Blackmagic Update - 14th September 2023 19:00 CET

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, kye said:

All those arguments could be made about shooting 1080p.  Good luck trying to hold back "technological progress"!!

And guess what... you'll be surprised how many productions still shoot in 1080!

I think I work on 4K productions more often than "less than 4K" productions (so including 2K for instance here as well). 

But I'm honestly not sure!

4K might be losing out. (but if 4K isn't in the majority yet, I get the feeling it will be soon. Can just depend on a bit of random chance, what type of productions I've been working on lately) 

This just gives you an idea of how slowly things can change, it's certainly not 4K+ only and always being used everywhere. 

And why ProRes is still the most popular choice, and won't be going away any time soon. 

Things change slower than you think. 

[JulioD]

Don’t shoot the messenger. 

I’m just talking about the way BMD see it.  

They are known for how good their color science is, and now workflow, especially on their own cameras.  I mean most of the best looking images shot on other cameras are still going through Resolve for final color.

They made a great codec that works on even the oldest computers. BRAW 12K plays back faster than 4K ProRes even on Mac. 

Don’t kid yourself that 4K or 2K delivery means you only need 4K acquisition.    Because right now you can shoot 12K BRAW for a SIMILAR file size as ProRes 4K.  So why bother with a legacy codec.

If you are BMD why would you bother supporting a legacy codec anymore. It’s not just KINDA supported.  The only KINDA supported is FCP.  In everything else BRAW works, especially the big boys like AVID.  And until recently the ONLY way to shoot ProRes RAW internally is on a Nikon.  I’m not sure that problem has been solved yet either.  You’re currently FORCED to use an external recorder to record PRR.

And from what I understand, PRR won’t easily support the higher resolutions like 12K because the file size is then massive.  It can’t scale up.  And before you say I don’t need 12K, again, with BRAW it can be a similar file size to 4K ProRes BUT you get the super sampling advantages.  I’m not saying that’s what everyone actually wants, but think about it from BM’s perspective. 

They made an awesome raw(ish) codec that plays back on any computer often faster than 4K ProRes, in most editorial and finishing systems that can handle and scale to higher resolutions with no real file size cost.  It could be implemented by other manufacturers if they wished, but they’d be happy just using it for their own eco system anyway.

I think the main reason that people aren’t using BRAW more on other cameras is that they don’t like the recorders that Blackmagic make, not because they don’t want BRAW.

 

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, JulioD said:

If you are BMD why would you bother supporting a legacy codec anymore. It’s not just KINDA supported.

Nobody else than BMD makes cameras which do braw internally. 

While ProRes is universal on just about everything at a certain level of production. Not just ARRI, even RED and Sony do it now. 

12 hours ago, JulioD said:

I think the main reason that people aren’t using BRAW more on other cameras is that they don’t like the recorders that Blackmagic make, not because they don’t want BRAW.

I'd say it's  more because at anything above low budget level productions, then they'd rather not use external recorders in most cases. 

[seanzzxx]

I can't stress enough how much I believe external recorders suck, it's just one more thing to fail (and I've seen them fail multiple times, whether it was due to a bad cable, a cable getting yanked, an Atomos locking up, an output setting from the hdmi being checked/unchecked) etc. Sometimes it won't even register until there's playback.

[JulioD]

22 minutes ago, seanzzxx said:

I can't stress enough how much I believe external recorders suck, it's just one more thing to fail (and I've seen them fail multiple times, whether it was due to a bad cable, a cable getting yanked, an Atomos locking up, an output setting from the hdmi being checked/unchecked) etc. Sometimes it won't even register until there's playback.

Totally agree. Avoid at all costs. 

[JulioD]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Nobody else than BMD makes cameras which do braw internally. 

 

And I think they’re fine with that because they seem to be selling tens of thousands of cameras so they don’t really need to care about wider adoption. 

[seanzzxx]

So I've been shooting some low light footage with this camera and I have to say ... I don't see what everyone is complaining about. Yes, this camera is noisey, but coming from Ursa's and a Pocket 4K/6K, it's MILES ahead. Very organic noise with little color, and importantly, colors of subjects hold up very well. I think people have gotten so spoiled with low light shooting recently, while I'm pretty blown away with the low light footage coming from this camera.

The only thing which is really annoying (and BM PLEASE fix this), it that the large amount of (pleasant) noise completely throws off peaking above iso 1250, making it virtually useless. I can't recall this happening on my 6K ever.

[kye]

4 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

So I've been shooting some low light footage with this camera and I have to say ... I don't see what everyone is complaining about. Yes, this camera is noisey, but coming from Ursa's and a Pocket 4K/6K, it's MILES ahead. Very organic noise with little color, and importantly, colors of subjects hold up very well. I think people have gotten so spoiled with low light shooting recently, while I'm pretty blown away with the low light footage coming from this camera.

The only thing which is really annoying (and BM PLEASE fix this), it that the large amount of (pleasant) noise completely throws off peaking above iso 1250, making it virtually useless. I can't recall this happening on my 6K ever.

The latest test video from Matteo shows quite a difference in noise between the BMCC6K and BMPCC6K in the super-dark areas when be boosts the image up a bunch, so unless he did something wrong (which I doubt), it's noisier than the previous model:

However, it doesn't look visible unless he boosts the image to reveal it, so it's likely only an issue if you're not able to expose properly and/or want to see in the dark like night-vision-goggles.

Of course, this is the internet, so every tiny detail must be completely removed from reality and then blown up beyond any sense of reasonableness (then everyone can latch onto the least significant issues and argue solely based on those!).

[JulioD]

2 hours ago, kye said:

 

Of course, this is the internet, so every tiny detail must be completely removed from reality and then blown up beyond any sense of reasonableness (then everyone can latch onto the least significant issues and argue solely based on those!).

So very painfully true!!!

[seanzzxx]

4 hours ago, kye said:

The latest test video from Matteo shows quite a difference in noise between the BMCC6K and BMPCC6K in the super-dark areas when be boosts the image up a bunch, so unless he did something wrong (which I doubt), it's noisier than the previous model:

However, it doesn't look visible unless he boosts the image to reveal it, so it's likely only an issue if you're not able to expose properly and/or want to see in the dark like night-vision-goggles.

Of course, this is the internet, so every tiny detail must be completely removed from reality and then blown up beyond any sense of reasonableness (then everyone can latch onto the least significant issues and argue solely based on those!).

Yeah so I realize this might just be confirmation bias on my part, as I currently haven't done a side by side. All I can say is I've shot a ton with the 4k/6k (although the 6k is almost always in the first gain stage) and I was really pleasantly surprised with the character (not the amount) of the noise.

And when it's dark I don't shoot to lift the shadows as if I'm shooting a circa 2008 Ken Rockwell HDR landscape photo. My blacks are black. I see the noise that's in the log and it's a ton, but that gets crushed anyway, what I care about is the relative lack of color noise in the exposed parts and the lack of color shifting. I'm planning on doing a side by side next week with the 6k.

[kye]

23 minutes ago, seanzzxx said:

Yeah so I realize this might just be confirmation bias on my part, as I currently haven't done a side by side. All I can say is I've shot a ton with the 4k/6k (although the 6k is almost always in the first gain stage) and I was really pleasantly surprised with the character (not the amount) of the noise.

And when it's dark I don't shoot to lift the shadows as if I'm shooting a circa 2008 Ken Rockwell HDR landscape photo. My blacks are black. I see the noise that's in the log and it's a ton, but that gets crushed anyway, what I care about is the relative lack of color noise in the exposed parts and the lack of color shifting. I'm planning on doing a side by side next week with the 6k.

Absolutely.

I do all sorts of side-by-side tests and nit-pick minor differences in colour grading techniques too, but it's important to always remember to make final judgements on the final result, rather than some artificial situation.  This is why I encourage people to grade the footage, export it, and upload it to whatever final platform they'll use for delivery.  It doesn't matter how the image looks in your NLE, it's how the viewers will see it that matters (and if it's a paid gig then obviously the producer/director/client need to be happy too).

The only reasons I do these nit-picky tests is:

1. to keep familiar with shooting in-between my trips (which is what I shoot)
2. to eek out the best results I can when shooting in difficult conditions with modest cameras
3. to eek out the nicest colour grading I can (spectacular colour is the culmination of a bunch of small tweaks, not a few big ones)
4. to test out new techniques and keep learning and improving my skill levels
5. to understand and optimise the many trade-offs that we're forced to make

I also do all these things with my cinematography, editing, sound design, and delivery.  The whole pipeline matters.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

So I've been shooting some low light footage with this camera and I have to say ... I don't see what everyone is complaining about. Yes, this camera is noisey, but coming from Ursa's and a Pocket 4K/6K, it's MILES ahead. Very organic noise with little color, and importantly, colors of subjects hold up very well. I think people have gotten so spoiled with low light shooting recently, while I'm pretty blown away with the low light footage coming from this camera.

I agree, I say as I'm shaking my fist on my front porch, these spoiled young'uns don't know how good they've got it these days!

Remember, the P4K shared its sensor with the Panasonic GH5S, which was itself a low light beast for its time (which seriously guys, wasn't that long ago!)

Even the original Pocket was regarded as being "pretty good at low light" (for its time, and for a cinema camera).

I shot part of a vampire feature film (we never completed it 😞 Was a very low budget thing, ran out of steam) with my OG Pocket + my SLR Magic 25mm f0.95 + a friend's borrowed Voigtlander 17.5mm f0.95 

Fantastic setup for super low light situations! We'd shoot outdoors at night, with simply the full moon and some small handheld LED panels. 

I remember reading about a feature film shot a while ago with a RED Scarlet primarily, but all the night scenes were shot with an OG BMPCC instead because it did better low light than the RED!

[kye]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I agree, I say as I'm shaking my fist on my front porch, these spoiled young'uns don't know how good they've got it these days!

Remember, the P4K shared its sensor with the Panasonic GH5S, which was itself a low light beast for its time (which seriously guys, wasn't that long ago!)

Even the original Pocket was regarded as being "pretty good at low light" (for its time, and for a cinema camera).

I shot part of a vampire feature film (we never completed it 😞 Was a very low budget thing, ran out of steam) with my OG Pocket + my SLR Magic 25mm f0.95 + a friend's borrowed Voigtlander 17.5mm f0.95 

Fantastic setup for super low light situations! We'd shoot outdoors at night, with simply the full moon and some small handheld LED panels. 

I remember reading about a feature film shot a while ago with a RED Scarlet primarily, but all the night scenes were shot with an OG BMPCC instead because it did better low light than the RED!

Never mind that colourists working on high-end material still regard noise reduction as a critical tool for every shoot, including the ones where all the material was exposed properly in-camera and recorded at native ISO!

It's fascinating to download cinema camera footage for the first time and see that it has more noise in it than a mirrorless low-light test.  I got a bit of a shock when I saw that for the first time.

[PannySVHS]

S1 and S1H cleanup awesome in post with noise reduction in Davinci Resolve, using their light 10bit LongGop. Great image pipeline. @kye Could be the best h264 camera of all when it comes to pure image quality and the best Long Gop in the biz.

[kye]

2 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

S1 and S1H cleanup awesome in post with noise reduction in Davinci Resolve, using their light 10bit LongGop. Great image pipeline. @kye Could be the best h264 camera of all when it comes to pure image quality and the best Long Gop in the biz.

If only they weren't so large!

[IronFilm]

Large... large??  😛 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

S1 and S1H cleanup awesome in post with noise reduction in Davinci Resolve, using their light 10bit LongGop. Great image pipeline. @kye Could be the best h264 camera of all when it comes to pure image quality and the best Long Gop in the biz.

I do reckon @Jedi Master should take a second look at the Panasonic S1H (or the BS1H, which is the same camera, but in a different form factor). 

[kye]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Large... large??  😛 

Yep..  it's the darnedest thing - on a film set they're thimble-sized and in danger of being lost, but if you pick one up and then walk out of the film set it starts to grow...  as you walk through crowded tourist hotspots it has become quite large, perhaps the size of a toddlers head, but as you walk away from the crowds it rapidly inflates to be the size of a watermelon, with passers-by stopping and staring at you..  by the time you leave the areas with moderate foot-traffic it has become the size of a dozen adult-themed helium balloons and gathers about the same amount of attention.

[seanzzxx]

Interesting thing about file sizes. I shot an event with the S5 II in IPB (it doesn't shoot All-I) in 4K and the Pocket 6K in Q5 in 16:9 6K and the Pocket 6K file sizes ended up a fraction smaller at 6K as the S5 did at 4k. Really amazing compression.

[A_Urquhart]

On 11/16/2023 at 6:52 PM, JulioD said:

And I think they’re fine with that because they seem to be selling tens of thousands of cameras so they don’t really need to care about wider adoption. 

Why wouldn’t they want more of the Pro market? 
Why wouldn’t they want people who bought a pocket camera to be able to stay with BMD when they move up the ranks? Currently, between the Pocket cameras and Ursa12K (end i even wouldn’t consider that as a main camera) there is nothing to cater to experienced shooters working professionally unless they are shooter/editor that edits their own footage. 
as great as BRAW might be, no one wants it. 
After owning a few BMD cameras, as soon as I started shooting professionally for others, it was clear I needed to ditch BMD for Sony. 
Productions want what they know fits their workflow rather than a camera that has  slightly better colours or highlight rolloff. 
Lack of a 10bit codec is a huge miss for BMD!