Official Atomos Shogun thread

[Andrew Reid]

Unfortunately the previous thread had to be locked due to a bug in the new forum software. This one should work 100%.

Let's continue where we picked off here - http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/7671-official-atomos-shogun-thread-4k-a7s-gh4-nx1/

[douglaurent]

Unfortunately the previous thread had to be locked due to a bug in the new forum software. This one should work 100%.

Let's continue where we picked off here - http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/7671-official-atomos-shogun-thread-4k-a7s-gh4-nx1/

​probably it would make sense to wait until the end of january 2015 for a final shogun evaluation, when the firmware does include fixes and full features vor a7s, gh4 etc.

it's possible to see a 5d4, a7s2, gh5 and maybe an even more attractive new camera in 2015 - that also might include a swivel screen with focus peaking, noiseless lowlight and internal 4k recording.

 

 theoretically, selling the a7s and shogun for a new camera will then make you lose app 1000 euros, and this system has cost you 5 euros per day.

at the same time a canon 1dc user who bought it in january 2013 like me will lose 3000 euros from its new paid price, which makes it app 3.30 euros per day.

plus: the canon lowlight full frame 4k camera could have been used 2 years longer in productions than the sony product, giving it a huge historical advantage artistically and incomewise.

 

there are many more facts that make a product which is cheaper at first look might not be cheaper at all, when looking at all these new smaller 4k camera systems.

this starts with VAT: nobody who works professionally does have to pay that amount in reality.

an a7s plus shogun (so the sony can do 4k) does cost 3600 euros plus VAT, the canon 1dc does cost 8000 euros plus VAT.

that roughly makes the canon a 2.3x more expensive 4k camera, not a 5x more expensive camera.

 

there are also tax write off effects.  if you pay 45% taxes like me, the difference between the a7s and 1dc again becomes much more narrow.

if you rent out a camera system that did cost much more, it's also more likely you will earn more through it.

this is why a red epic does bring at least 10x more than a 5d3, which - at least for me - makes an expensive camera much more attractive, even if film clients don't require it.

instead of meeting rent clients 10x, i only have to meet them 2x when handing out a red to make the same amount of money.

 

if you take ALL financial and longterm aspects into account, the conclusion is:

the a7s is not as cheap as it looks, and the 1dc is not as expensive as it looks.

and the shogun as well is not expensive, especially if you use it with an a7s that is no 4k camera without it.

[noa]

 theoretically, selling the a7s and shogun for a new camera will then make you lose app 1000 euros, and this system has cost you 5 euros per day.

at the same time a canon 1dc user who bought it in january 2013 like me will lose 3000 euros from its new paid price, which makes it app 3.30 euros per day.

 

I was never that good at math but how do you end up at 3,3 euro per day on a 1dc vs 5 euro per day on a camera that costs 2,3 times less, even with the loss you make after a resell that doesn't make much sense.

- at least for me - makes an expensive camera much more attractive, even if film clients don't require it.

 

​You can look at it from another angle, spend 4,2k on a a7s and shogun recorder and spend 6,8k on lenses and other gear up to the price point of a 1dc body only, from a business perspective that is a much better investement, the same rules apply for your tax write offs as you spend the same amount of money yet you have a full production ready camera vs a camerabody only.

[wjkotze]

Andrew, can you give an indication what the current problem is with the recording of s-log 2 on the Shogun. 

[douglaurent]

I was never that good at math but how do you end up at 3,3 euro per day on a 1dc vs 5 euro per day on a camera that costs 2,3 times less, even with the loss you make after a resell that doesn't make much sense.

​You can look at it from another angle, spend 4,2k on a a7s and shogun recorder and spend 6,8k on lenses and other gear up to the price point of a 1dc body only, from a business perspective that is a much better investement, the same rules apply for your tax write offs as you spend the same amount of money yet you have a full production ready camera vs a camerabody only.

​3000 euros loss for 900 days with a 1dc is a better daily money ratio than 1000 euros loss for 200 days with an a7s+shogun.   my 1dc price arguments are also just one example, why nearly all of the 25 points mentioned in this forum why the a7s is so much better do have tons of completely different point of views.  so it is great to have a blog that takes care of the right topics, and also goes in depth and detail of products, but then occasionally forgets a lot of facts.  this is a general problem of worldwide media, which brought journalism to its worst state ever through the creative freedom and financial pressure caused by the internet.  most things you read are either black or white, but hardly ever unbiased or just made purely for the benefit of the reader.    

[Guest]

 

[Oliver Daniel]

Hello douglaurent, regardless of whether you are right or not in saying the 1DC is "better" than the A7S, the argument is boring and frankly a waste of time. Both can capture lovely images. Leave it as that. 

I'm more interested in how the Shogun would benefit my work on a creative level, and if those benefits are enough to influence my next camera purchase. I change bodies every 2 years so it's time to choose. ?

[douglaurent]

Hello douglaurent, regardless of whether you are right or not in saying the 1DC is "better" than the A7S, the argument is boring and frankly a waste of time. Both can capture lovely images. Leave it as that. 

I'm more interested in how the Shogun would benefit my work on a creative level, and if those benefits are enough to influence my next camera purchase. I change bodies every 2 years so it's time to choose. ?

​i didn't start the 1DC / A7S discussion, it was the blog owner who said until yesterday that the A7S is a 25:0 winner.   now indeed the shogun marks a relevant point for the A7S, because only since then the A7S is a 4k camera and comparable to a 1DC, GH4 or any other camera you still might be able to film with professionally in 5 years.  without the shogun, in 2013 and 2014 a 1DC had no competitor because there was no lowlight 4k fullframe camera out there.  now thanks to the shogun, in 2015 many users will have a great new cheap 1DC alternative thanks to the shogun.  and all 1DC users have a much better camera thanks to the shogun as well including flexible screen and focus peaking.  i just wish it would be mentioned by the blow owner that we have a 25:25 result here between the two cameras, and not 25:0.  otherwise each and every new test of new products can mean again that there are dozens of facts who are forgotten, which makes such internet resources useless and implies everything has to be bought and tested on your own.

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

OK, this is the last time I take the bait and wade into 1D C la la land again. Then the discussion has to go back to the Shogun. Remember, the NX1 and GH4 are also in the mix here with the Shogun and 4K ProRes.

This is the article Doug is moaning about http://www.eoshd.com/2014/07/25-ways-sony-a7s-trumps-canon-1d-c/

As far as I can see, he hasn't got an argument about the facts in the article, just a lot of hot air.

To summerise:

A7S is full frame. 1D C is a 1.3x crop. You lose the edges of your full frame lenses and go outside the edges of your APS-C lenses. Not much of an advantage is that.

A7S is better in low light. I can expose a clean image at 25,600 and get usable results way beyond. 1D C is ok at 6400 but noisy at 12,800.

Codec - A7S goes to ProRes for 4K. With the 1D C you are stuck to MJPEG, which isn't as efficient. Granted it is internal though, so call it a draw on that one for 4K. The internal 1080p codec & quality is better on the A7S. The 1D C only does acceptably high quality 1080p out of the HDMI port, and even then it is an APS-C crop, not full frame.

If you need 30p the A7S does it in 4K. 1D C does not.

Shogun SSD media cheaper for 4K recording than buying tons of big fast compact flash cards for MJPEG 4K on the 1D C.

Then to round it out, A7S does not need sending to service centre for firmware update. Price difference. Mirrorless lens mount. EVF. Smaller, lighter, silent shutter for stills (12MP raws). PL lens compatibility.

On the 1D C side, you have internal 4K recording so handy for without a recorder, but thing is you need the screen, because the live-view functionality and focus aids are all stills based on the 1D C and useless for shooting video. Not so on the A7S.

I can't see the problem with the logic here. 1D C has a lovely image. It's a better stills camera. It has internal 4K. It's more robustly built and looks more professional. It has a native Canon mount for those who use a lot of EF lenses. But it doesn't have much else over the A7S considering the $8000-10,000 or so price difference.

[Andrew Reid]

As a twist of fate would have it, found a used 1D C for £4999 and it arrives Tuesday. C U next Tuesday 1D C

Now we will see what it's really made of vs the A7S and Shogun.

[maxotics]

Andrew would you take contributions to a fund for hiring a model for some of your testing, like the 1DC/A7S shoot-out?  The more I do this the more I remain convinced that skin-tones are the easiest way to judge how the cameras handle color.  I would imagine you could get some local actors/actresses or musicians to sit in a chair for an hour or two.

[Guest]

Doug seems more like a "Dick" to me. I'd say his argument is dead in the water...

 

 

 

[1tkman]

As a twist of fate would have it, found a used 1D C for £4999 and it arrives Tuesday. C U next Tuesday 1D C

Now we will see what it's really made of vs the A7S and Shogun.

​"For the man who has everything..."  

Sounds great! Looking forward to 2015! 

[Cinegain]

It's running for £5,790.83 ( £6,949.00 inc VAT ) on http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_eos_1d_c&utm_source=geizhals&utm_medium=shop&utm_campaign=feed ...

If I were to get it here, it would set me back £9,400.00. Pwoah. Expensive little thing. Although, let's leave 'little' out of there, it's kingsized. Would be interesting to see once having played around with it a bit, what you think of it compared to some of the other 4K camera bodies out there... A7S, GH4 and NX1. Although, I bet the 1D C will be pretty awesome to work with. Just not sure if it's the same kind of value for money though. And spending all that money, I'd kinda rather want to have a go at the FS7.

[Andrew Reid]

It's definitely not as good value for money at £7k new as the FS7.

It's not as good value as the NX1 or GH4 if you just want 4K.

My reasoning was... £4999 was a good price so hard to turn down, compared to the £10,000 it was new just a few months ago, and it will replace quite a few of my stills cameras, especially the 5D Mark III so can use it for that quite long term, and it would be a great benchmark for a lot of other 4K cameras and the A7S with Shogun. Plus sometimes it is nice to use a camera just bare bones without the recorder especially in bad weather, the Shogun isn't weather sealed. NX1 is good for this too but you need to transcode and keep it under ISO 1600, plus I have such a lot of Canon glass I can't control the aperture properly on it with.

Part of me thinks I should have just got an FS7!!

But I do love the 1D C's image and stills.

[Cinegain]

Hum, true story.

Value for money is less relevant if you don't have too much problem with spending money, a camera is already a way better deal than it used to be and it gives you features and handling that are hard to be rivaled. In that case you get a nice return of investment in the form of a huge grin on your face because you can use it like a 5DmkIII for stills and video, with the same great lenses (without the funky adapters) and get 4K from it... it does look like a great allrounder for sure.

For me personally, money is rather relevant, I can't see me using something allround that is this big and if I were to spend that kind of money and get awesome video, I'd lean towards the FS7, keeping the 5DmkIII/A7S/whatever you already have that does both well, as the allrounder. But that's totally different reasoning. For your reasoning it actually does make a lot of sense to get the 1D C. That's gonna be one hell of a Tuesday! Enjoy.

[douglaurent]

​"For the man who has everything..."  

Sounds great! Looking forward to 2015! 

​instead of discussing all the details behind the pros and cons of old cameras again, we should see this within a historical timeline, as technology is always evolving:

 2013/1 - 2014/6:         no 4k dslr competitor for the canon 1DC available            

2014/6 - 2014/12:       GH4 adds strong alternative, although it is no lowlight or fullframe option

2014/12 - 2015:          shogun makes the sony A7S a strong 1DC competitor (plus other small 4K cameras with limitations are on the market)

2015:                          canon will release a 5D4, C300/2 and 50MP DSLR, probably all with 4K video.  sony might bring an A7S2 with internal stabilizer, nikon might enter the 4K market, panasonic release a GH5 and more brands will come up with probaly positively surprising 4K video products.

2016/1:                       all cameras we are using now in 2014/12 are already topped by better products, while 1080p monitors/recordes like the shogun are in common use and have more and cheaper competitors.  the future seems to be bright.

for now: if tests can show a clear outstanding strength of the A7S in comparison, i would be very happy!  in fact i would buy a 200 euro casio camera tomorrow and use that if it tops the 1DC.  unless the cheaper camera prices don't kill the imaging industry, affordable prices are always great.  the time when the imaging industry is near dead is also probably the time when finally cameras can last for 10 years again.

[Andrew Reid]

The timeline of doom is why I am so reluctant to invest more than £3k in a camera with £5k being my current absolute stretch because of depreciation. It's a bit like being one of those early adopters of high end 4K TVs when they were £20k and now they are £2k! At least if the GH4 halves in price you've only lost £700.

Canon's gear does tend to hold its value well and the 1D C is a bit of a rarity, very few come up used. I'm surprised the first ones used I've seen have gone for £5k, I think they can get more than that.

I also think there comes a point where the revolutions are going to be less satisfying. Even if we get 8K next, will we need it? Many don't even need 4K. And global shutter is surely going to be commonplace in future but rolling shutter has rarely bothered me because of my style of shooting.

To go significantly better than the 1D C we'd be looking at 8K, global shutter, 10bit codec, in manageable file sizes and improvements to the bare bones ergonomics for video. Being based on the stills line, the 1D C Mark II likely won't get such a big bump in spec or video-orientated ergonomics and it might even be 4 years away.

The A7S II with IBIS, 4K internal, etc. would be very nice and certainly offer a compelling alternative but it doesn't exist yet and is also likely some years off yet.

I am going to have to try very hard to resist the temptation to justify my purchase... 5 bloody grand... when it comes to shooting & testing with the 1D C on EOSHD in the coming days, try to be impartial. It's very difficult. I'm mega excited about it. For £5k used it is much more attractive and that is much closer to the price it should have been from the start. Canon really did a bad thing putting all the exciting tech into inaccessible gear and serving up reheated cold turkey for the prosumer video market.

[Hitfabryk]

Congrats, but  I didn't see that coming..I thought the Shogun would make you're AS7 complete with all the benefits..

 Did you bought it from Douglaurent?

[douglaurent]

The timeline of doom is why I am so reluctant to invest more than £3k in a camera with £5k being my current absolute stretch because of depreciation. It's a bit like being one of those early adopters of high end 4K TVs when they were £20k and now they are £2k! At least if the GH4 halves in price you've only lost £700.

Canon's gear does tend to hold its value well and the 1D C is a bit of a rarity, very few come up used. I'm surprised the first ones used I've seen have gone for £5k, I think they can get more than that.

I also think there comes a point where the revolutions are going to be less satisfying. Even if we get 8K next, will we need it? Many don't even need 4K. And global shutter is surely going to be commonplace in future but rolling shutter has rarely bothered me because of my style of shooting.

To go significantly better than the 1D C we'd be looking at 8K, global shutter, 10bit codec, in manageable file sizes and improvements to the bare bones ergonomics for video. Being based on the stills line, the 1D C Mark II likely won't get such a big bump in spec or video-orientated ergonomics and it might even be 4 years away.

The A7S II with IBIS, 4K internal, etc. would be very nice and certainly offer a compelling alternative but it doesn't exist yet and is also likely some years off yet.

I am going to have to try very hard to resist the temptation to justify my purchase... 5 bloody grand... when it comes to shooting & testing with the 1D C on EOSHD in the coming days, try to be impartial. It's very difficult. I'm mega excited about it. For £5k used it is much more attractive and that is much closer to the price it should have been from the start. Canon really did a bad thing putting all the exciting tech into inaccessible gear and serving up reheated cold turkey for the prosumer video market.

​indeed 5k pounds / 6400 euros / 7.800 USD is a very good price for the 1DC.  this most likely means that even if you sell it in 200 days, you can find somebody who pays the same.  i have calculated in selling for no less than 7000 euros.   right now the 1DC is still the best all-in-one camera when it comes to combining photo and 4k video, although each single aspect might be topped by other cameras.  combined with a shogun the 1DC is a lot of fun, especially for a one man team.  even better, the 1.3x crop and the new tamron 16-300 lens made it possible to film with longest zoom range that there ever was in one lens on a DSLR, INCLUDING wide angle.  in 4K video mode, the 16-300 can be used from 18mm on, which makes it nearly like a 23-390mm lens that tops all 28-300 full frame zooms out there.  stopped down the tamron sharpness is okay, and the 1DC allows you to raise ISO6400 without a problem as well for it.  combined with the comfort of a top monitor and the right skills you can shoot a complete and very good looking 4k documentary with one piece in your hands (1DC+16-300+Shogun).  connect an external mic to the shogun and add a nice light carbon tripod with a good small sachtler or vinten head, you pay 10.000 euros and have a super fun, very fast and still high quality filming combination for a one man shooter (of course more lenses and extra people would help!).