Second hand REDs

[Kristoferman]

Was wondering what the general opinion on grabbing a used Red ONE or what have you is?  In my search for a camera, I've kind of ignored Red because I've always thought them to be out of my price range.  But looking around, it appears you can get a ONE for relatively "cheap" (4-5k).  Would grabbing on of those be preferable to anything else in the price range?

 

I like it because it's 4K compressed RAW, PL mount, and has anamorphic mode for 2.40 aspect ratio.  Not sure if there are any known issues to be aware of, or if other options outshine it?

 

 

Another option i was looking at is a KineMini, but literally nobody in the U.S. has one soooooo....not looking good there. Opinions?

[IronFilm]

I'd get a BMPC4K / BMCC MFT / BMPCC / FS700 in a heartbeat over a RED ONE (I've used all of these, including the RED ONE, except for a BMPC4K). And they all go for the same price or a *lot* cheaper. (also, check out the Sony FS7 if your budget can stretch upwards)

KineMini 4K looks tempting on paper, but the extremely tiny local user base is a worry, check out this forum if you feel like giving the dice a roll and risk getting it: http://kinecommunity.com

A point to remember is the RED ONE is a *very* old camera. Thus why it is going so "cheap". I'd say the biggest appeal of it would be having the "RED" brand name, I know people who have purchased it largely on that basis it seems. 

But depending on your specific needs, I'd recommend going with one of those others which I mentioned. 

Another gotcha about all RED cameras to remember, is the total cost of ownership is always a lot higher than merely what the price of the brain itself is. And for RED that is often rather high indeed. Significantly more expensive than it would be to build up say a BMCC or FS7 kit, as an example. 

 

[aspirepro]

Despite what has been said above(good points)...

I would still really consider the KineMINI... I know that there are plenty of people in the states that have one.

One thing about www.kinecommunity.com is that there are not that many members yet, and has only been started a few months ago. with more and more orders being fulfilled you will definitely see this grow.

I personally waited a few months to get mine, although I live in the middle east, I still got it, and am well pleased.

It's still a Chinese brand and is not without it's little quirks, but the image quality is exceptional, the Build is strong and robust and the company is always releasing new firmware updates that continue to utilize the sensor and beef up the camera.

The potential problems with the cameras listed above are:

BM cameras- still a newer company than even Kinefinity... has had many issued with vertical banding, sunspots and poor in camera management. you could always try the URSA which is really big and heavy if thats your thing...

Sony FS700- Awesome camera, but if you want to go all out, you really need an external recorder(for RAW) which will always add to bulkiness and $$$, as if the FS700 isn't big enough already.

Sony FS7- Also a great camera, but your still working with Sony's step my step upgrade system, which is kind of annoying, firstly you will still need an external recorder for RAW and they still don't have a firmware update for the true 4K yet.

 

I would look into Kinemini for a few great features like:

internal 4K RAW (DNG) recording

3:1 compression (KRW) format which means- in camera recoding that saves space( and then convert them to DNG's later or just compress them to CineForm RAW.

3K options including- RAW slow motion up to 60FPS (IN CAMERA) and 4:3 anamorphic options that are awesome!( if only I had some anamorphic lenses)

2K CineForm RAW-great codec where you can work with the live metadata and speed up your workflow while still having a ton of latitude with your grades.

KINEGRIP- this means that you can power the camera from a side grip (make sure to get the right batteries-makes a big difference - 30min vs60-90min) that essentially makes your camera way smaller, lighter and compact( I have done this recently being able to get into places that would usually not allow big cameras to film, and achieve RAW 4K on the run.

Great SLOW MOTION-up to 120FPS Cineform RGB 444 in high speed modes (I would make sure to have a diffusion filter to take care of any potential Moire or Aliasing-like most cameras, even the F5 and F55 have this problem in 2k if they haven't had switched out the thier 4K OLPF for the expensive 2K optimized one)

There are dozens more features like WIFI control and S16 modes and more that would take me forever to write in this, but still, if you are unsure of committing to company that is on the other side of the globe, I understand... I would probably stick with the FS700 or the FS7... other than that, I am testament to a happy user who is using his camera on a daily basis, and lovin it!

I personally ordered mine from hdvideoshop.com which is in Berlin, Germany... that might make you feel better that you have some accountability there(not being in China).

 

Hope that this helped

 

 

[Kristoferman]

Thanks for the comments. Seems I have even more research to do.

[andy lee]

Red files need transcoding before you load them into Avid etc - this adds time and cost onto any job you do - worth remembering

[Tim Naylor]

I think a Red One is a great deal if your looking to get into cinema or commercial style shooting. Make sure it has the MX chip upgrade, EVF and 7" LCD. I've owned both an Epic and a R1. I sold them because I use many different camera platforms per job. But the R1 has a special place in my heart. I actually like the way it balances on the shoulder better than the Epic, its EVF is excellent, and I like not having to use the touch screen (I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally swiped it to the wrong setting - no lock on Epic!). The image quality is excellent with about 13 stops of DR. Perhaps the biggest disadvantage is that it's not a run and gun system or solo user friendly. Because of the size, components, and batteries, you need to shoot this with an AC. If I were to shoot a commercial and given the choice of BMC, URSA or R1, I'd shoot on the R1 in a heart beat. 

Keep in mind, being a heavier rig you'll need heavier / more expensive support.

Here're some clips of something I shot on R1/ MX.

http://vimeopro.com/user6325180/narrative

 

[Kristoferman]

Thanks for sharing. Those are some beautiful images. Yeah the size is the biggest impediment at the moment. I'd prefer something that could fit on the Ronin. Although I suppose I'm going to need a B Cam as well

[jgharding]

Red files don't require transcoding in Premiere. Drag them in and play.

i nearly went for this too. The only issues were size complexity and PL mount.

lenses are expensive, the whole thing weighs loads Especially with big Anton Bauer batteries or similar, but the image is brilliant and gives you an edge. I like to work quicker and lighter than Red allows so I went against it, but do consider it. Hire one and try it out!

[andy lee]

there are some very good bargins on ebay and pro resellers - Im getting email lists every week with Red Ones on them.

It is very tempting ! Alot of great films where shot on Red One MX -    it will need all the rigs etc to make it work

 

Fincher was using it not long ago!!

[Tim Naylor]

Another thing to consider is what kind of work do you plan to do with it. I'd seriously consider the Sony Fs7. It may end up being cheaper than the Red 1. Even though the R1 may list cheaper once you add in support, media, drives, batteries/charger, accessories, you may end up spending more. The FS7 will give you 4k and better high speed options. Whether its IQ is as good remains to be seen. In terms of work, assuming the FS7's  IQ is up to the task, it would probably work more as it's well suited to small crew/doc as well as narrative. R1 is not a good doc / run and gun camera.

[Kristoferman]

I thought the fs7 only recorded 10-bit without a recorder? 

[IronFilm]

It is a very important question to also ask, what kind of shooting are you doing? 

As most of the Blackmagic Cameras, Kinefinity, and RED are all  rather niche cameras (narrative/scripted videos with decent sized crews is what they're ideal for), while say a Sony FS7 is a better more general purpose camera. 

Also, don't discount the idea of getting more than one camera! Then you can pick the right tool for each job. 

An example three camera combo which would be lovely: Sony A7s, BMPCC, Sony PXW-70

This would be a total cost which is comparable or less to many of the ones listed above, and a person would be very well set up for a wide range of stuff: events, narrative films, corporate video, run and gun, weddings, low light, slow motion, VFX plates, etc...

Of course what is the right combination that is right for you, depends on you and your clients.