Official Atomos Shogun thread (4K, A7S, GH4, NX1)

[Ed_David]

best comparison I have seen of the Shogun vs O7Q.  http://wolfcrow.com/blog/fun-comparison-atomos-shogun-vs-the-convergent-design-odyssey-7q/  

 

I am interested in build quality of the Shogun and also how hard is it to see in daylight environments?

[vas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KvdklMpGLE

Atomos Shogun + GH4. I've been looking around for images shot from the combo. The image looks really clean even with Youtube compression.

[Kristoferman]

​by the way:  the shogun of course doesnt affect the sony a7s iso performance or makes it worse.  shogun records as it is.  the a7s lowlight performance is also very good.   it's just not "outstanding, unseen and much better than any canon" good.  it's simply a bit weaker than the 1DC, but still good, especially for the money.  if you want to have internal recording, a great pro photo camera, less rolling shutter etc, you still need to pay the high price for the canon.

​I'm pretty sure the 1DC has similar rolling shutter to the A7S, no?

[douglaurent]

​I'm pretty sure the 1DC has similar rolling shutter to the A7S, no?

​no, really worse

[douglaurent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KvdklMpGLE

Atomos Shogun + GH4. I've been looking around for images shot from the combo. The image looks really clean even with Youtube compression.

​the difference between internal recording and the recording in shogun is hardly visible.  stefan czech did a technical test in his new shogun tutorial video that shows the main difference, here is a screenshot:

[Birk Kromann]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue!

[vas]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue!

​Hardly visible? There is a huge visible difference between 10bit 4:2:2 and 8bit 4:2:0. 

[Kristoferman]

yeah significantly less banding

[Andrew Reid]

​it was the exact same exposure, lens, fstop, shutter, iso setting.  there are lots more frame grabs and videos, and the result is always the same.  people should simply do their own tests and they will see - unfortunately it seems hardly anybody has tested the 1DC in comparison to other cameras, as not too many own it.

Well Doug, first mistake is to shoot S-LOG in low light. Second mistake is you are underexposing. You are using the exposure meter on your main camera (lover?) the 1D C and using the same exposure on the A7S. The A7S in S-LOG needs to be 2 stops to the right.

I've shot with the 1D C at high ISOs and it simply is not as clean as the A7S. Shoot a raw still at the same ISO on both and you will see it for yourself.

[douglaurent]

Well Doug, first mistake is to shoot S-LOG in low light. Second mistake is you are underexposing. You are using the exposure meter on your main camera (lover?) the 1D C and using the same exposure on the A7S. The A7S in S-LOG needs to be 2 stops to the right.

I've shot with the 1D C at high ISOs and it simply is not as clean as the A7S. Shoot a raw still at the same ISO on both and you will see it for yourself.

​if you multiply all options for basic camera settings, in-camera-settings and post production, there are probably a million ways and of course a large amount of different results.  it's just whatever settings i have tried, the a7s never did look sharper or less noisy, except iso numbers that are so noisy on both cameras that you can't use them.  i really have wished i could jump to the a7s and have a better camera plus a lot of money from a sold 1DC as a christmas gift.  but right now the a7s doesnt top the 1DC anywhere, it's just weaker on several levels, while still being very good and good for the price.  it's just not 1/5th as cheap as the competitor AND twice as good.  that rarely does happen unfortunately.

[douglaurent]

​Hardly visible? There is a huge visible difference between 10bit 4:2:2 and 8bit 4:2:0. 

​of course the difference is extremely visible in this technical test, which by the way had to be done to show any difference because it was NOT visible in real world footage.  shooting many hours in many different light environments might bring up situations that show some banding in blue skies etc.  other than that, the shogun didn't seem to make the gh4 footage look different.

[Andrew Reid]

​if you multiply all options for basic camera settings, in-camera-settings and post production, there are probably a million ways and of course a large amount of different results.  it's just whatever settings i have tried, the a7s never did look sharper or less noisy, except iso numbers that are so noisy on both cameras that you can't use them.  i really have wished i could jump to the a7s and have a better camera plus a lot of money from a sold 1DC as a christmas gift.  but right now the a7s doesnt top the 1DC anywhere, it's just weaker on several levels, while still being very good and good for the price.  it's just not 1/5th as cheap as the competitor AND twice as good.  that rarely does happen unfortunately.

​So how did you expose? 1D C meter or A7S? It's not a hard question.

If the A7S wasn't two stops to the right, you've done it wrong.

[Andrew Reid]

tested the sony a7s together with 4k recording in shogun today in direct comparison to the canon 1DC (4k internal recording).   in lowlight and iso ranges of 3200 and above, the 1DC is a bit sharper and has a bit less noise than the a7s.   no big deal, other than the fact that this forum celebrated the a7s as the lowlight king #1, will claim the a7s plus shogun is a new world sensation, and still sees the 1DC as shitty camera.  now together with a shogun mounted on top of a 1DC, the canon combination beats the sony in every aspect except price (which is far less disturbing when taking into account that the value of a used 1DC is also much higher than of an a7s).  the rolling shutter of the a7s also makes the camera unusable in many situations.  the shogun itself is a great tool so far, except its glossy display, unfinished firmware and minor other things.

Allow me to be frank here. You sir, are talking out of your arse.

As a self proclaimed "pro" on these forums you really should do better than to put out biased information especially with the thousands of dollars worth of equipment you're testing out, allegedly. Two Otus lenses for a test and you still can't put good info out there!?

You say the rolling shutter on the A7S makes the camera unusable in many situations. Well the 1D C has the same 25-30ms rolling shutter in 4K approximately so your same criticism applies to that too right? "Unusable in many situations". This most clearly, I think, shows your bias... it's scientifically proven right there.

It's not fair to mislead users through my forum with your bias. You either stop the bias, or leave. I don't work hard on a resource to have it bullshitted up, because someone spent a lot of money on a 1D C and now he has to justify it in the face of cheaper competition.

The 1D C is not cleaner for noise. It just isn't. Again you can look at the raw sensor data at any given ISO and see for yourself.

"The canon combination beats the sony in every aspect except price"

Your reasoning here is because you attach a monitor to give it peaking, suddenly it does everything better? Is MJPEG suddenly a better codec than ProRes now? Does it gain a lens mount you can put all PL lenses straight onto all of a sudden? What about an articulated LCD for low-profile shooting without a monitor or a built in EVF again for the same use? No. I think your posting has a lot to answer for. I'll be awaiting such answers, and then make an editorial decision on whether I will keep onboard certain users of the forum who are really fucking it up for the rest of us at the moment so consider yourself warned.

There are in fact 25 advantages of the A7S over the 1D C for video - http://www.eoshd.com/2014/07/25-ways-sony-a7s-trumps-canon-1d-c/

[Birk Kromann]

I would love to see douglaurent compare the 1Dc to 35mm film. Lol. 

Btw, when is the next part of the review coming up?

[DigitalEd]

Yes still waiting for the NX1 hooked to the Shogun test and more into on it with the new NX1 firmware... Please... Thanks

[hmcindie]

I'm gonna have to back douglaurent here slightly.

The A7s is not much if any better in lowlight in 4k mode than the 1DC.

Andrew is talking about stills where the a7s might be better but in video the 1DC does look sharper and less noise reduced mess than the a7s.

In HD mode the A7s is way better, but in 4k, nope and nope.

Everything Andrew says is going around the bush. He isn't actually even comparing 4k shots from both, just stills from DXOMark. Like that makes a difference in video? But what doug misses is that yes, the 1DC is not exactly "low" in rolling shutter either.

I'd love to go over those "trumps 1DC" points one by one, but I don't think thats appropriate for this thread.

[Andrew Reid]

S-LOG 2 is missing a bit over HDMI to the Shogun and Doug has under-exposed it. You need to compare the A7S in CINE 4 to the 1D C.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall in my own back yard!

[douglaurent]

Allow me to be frank here. You sir, are talking out of your arse.

As a self proclaimed "pro" on these forums you really should do better than to put out biased information especially with the thousands of dollars worth of equipment you're testing out, allegedly. Two Otus lenses for a test and you still can't put good info out there!?

You say the rolling shutter on the A7S makes the camera unusable in many situations. Well the 1D C has the same 25-30ms rolling shutter in 4K approximately so your same criticism applies to that too right? "Unusable in many situations". This most clearly, I think, shows your bias... it's scientifically proven right there.

It's not fair to mislead users through my forum with your bias. You either stop the bias, or leave. I don't work hard on a resource to have it bullshitted up, because someone spent a lot of money on a 1D C and now he has to justify it in the face of cheaper competition.

The 1D C is not cleaner for noise. It just isn't. Again you can look at the raw sensor data at any given ISO and see for yourself.

"The canon combination beats the sony in every aspect except price"

Your reasoning here is because you attach a monitor to give it peaking, suddenly it does everything better? Is MJPEG suddenly a better codec than ProRes now? Does it gain a lens mount you can put all PL lenses straight onto all of a sudden? What about an articulated LCD for low-profile shooting without a monitor or a built in EVF again for the same use? No. I think your posting has a lot to answer for. I'll be awaiting such answers, and then make an editorial decision on whether I will keep onboard certain users of the forum who are really fucking it up for the rest of us at the moment so consider yourself warned.

There are in fact 25 advantages of the A7S over the 1D C for video - http://www.eoshd.com/2014/07/25-ways-sony-a7s-trumps-canon-1d-c/

​

first: no, i am not a self proclaimed pro.  in fact i dont even want or need to be seen or mentioned anywhere on the net.  i am just a private person with an 8 figure revenue record in the media world, owning 30 reference cameras and 160 lenses i can test day and night without pressure, because i am in search of the best available results and technology for future projects i enjoy - and nothing else.

it's funny that i should be the one talking out of my arse, although i tested the 1dc and a7s side by side and also own the 1dc and used it around the world since 2 years, which you did not.  i can only write about what i have seen with my own eyes and don't really care about internet theories, as most you can read is either mass manipulation or based on no research.

i don't have time for public scientific tests, and in this case they are even absolutely useless, as afterwards still hardly anybody would pay the price for a 1dc.  it's also a useless discussion, because no matter if the tests show that the 1dc is a bit better or the a7s is a bit better, they are both on a very high level and useful - and a great combination with the shogun.  by the way - my opinion is backed through someone who made a direct comparison film, but does not want to see it released as he works for sony.

my main point still is:  it's stupid to say that the 1dc is a shitty camera, topped by all new cheap cameras from other manufacturers and canon is a stupid company, while forgetting many facts (especially now, as the shogun has a solution for most that is missing on the 1dc and that you criticize).  we all need canon to deliver cheaper and better products, but they might not listen to powerful forums if the arguments are too one-sided.  i guess most users would still prefer to use a canon mount full frame camera in the longterm and only went to panasonic, samsung etc because of certain features.  anyone who bought and built equipment around the camera of another manufacturer might regret it in 6 months.  historically, canon never was on top of the game at any time.  but looking at their product and technology portfolio, it's likely they will be in the future most of the time, with sony coming in second.

[Birk Kromann]

It still seems you didn't shoot correctly with A7s and with that in mind it makes a lot of sense that you see a big difference between the two. You mention that you have used the 1Dc extensively but not the A7s an that alone, to me at least, makes your statements invalid. That its backed up by a pro working for Sony too is invalid unless you can present his findings. 

If you expose the A7s "correctly" (meaning not ETTR) you will get more noise because the sensor needs the extra 1 or 2 stops of light. The 1Dc on the other hand works best if you expose it "correctly" Even with this taken into consideration I still don't find it realistic that the 1Dc can be as sensitive. Unfortunately I don't have a 1Dc so I can test it for my self.

[Andrew Reid]

​i don't have time for public scientific tests

​Well, that much is evident!