End of the shallow DOF obsession? Is 2x crop more cinematic?

[kye]

This video from Cooke, suggests that the new Alexa 35 is creating a "return of super 35", and Jay and Christopher suggest that "it opens the world" and "as we moved into larger and larger sensors as a trend, that limited the options for lenses" and that going back to S35 gives "a larger breadth of options" from the 50-years of S35 lens development.

 

[TomTheDP]

I hope S35 becomes the norm again. 

[IronFilm]

The LF obsession was always a temporary short term thing (to be able to shoot 4K with ARRI cameras) while we waited for the next generation of the ARRI sensor. Which has now arrived, and is here. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The LF obsession was always a temporary short term thing (to be able to shoot 4K with ARRI cameras) while we waited for the next generation of the ARRI sensor. Which has now arrived, and is here. 

I hope that logic applies in reality, and from that Cooke video, it looks like maybe it is.

Did you seeing the shift towards larger sensors, and now away from them, in your travels?  Or are those cameras too high end for the projects you're on?

[TomTheDP]

I think it's a combo of the DSLR craze and new filmmakers coming from that mindset of using 35mm photography cameras. Combined with the only 4k ARRI option being LF. 

All the younger people I know gravitate towards film and more classic cinematography. I think things will trend in that direction more. Though I imagine a large amount of stuff will always be shot LF going forward. 

It is awesome to see ARRI continuing to be adamant on not needing more than 4k and S35. The original Alexa mini still gets a lot of use on higher end stuff. 

For the last couple years really big budget stuff is pretty much dominated by the Alexa LF. It will be interesting to see when and what productions choose the Alexa 35 over it.
 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:27 AM, Eric Calabros said:

Once a landscape photographer said all I want is a 90mm f/4 to be optically flawless at f/4, but nobody makes that, because they think nobody would pay good money for that.

You can always design a relatively compact full frame lens to show cinematic character at f/4. But the industry is focusing on "general purpose" approach with high profit margin. 

If some manufacturer managed to do very compact and very good quality f/5.6 zooms, I would move to FF.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:18 PM, IronFilm said:

Let's compromise and meet in the middle, and admit 1.5x is the "most cinematic". 

 

[kye]

6 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

All the younger people I know gravitate towards film and more classic cinematography. I think things will trend in that direction more. Though I imagine a large amount of stuff will always be shot LF going forward.

These young people, are they expressing this interest in a film-making context?  Are they film students?  

I'm curious...  I've never known what the cool kids were doing!

[IronFilm]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:22 PM, kye said:

I hope that logic applies in reality, and from that Cooke video, it looks like maybe it is.

Did you seeing the shift towards larger sensors, and now away from them, in your travels?  Or are those cameras too high end for the projects you're on?

I work on productions with ARRI cameras all the time. REDs etc less often. Because on the high end RED doesn't exist much. And in the mid range RED struggles against the massive popularity of Sony FX series (or  before that the Sony FS7. Or

to a lesser extent, Blackmagic). Peak popularity for RED was in the distant past, it isn't now in 2023. 

Have worked on only a handful using one of the ARRI LF cameras (usually the Mini LF), a small enough number I could count it on my fingers. 

The standard Alexa Mini was still by far the most massively popular option (or one of the other ARRIs if it was a lower budget production, & couldn't afford a Mini). 

At least that was my personal experience over the last few years. 

Rather oddly, Panasonic Varicam (full size or LT) would be in my top three cameras I most commonly work with. (first and second being the ARRI Mini & Sony FS7, although I don't see a FS7 around so often in the last couple of years) Fourth place might go to the Blackmagic URSA Mini. 

However, Panasonic Varicam is only so "popular" in my personal rankings because there is one particular production company (which is massive) that I've worked for quite a lot, and they seem to like it on their shows. I for instance just got home from booming on location for a tv series using 2x Panasonic Varicam S35. Next couple of days I'll be in the studio, and they'll be using three Panasonic Varicam S35 cameras!

I'm quite sure however my experience is fairly atypical, and for others the Panasonic Varicam won't even rate in their top twenty cameras they have worked with in recent years. 

And no point was LF ever a popular format I came across! Unless it was an absolutely no budget at all production using a Sony a7S or similar as their A Cam, or a micro budget production using the a7S (or similar) as their B / C Cam. 

There were not a tonne of Mini LFs around (although I'll admit the seemed to have brief flash moment of popularity). RED Monstros I've almost never worked with. REDs are just not that common. (I've worked with the RED Komodo though on a handful of productions). Sony FX6/FX9 have got a fair bit of popularity, but I'd say mainly because they're the natural successor to the FS7 and not because they're LF.  However I only seem to work with them occasionally. I guess because I'm more in the narrative world, and FX6/FX9 are super rare in that, unless it is ultra low budget. 

[IronFilm]

The ability to edit my message timed out, so adding my final sentence here:

5 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Sony FX6/FX9 have got a fair bit of popularity, but I'd say mainly because they're the natural successor to the FS7 and not because they're LF.  However I only seem to work with them occasionally. I guess because I'm more in the narrative world, and FX6/FX9 are super rare in that, unless it is ultra low budget. 

 Those times I come across the FX6/FX9 are: very occasionally on ultra low budget shorts films I do (but it's unusual! It's more normal to see a non-Mini ARRI, or a Blackmagic camera), or low budget adverts, or corporates, or reality tv shoots. 

Which while I do those types of shoots as well now or then, I do however tend to do narrative more often. 

Edit: ohhhh... I forgot Sony VENICE! Worked on a small number of those, and of course that's LF format. 

12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

There were not a tonne of Mini LFs around (although I'll admit the seemed to have brief flash moment of popularity).

Maybe if I exclusively worked on high end productions, then perhaps I might have seen a brief period of time of a year or two when the majority I worked on was either Sony VENICE or ARRI Mini LF. 

But because I work such a massively broad range of productions from low budget, to medium budget, to high budget then there was always a mix of original ARRI Mini / other ARRIs /  FS7 / URSA Mini / Komodo / Gemini / etc making sure that S35 was still frequently in the mix! 

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The ability to edit my message timed out, so adding my final sentence here:

 Those times I come across the FX6/FX9 are: very occasionally on ultra low budget shorts films I do (but it's unusual! It's more normal to see a non-Mini ARRI, or a Blackmagic camera), or low budget adverts, or corporates, or reality tv shoots. 

Which while I do those types of shoots as well now or then, I do however tend to do narrative more often. 

Edit: ohhhh... I forgot Sony VENICE! Worked on a small number of those, and of course that's LF format. 

Maybe if I exclusively worked on high end productions, then perhaps I might have seen a brief period of time of a year or two when the majority I worked on was either Sony VENICE or ARRI Mini LF. 

But because I work such a massively broad range of productions from low budget, to medium budget, to high budget then there was always a mix of original ARRI Mini / other ARRIs /  FS7 / URSA Mini / Komodo / Gemini / etc making sure that S35 was still frequently in the mix! 

Interesting stuff, thanks for giving a summary.

I think the workhorses represent the quiet majority, with all the discussion going to the exceptions.  It makes sense - the things that would get remarked about are the things that are remarkable, and the unremarkable things aren't worth remarking on.  It's all literally in the dictionary definitions 🙂

Considering that professional equipment should have a very long service life, unless accidentally destroyed a good proportion of the cinema cameras manufactured over the last decade are likely to still be in-use, quietly getting the job done and as they get a bit beaten up over the years will start flying under the radar because the rental houses and studios sell them off to owner/operators and so the cameras don't appear on any sales figures or rental house stats, etc.

[TomTheDP]

15 hours ago, kye said:

These young people, are they expressing this interest in a film-making context?  Are they film students?  

I'm curious...  I've never known what the cool kids were doing!

Yes film students who I assume many will be the next DP's and Directors. Not necessarily the people I know but just in that realm. I feel with the older generation it was trending more towards use the latest and biggest. Now things are more trending nostalgic. 

But that is just my random guess I suppose. 

I read a reddit thread where the author said that it seems like the Venice replaced the Alexa, this was a few years back. I have definitely not seen that. It seems like the LF is the major bread winner on every production. That is easily seen when I constantly look at the specs for a film on IMDB. It is almost always the Alexa mini or mini LF on newer stuff. 

I don't work in commercial but I have some friends that do and they say it is almost always Alexa. You have a few situations where there is a director who likes RED and they use RED, but it is rare. 

Now I am also coming from the perspective of someone who lives in the USA. Looking at american films and the commercial industry in New York City. I definitely think LA and NYC an obsession with ARRI. 

Detroit where I live there seems to be a liking for RED, especially in the music video space. ARRI is getting it's way into those spaces too. I know a production company here that was all RED. But they now have the Alexa mini LF and they seem to use it for their big stuff. 

Chinese TV is apparently pushing 8k hard so I imagine a most of their stuff will be using the Venice 2. There is Top Gun 2, but they probably would have shot ARRI if they didn't need the Rialto. Obviously it does get a lot of use but not like the Alexa. 

I am really curious to see if more Hollywood features and high end streaming shows will use the LF or the Alexa 35 in 2024. Assuming the strikes will have come to and end.

[TomTheDP]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

However, Panasonic Varicam is only so "popular" in my personal rankings because there is one particular production company (which is massive) that I've worked for quite a lot, and they seem to like it on their shows. I for instance just got home from booming on location for a tv series using 2x Panasonic Varicam S35. Next couple of days I'll be in the studio, and they'll be using three Panasonic Varicam S35 cameras!

I'm quite sure however my experience is fairly atypical, and for others the Panasonic Varicam won't even rate in their top twenty cameras they have worked with in recent years. 

 

I am really tempted to get the Varicam LT. I definitely think it is a slept on camera. I guess the Venice really just replaced it. 

It is sort of like an Alexa mini but with a 4k sensor, dual ISO, and a more run and gun friendly body. 

[j_one]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I am really tempted to get the Varicam LT. I definitely think it is a slept on camera. I guess the Venice really just replaced it. 

It is sort of like an Alexa mini but with a 4k sensor, dual ISO, and a more run and gun friendly body. 

It's crazy how they go for $4k used now. Or maybe it's not so crazy, I often forget how much time has passed (it's already 2024?) but it's a great value. I'd be tempted to switch too. By the way, eva1 secondhand prices are even more insane now.

I struggle with the idea of having kit that would get me hired more easily, or at least be "recognizable" by name vs someone asking "what's a varicam?". Hell at least they'll know what an ursa mini is despite its reputation as a lower end camera/brand. I think that's what pushed me to lean towards the ursa vs the eva1 when I started.

For corporate it seems FX line dominates, some Canon. Narrative, its any Alexa with some Venice here and there. Commercial, it's a toss up between any of the big players, including Komodo/Raptor/C300. So I came to the conclusion that if you don't have the trending models in your kit then your strategy to be hired as an owner op by camera model alone is almost a moot point, and you should just get a baseline camera package that YOU prefer and works for your lower-end jobs where renting isn't even in the conversation.

[kye]

10 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Chinese TV is apparently pushing 8k hard so I imagine a most of their stuff will be using the Venice 2. There is Top Gun 2, but they probably would have shot ARRI if they didn't need the Rialto. Obviously it does get a lot of use but not like the Alexa. 

I am really curious to see if more Hollywood features and high end streaming shows will use the LF or the Alexa 35 in 2024. Assuming the strikes will have come to and end.

When I was in South Korea earlier this year they had ads for 8K that were TVs showing demo material - they were everywhere in airports and shopping centres etc.  When you walked up to them and inspected the image it was highly compressed and obviously being streamed from some central location, by the compression that source might have been some other planet - it really was completely trash - probably worse than YT in 1080p.

This strikes me as being an interest in technology for its own sake, rather than for the end result.  I can imagine such a thing driving the whole market in certain places.

I can imagine a shift to the Alexa 35 from even the 65 based on the improved dynamic range and new colour science (LogC V4 vs V3).  The lenses might also be lighter too, although not sure how much that actually influences the big budget productions.

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I don't work in commercial but I have some friends that do and they say it is almost always Alexa. You have a few situations where there is a director who likes RED and they use RED, but it is rare. 

RED had their niche for a little while, when the ARRI cameras were big heavy so not doable on a gimbal (or to fly on a drone, or easily rig up on a car or crane etc). Or even in the pre gimbal era, a steadicam op who can handle a full size ARRI Alexa is expensive. But someone who can fly a stripped down RED body?? You can find them a lot cheaper! (if you're flexible about standards) So you can quickly see the appeal of a RED vs ARRI for say Music Videos. 

Plus if you want to do slow motion, and wanted better quality than the likes of a Sony FS700, then for a very long time your only real choice was RED. 

Sony F5/F55 (and later on, VENICE) however nibbled away at that. 

But once the ARRI Alexa Mini arrived? It crushed the RED and ate it for lunch. 

You've got a gimbal friendly camera that does up to 200fps. 

Only high resolution remained as a "reason" for RED. But for many people that's irrelevant. I think I haven't worked on a single production in the last couple of months that is doing more than FHD! (aside from that one day on an ultra low budget short film, shooting on a P4K) 

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Now I am also coming from the perspective of someone who lives in the USA. Looking at american films and the commercial industry in New York City. I definitely think LA and NYC an obsession with ARRI. 

I don't think it is unique to LA/NYC.

Same here in NZ. 

Anywhere/anybody with tastes tends to go with ARRI. 

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I am really curious to see if more Hollywood features and high end streaming shows will use the LF or the Alexa 35 in 2024. Assuming the strikes will have come to and end.

Newer features, performance, plus the lenses choices will push them to the ARRI 35

[PPNS]

i’m dit-ing a european co-produced feature rn. Theyre shooting on an A35. Almost every feature and tv show here is being on this thing now from what ive heard. The last commercial i was pa-ing on was miniLF.