour grading knowledge is lacking? This is a far deeper subject than I think you're aware of, and the comments from the guy in the video are so oversimplified that they're closer to being factually incorrect than they are to just being misleading. I've been studying the "video look" because I hate it and want to eliminate it as much as possible in my own work, and you're right that over processing images will contribute to this, however that's not what the guy was saying. He said that shooting HDR gives you no "creative control over the image", which is patently false because you can get it in post. When grading any footage, regardless of the camera, there are a number of standard operations you would apply to it, and you apply all the same treatments to LOG and HDR images. I have a testing timeline where I am developing my own colour grading tools and techniques, and it contains everything from HDR iPhone footage to 709-style GX85 footage, to HLG GH5 footage to LOG XC10 footage to RAW and Prores footage from the OG BMPCC and BMMCC, to ARRI and RED RAW 8K footage. I apply a custom transform to each of them to convert them into my working colour space (which is Davinci's LOG space) and then I apply a single default node tree to all clips, regardless of which camera they came from, and then I grade all the clips in one sitting. I have done this process dozens of times. The HDR profile from the iPhone is approximated pretty well by a rec2020 conversion. In that sense, it's in a colour space just like any other footage. Do I grade the iPhone footage "differently" to the other footage? Yes, and no. I still apply the same adjustments to each clip, adjusting things like: White balance Exposure and contrast Saturation Black levels and white levels Specific adjustments to things like skin tones, colour of foliage and grass, etc Power windows to provide emphasis to the subject, usually lightening and adding contrast Removing troubled areas in the frame like anything that stands out and is distracting Texture adjustments like sharpening / softening / frequency separation Adding grain That stuff all sits underneath an overall look, which will be based on a CST or a LUT, as well as up to a dozen or so specific adjustments which are too complex to explain in this post. Does the iPhone footage "feel" different when being graded? Sure, but the XC10 and GH5 and OG BMPCC all feel more different to each other than the iPhone does. TBH it feels more like in the middle than the other cameras, and similar to the GH5 and GX85. Is it harder to grade because I'm having to overcome all the baked-in stuff? It's probably not as difficult to grade as the XC10 footage, and that's shot in C-Log, which is a proper professional LOG profile. The RAW stuff is easiest to grade. What you might not be aware of is that all the different forms of RAW also feel different. Different scenes feel different too, even from the same camera. Can you make iPhone footage look as nice as ARRI footage? No. Definitely not. But you won't be able to make the Apple LOG footage look like that either. Can you have "creative control over the image". Absolutely. You have no idea how much control you can have over the image. Apple LOG does give you more "creative control over the image", but compared to the creative control you have by even learning the basics of colour grading, the difference is minimal. The only people who have no "creative control over the image" are people that have no colour grading ability. The ironic thing is that by applying a LUT designed by someone else, you have less effective creative control than you had before you applied it. Going back to the "video" look that over processing the image gives, I have become very sensitive to it and see it online in almost all free content. It is present even on videos shot on high-end cinema cameras. The only places it is almost completely absent is on high-end productions on streaming services and in the cinema. PannySVHS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 4 hours ago, SRV1981 said: By commands am I technical but apple HDR locks its settings like sharpening, saturation, etc. log gives you the control and if you look side by side it’s night and day. You’re making conspiracy theory out of a lack of knowledge of what he’s saying. Take a moment. Step back and look into this. It’s been shown by countless DPs that apples locked settings is what gives HDR a video look and now with log you can get a closer to film look. Here are a set of four shots from my iPhone 12 Mini that I have graded very quickly in a few different ways to give a sense of what is possible, and what "film looks" might be able to be created. The first row has no grading applied, the second has my standard default iPhone input transform, the rest are more creative grades, just pushing it around to create various looks. All these shots were shot on full-auto with the default iPhone app. Every shot on the same row has the same grade, including exposure and WB and everything, despite being shot on three different continents. All these use only effects that are available in Resolve - no third-party plugins or LUTs or other YT influencer bullshit. You tell me - do I look like I am currently experiencing a complete lack of creative control over my images? Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 A bit more playing around with what is possible from my HDR iPhone 12 images... Reference image from the move Ava (2020): iPhone grade: iPhone (ungraded): It's not perfect, but without having them next to each other it's not terrible. I couldn't find what camera Ava was shot on, but I did find that it was shot with Panavision anamorphics. No doubt that is a contributing factor to why my iPhone shot doesn't match the exact look of the movie lol. PannySVHS and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 Another one, this time a shot from one of the Jason Bourne films, I think this was the second one, which was shot on Kodak Vision 3 and printed on Kodak 2383. Reference image: iPhone grade: iPhone (ungraded): I'm not so happy with that one, but the subject matter was a lot more different, with the reference shot being in full sun and the iPhone image being overcast and also containing a lot of different hues. The road in the reference image is asphalt and is slightly blue in the image, whereas the "road" in the iPhone shot is actually tram tracks and concrete, not asphalt. Still, there was something in the green/magenta/yellow hues that I couldn't quite nail. Oh well. That's those HDR images from the iPhone - you have no creative control over them. If only Apple had given me a slider for saturation, sharpening, and other controls, those would have matched the look of S35mm film and Cooke lenses perfectly 😉 PannySVHS and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 Another one to match the above with a slightly better matching scene (still not hard light though - the pollution in India is no joke!). Ref: iPhone grade: iPhone (ungraded): Ok, I'll shut up now. Emanuel and Andrew Reid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted September 29, 2023 Administrators Share Posted September 29, 2023 Nice results Does anyone know what the right combination of settings are in Resolve to get Dolby Vision HDR 4K footage from the older iPhones from 12 through 14 to display as HLG in Resolve without the Dolby Vision metadata, or tone mapping applied? Just want to grade the HGL like S-LOG. Everything I've tried so far doesn't work, including setting custom colour spaces in Resolve set to Rec 2100 and Hybrid Log Gamma. Emanuel and kye 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 52 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said: Nice results Does anyone know what the right combination of settings are in Resolve to get Dolby Vision HDR 4K footage from the older iPhones from 12 through 14 to display as HLG in Resolve without the Dolby Vision metadata, or tone mapping applied? Just want to grade the HGL like S-LOG. Everything I've tried so far doesn't work, including setting custom colour spaces in Resolve set to Rec 2100 and Hybrid Log Gamma. I've seen this get recommended online elsewhere. Personally I just shot a colour chart with the phone and made a curve to straighten out the greyscale patches and a bit of hue vs hue and hue vs sat curves to put the patches where they should be in the vector scope. I've tried using a CST and didn't like the results from that as much as my own version. After I did my conversion my other test images all straightened out nicely and the footage actually looked pretty straight-forwards to grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted September 29, 2023 Administrators Share Posted September 29, 2023 I am kinda trying to do the opposite. Want it to display as LOG, not HDR with tone mapping. It does look washed out in terms of colour space, but not in terms of gamma. Remember the Panasonic S1 and it had Hybrid LOG Gamma but no V-LOG? You could simply grade the Hybrid LOG Gamma as if it were C-LOG or something. Now you can't because all the NLEs pick up the metadata and handle it as HDR at 1000 nits! Must be a way to handle it as LOG instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 30, 2023 Share Posted September 30, 2023 11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: I am kinda trying to do the opposite. Want it to display as LOG, not HDR with tone mapping. It does look washed out in terms of colour space, but not in terms of gamma. Remember the Panasonic S1 and it had Hybrid LOG Gamma but no V-LOG? You could simply grade the Hybrid LOG Gamma as if it were C-LOG or something. Now you can't because all the NLEs pick up the metadata and handle it as HDR at 1000 nits! Must be a way to handle it as LOG instead? I'm not sure what you're seeing, but there seems to be two things required. The first is to get Resolve to not automatically do anything to the footage. IIRC you can do this by going to the clips in the Media tab and there's some option when you right-click on the clips that is something like Bypass Colour Management or something similar. That should tell Resolve not to do anything automatically based on metadata in the clip. The second one is the conversion, which should just be a CST from the right space to the destination one. IIRC the video suggested it was rec2020/rec2100 HLG, so you should be able to do a CST from that to whatever LOG format you want to work in. Keep in mind that you might want to do the CST at the start to a common working colour space for all your media and cameras, so that any grades or presets you create will work the same on all footage from any camera. I use DI/DWG for this purpose. Then if you have a LUT that wants a specific colour space, you just do a CST from DI/DWG to that log space, then put the LUT after that and you should be good. For example, the iPhone shots above had the following pipeline: Convert to DI/DWG I manually adjust the clips to 709 with a few adjustments and then use a CST from 709/2.4 to DI/DWG all my default nodes etc are in DI/DWG CST from DI/DWG to LogC/709 Resolve Film Look LUTs (mostly the Kodak 2383 one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Looks like ready for prime time: kye and SRV1981 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRV1981 Posted October 1, 2023 Author Share Posted October 1, 2023 6 hours ago, Emanuel said: Looks like ready for prime time: Looks like an fx30 PannySVHS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PannySVHS Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Looks like a S16 GH5 II to me. That is a compliment. Skintones gave away that it is not a highend camera but the current flagship iphone. Seems like that nasty sharpening is absent. SRV1981 and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Seems a game changer in fact : ) Just wondering if LOG gets rid of all that nuisance... PannySVHS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PannySVHS Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 A 10bit Lx100 or Lx15 with Pdaf and clutch mechanism for manual focus with hard stops and focus magnification during recording, full hdmi and a 10bit GH5 II image and video modes. All for a price tag between 699 / 799 Usd/EUR or even 801:). That would be a game changer for me. I would be happy with Pannyboys exellent Long GOP codecs. But that camera is not around the corner, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRV1981 Posted October 1, 2023 Author Share Posted October 1, 2023 12 hours ago, Emanuel said: tomastancredi and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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