How you design a $2000 FF hybrid camera?

[ND64]

Let's assume you are product manager in a Japanese camera company. You want to add a new video oriented hybrid to your line up. By video oriented hybrid I mean a video camera that can be used for still photography, rather than a still camera that can shoot video very well.

Please be specific about the specs. And consider, as a product manager, you should have a clear plan for future updates releasing every 2 years, and at least one firmware update in between. Also be realistic to keep the price at $2k.

I don't want to know what you personally want. I want to know what you think the market wants.

 

Thanks.

[ND64]

Somehow relevant to my question.

Now they're comparing iPhone 15 pro 5x camera to 24-70mm lens at 70mm. 

Yes, DSLR image has higher quality, but the fact that we're now doing this comparisons shows that a $3000 camera lens combo should deliver a lot of value to stay attractive for younger generation. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

don't want to know what you personally want. I want to know what you think the market wants.

I have no idea what the market wants, only what I would like. I'm selfish like that.

The S5ii is the closest thing right now along with maybe the R6ii?

The only things I don't like about the S5ii are; the rear LCD could be higher res, I don't like the shutter button feel or sound and don't like the files (photo) as much as those from the S1H. Might be an OLPF thing, but I suspect it is more than that...

What does their market want? Well quite a few the new Zf, me included. 

[ND64]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

The only things I don't like about the S5ii are; the rear LCD could be higher res

I think the overall size of the display is a problem too. iPhone 15 Pro now records prores 4k60p to external SD in log, and its a 6.7 inch state of the art display.

 

[MrSMW]

12 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

I think the overall size of the display is a problem too

Not a 'problem' as such for me, but yes, would definitely prefer something larger, but how large is possible without increasing the camera size?

3.2" I think is the larger size on even the best FF mirrorless although the MF may have larger and the BlackMagic definitely does, but then it's. much bigger camera.

I will take resolution over size any day though, with ability to pinch and zoom in ideally.

[Andrew Reid]

5 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Let's assume you are product manager in a Japanese camera company. You want to add a new video oriented hybrid to your line up.

I would target it it primarily at photographers, to get the sales going strong and wait for video people to catch on!

Get the basics right... PDAF, IBIS, ND, colour, codec.

Put the ND in a nice EF adapter with a clear setting, if it costs too much to put it in the camera body.

Make sure it does Cinema DNG raw in 2.8K 10bit for fun (SD card)

Make the LOG profile as easy to grade as C-LOG.

Put a larger than 3" screen on the back, and make it 16:9

Built the body out of silver alloy, so it shines, with a wooden grip.

Don't bother with the black anodising or whatever.

That should separate it from the crowd!!

[ND64]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

target it it primarily at photographers

Targeted photographers and 16:9 screen? 🤔

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Cinema DNG raw in 2.8K

Dictates very low res sensor. We can't use pixel binning for raw. 

[Davide DB]

9 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

By video oriented hybrid I mean a video camera that can be used for still photography, rather than a still camera that can shoot video very well.

I would take the industrial design team and lock them in a room with:

- A Hassemblad 907X 50C kit

- An Insta360 One RS kit

- An old Zenza Bronica with grip.

Essentially I would want a camera consisting of:

A squared brain with buttons, inputs and outputs, and a minimal display (like a ZCam or the front one of a GoPro) that would allow me to configure the machine.

A high-resolution 3.5 inches display module to attach to the rear that can rotate as we are used to on a GH5. I am not talking about an external monitor but a module that adheres to the butt of the brain and forms a complete body capable of controlling and configuring it like an integrated display. The whole thing a parallelepiped like an FX3.

A Hassemblad-style handle/grip complete with controls and wheels to add to the brain and get the ergonomics of a current camera.

Throw in an adapter with ND.

Put the pieces together and you have a complete camera suitable for photo and video.

If you just use the brain you have a komodo/zcam/BS1H style stuff that you can configure as a cinema rig.

add display and handle and you get a complete camera.

Hassemblad 907X 5C has everything (but the touch display is built-in)

P.S.

Choose which piece costs 2K 🙂

 

 

 

 

[kye]

12 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Please be specific about the specs. And consider, as a product manager, you should have a clear plan for future updates releasing every 2 years, and at least one firmware update in between. Also be realistic to keep the price at $2k.

This isn't how the technology industry works.

In order to cater for the long development cycle and also try and respond to market conditions you want to use something like set based design.  This is a reasonable introduction to the topic.

https://scaledagileframework.com/set-based-design/#:~:text=Set-Based Design (SBD),eliminating poorer choices over time.

[BabsDoProd]

If I didn't have to worry about rolling shutter performance, I would aim for a Full Frame sensor that films in 8K at least up to 24P (true 24 or 23.98). I would put buttons on the camera rather than a touch screen but not so many that it gets confusing, we're talking a record button, a joypad style navigation button, menu button, and then add at least five custom buttons around the camera that are fully user assignable. I could see adding control wheels and such but that's more for a stills camera as a video camera is basically set up ahead of time and sits on those settings forever in the menu aside from gain/ISO or ND. Full size HDMI output, dual USB-C (in case of recording on 1 and power on 2), if there's room for it then two full XLR ports or at least mini-XLR, and a 3.5mm jack. As for sound, it needs to be at least as good as a Zoom H4N and I don't know if 32-bit is affordable for integrating it yet but at least 24-bit/96khz sound. The camera has to be mirrorless mount and it would most likely be L-mount since that can be added without too much fuss compared to the others and you do at least get some sort of AF that way without resorting to a dumb mount solution. Dual card recording would be ideal to have in there and rollover for extra long recording would be helpful. For the screen, I keep seeing nice screens these days that are 5" and especially 7" for not much money at all so incorporating one of these screens would be an easy choice as it just needs to be nice enough to see what you're doing and if it's not too complicated to put a flip out hinge together for it, I wouldn't mind a nice 7" fold out screen to make sure I get my 8K image really sharp and focused. With a 7" screen, you can tell that size isn't a factor for me, it's going to end up being more of a box version of the Blackmagic Pocket cameras but not too far off as we just have to accept that camera cages are a thing and that helps to customize it to the user so that's roughly what I would aim for, just keeping it simple. The Fuji XH2 could be some inspiration for the 8K factor but it all comes down to what sensor can be used to make that happen for FF8K and not have some of the downsides like heavy rolling shutter or dynamic range limitations but I don't think a lot of sensors will have that problem these days and going forward.

[MrSMW]

In terms of pure design aesthetics and handling, I also want this @Davide DB

[Davide DB]

29 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

In terms of pure design aesthetics and handling, I also want this @Davide DB

I would have the box/brain with some assignable function buttons and then more fine/direct controls on the optional handle. On Hassemblad the handle is completely separate from the body. I imagine a control handle which becomes part of the body itself.

P.S.

In my design team I would add a Lego engineer 😉

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

In my design team I would add a Lego engineer

Just as long as he, she or they (you can never truly tell with Lego people) doesn’t have the standard Lego hands. Which are rubbish.

[MrSMW]

And you don’t want the guy who did the Millenium Falcon.

Just ONE cup holder.

MAJOR oversight.

[ND64]

18 hours ago, BabsDoProd said:

With a 7" screen, you can tell that size isn't a factor for me, it's going to end up being more of a box version of the Blackmagic Pocket

With 7 inch it becomes so wide that will be unusable for still photography.

The problem is they never figured out how to make a external monitor solution. The best scenario would be a 4" built-in and 7" inch wireless with 60Ghz and internal battery. 

[Davide DB]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:05 AM, Davide DB said:

I would take the industrial design team and lock them in a room with:

- A Hassemblad 907X 50C kit

- An Insta360 One RS kit

- An old Zenza Bronica with grip.

Essentially I would want a camera consisting of:

A squared brain with buttons, inputs and outputs, and a minimal display (like a ZCam or the front one of a GoPro) that would allow me to configure the machine.

A high-resolution 3.5 inches display module to attach to the rear that can rotate as we are used to on a GH5. I am not talking about an external monitor but a module that adheres to the butt of the brain and forms a complete body capable of controlling and configuring it like an integrated display. The whole thing a parallelepiped like an FX3.

A Hassemblad-style handle/grip complete with controls and wheels to add to the brain and get the ergonomics of a current camera.

Throw in an adapter with ND.

Put the pieces together and you have a complete camera suitable for photo and video.

If you just use the brain you have a komodo/zcam/BS1H style stuff that you can configure as a cinema rig.

add display and handle and you get a complete camera.

Hassemblad 907X 5C has everything (but the touch display is built-in)

P.S.

Choose which piece costs 2K 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

It seems that Panasonic has read my post 😉

 

https://ymcinema.com/2024/05/13/panasonic-develops-an-advanced-boxy-style-cinema-camera/