Canon 1D C used price slips under £5000 - and why I decided to take the gamble and get one

[sam]

    The main benefit comes from the exposure and focus aids, not to mention if shooting anamorphic, the image stretch.  As for ergonomics, you are correct. You still keep your hands exactly where you always would with full access to every button, with the added benefit of being able to reach the buttons from the evf (for false color or zebres for instance) without your hand leaving the camera as it would if mounted elsewhere.  The bottom handle is just for carrying (camera strap would also work) Magnetic mount would be nice, but the finder is snap on, and then you have to find someplace to store or hang from a strap and then realign when needed again.  Rhode mic threads right in.   I don't use mine rigged like this often,  but it does come in handy for keeping a lower profile.   Also, if shooting low angle, easily adjustable.    

[AccordingToMe]

    The main benefit comes from the exposure and focus aids, not to mention if shooting anamorphic, the image stretch. 

​My first casual glance neglected to see that it was an EVF. With the features you outline, some chunkiness would be in order. Especially if the mic simply gets relocated—still available. All good.

I guess the handle remains redundant for me. When shooting one hand holds the lens for stability and focus. To carry around, I use a Spiderholster Pro personally. There's no better way to carry a camera—according to me. 

[noa]

pay the price of admission and you've got an isolated market up for grabs.

You don't need to, just hire whatever camera your project needs,  nearby my place there is a rental house, 350 euro for a Sony PMW-F55 body which is just one of the many high end videocamera's they have available, if you need to impress your clients and expand your business you might buy a "cheap" camera like a 1DC that you might use for your personal projects and some paid ones but every project will have different needs and just having one 1DC in your gearbag might result in not getting a high paying job depending on the clients needs. A real "professional" doesn't buy a camera like a 1DC which is crippled in video functionality like any other canon DSLR, they rent a real videocamera so they always have the best gear money can buy at any moment in time.

[AccordingToMe]

You don't need to, just hire whatever camera your project needs.

​Of course you can rent. That's a whole other strategy/mentality. It's a valid business choice. I assumed it was clear to everyone that my perspective is that of an owner/operator.

The part you quote from me was regarding the very specialised Hasselblad medium format market. It's significantly smaller than the generic video market and much business is done via networking and recommendations.

A real "professional" doesn't buy a camera like a 1DC which is crippled in video functionality like any other canon DSLR…

​There are several words missing between 'real' and 'professional' for that sentence to make sense and not look straight up derogatory.

"A real golf professional doesn't by a camera like…"

"A real professional chef doesn't by a camera like…"

"A real video professional, who needs traditional video camera features currently lacking on a 1Dc, doesn't by a camera like…"

I can assure you that there are plenty of 1Dc owners who are professional photographers and videographers. That makes your statement false, unless you flesh it out a bit.

…they rent a real videocamera so they always have the best gear money can buy at any moment in time.

​I am sure you can do business that way too. Most clients are totally oblivious to cameras and the technology behind them. But I don't doubt for a second that catch phrases and name dropping can get you business, if that's how you want to run it.

[lafilm]

I mentioned this quite some time ago on this site.

Shane Hurlbut was the DP on a Canon 1D C short film. It's called "The Ticket". He screened it for an audience (director was in house, cannot remember her name) in LA if I remember correctly at the Los Angeles Film School on Sunset Blvd.

Viewing the short on a 75 foot screen was a revelation. 

Yes, the short itself was full of cliches and weak acting. Hurlbut hammed it up in front of the director and said it was his greatest experience. Poppycock! 

Nontheless, the visuals were absolutely stunning. Let me repeat: Stunning.

Even as a old school film guy, I really couldn't believe the images I was seeing on the big screen from a $15,000 dslr.

People can debate all day long about the cam and compare it to new models, etc...

However I know what I saw on the Big Screen.

Used or not, it was a Brilliant move by AR to purchase a Canon 1D C.

Looking forward to see what this site owner produces with it.

[noa]

But I don't doubt for a second that catch phrases and name dropping can get you business, if that's how you want to run it.

Or you can buy yourself a 1DC and call yourself a pro, that might work to 

Maybe show a littlebit of what you do, talk is cheap.

[AccordingToMe]

No listen, like I said before: 

The price of a 1dc is so high it's only used by professionals who make a living out of it and they have more demanding clients, they don't need a hacked camera that can be unreliable on a shoot.

​Wait… what?

[noa]

Just what I thought, you talk better then you shoot  Show us what nice things you do on your camera. I know Andrew will do soon enough. maybe show something from that 12K you made from your first 1DC job you did, I"m curious, really. I"ll take my hat off if you shoot as well as you can talk.

[Andrew Reid]

AccordingToMe - you're not making the forum a nicer place with your pomp and unpleasent attitude, I suggest you tone it down.

[AccordingToMe]

AccordingToMe - you're not making the forum a nicer place with your pomp and unpleasent attitude, I suggest you tone it down.

​Re-read the thread and you'll find that my only interest is to share information and insight. I do not critique peoples efforts, opinions (see below) or creative work.

If anyone shares opinion as fact, I will try to correct it if I think I know better—based on sound reasoning or by linking to actual information. If people go out of their way to argue about something, I might run with it for a bit. My posts are rational and motivated. 

My opinions are probably consistent over time. Everything changes, but if I do a turn around I'll admit that I was wrong and explain why I changed my mind.

There is nothing inflammatory in my posts. Perhaps with the exception that I do tend to point out where someone's reasoning doesn't add up. It can be very annoying for someone who always wants to be right to learn that they are in fact wrong.

I want to be right all the time, but I don't have to be. I'll always accept the truth, "not because someone said so" but because "someone proved it". Everything else is speculation, which is also fine. It just has to be worded as such.

[jase]

Finding the stabilisation with the 35mm F2.0 IS very solid.

Did I mention I love the image!? 

​Andrew, sorry for the digging (and hijacking this thread at the same time!), but since you got the Canon lens as well as the Oly EM1 - what is your opinion about level of stabilisation? Does the lens get close to the EM1?

[Andrew Reid]

Like this?  Zacuto evf mounted upside down for quick flipdown  finder

​What hotshoe mount is in use there and where does the image come from? Thanks.

[Andrew Reid]

​Andrew, sorry for the digging (and hijacking this thread at the same time!), but since you got the Canon lens as well as the Oly EM1 - what is your opinion about level of stabilisation? Does the lens get close to the EM1?

​Only as good if you have a very steady hand.

Olympus in body stabilisation still the leader, but it can be prone to distortion at wide angle.

[sam]

 

 

What hotshoe mount is in use there and where does the image come from? Thanks.

 

​

 The mount is something I made, but is basically just an extension from the hotshoe with a mini ballhead. I think Amazon has hotshoe extenders http://www.amazon.com/HDE-HDE%C2%AE-Camera-Flash-Bracket/dp/B005EHGX64/ref=sr_1_sc_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1420669158&sr=8-4-spell&keywords=hotshoe+extender that may work?

I took the pic in early 2013 after thinking some about the design of the digital bolex.   Off topic, but  I think something like google glass, with a video feed and camera stats directly in front of your eyes so you are free to hold a camera however you wish would be an almost perfect way to monitor a camera. No glare, lightweight,  Probably not too far off!

[sam]

   4k and shallow depth of field makes focus difficult as does exposing log without proper assists, So I use this when blending in isn't as important

 I use an Osprey pack and Think tank straps attached to the camera and cinched up tight.  This distributes the weight of the camera to the pack and adds stability (kind of like an easy rig) and then use the grip with my thumb in the notch on the follow focus.  Just stash the camera in the pack for transport

[jpfilmz]

Got a bit of interesting news.  I just got back fro CES in Las Vegas.  I visited the Canon Cinema booth and had a chance to look at the 7D mark 2 and the 1DC.  I really love the auto focusing capabilities of the 7D.  It's really impressive and I may pick one up.  In regards to the 1DC.  They told me to not be surprised to see a price drop this year on the 1DC to something close to what Andrew got his for.  They said it would be in response to the Sony FS700's price point.  I asked about the possibility of a 1DC mark 2.  They said that it would occur in the future, but no estimated dates were given.  The Dual Pixel auto focus on the 1DC or 5D...or any full frame offering would not be offered/very low possisbilty. Apparently, it's very hard to engineer on full frame cameras and easier on APS-C cameras like the 7D and the C100 series.  I didn't ask why.  I happened to have my Blackmagic Pocket camera with me and they spoke highly of it's image. They also mentioned that they love what magic lantern was doing with 5D RAW but hated that they were not working more closely with the magic lantern community.  Note...these appeared to be american canon reps.  

[Andrew Reid]

   4k and shallow depth of field makes focus difficult as does exposing log without proper assists, So I use this when blending in isn't as important

 I use an Osprey pack and Think tank straps attached to the camera and cinched up tight.  This distributes the weight of the camera to the pack and adds stability (kind of like an easy rig) and then use the grip with my thumb in the notch on the follow focus.  Just stash the camera in the pack for transport

​Thanks for the rigging ideas sam.

Here's one I've come up with, for bare bones shooting with articulated monitor, as small and as light as possible...

Monitor is an EVF too with loupe. Kinotechnik. Review of that soon. It's a good screen, boots in less than 1 second. Very quick to get a signal too.

[PaperBag]

I think Andrew always lusted after a 1DC! The 25 reasons the a7s trumps a 1dc had an undertone of trying to persuade himself why he didn't need one.

(By the way, if you count his bolded headings, does Andrew in fact list 26 reasons rather than 25? I guess the number is debatable anyway: "they both have a crop mode" probably doesn't count as an advantage of the a7s; maybe "high price" is essentially the same reason as "potential for depreciation"; and maybe "inefficient codec" is very close to "SSD is cheaper".)

The question that fascinates me: everything else aside (cost, ergonomics, video functions), which camera produces the better image? Is it even possible to say, or is the matter too subjective and project-dependent?

If you go through Andrew's list, I think the image-quality advantages he gives to a7s+Shogun are: low light; full frame; dynamic range; better internal 1080; ability to use Leica M; more flexibility with S-Log 2. And one factor he doesn't mention is higher frames rates at 720. In contrast, what are the image-quality advantages of a 1dc? Is it anything more than "Canon colours are better than Sony colours", which is surely a subjective thing?

I find old Andrew persuasive on the image quality front, at least on paper -- I'd be very keen to see any comparisons and tests!

I think the main things that have changed with the "versus" question is: (1) cost factors; and (2) weighing against all the ergonomic and video functionality advantages of the a7s is "A 1dc doesn't need an external box", and maybe new Andrew would be inclined to give that factor higher weight than the Andrew that wrote the list.

[Andrew Reid]

I'll do a detailed image comparison between the 1D C and A7S soon on EOSHD so look out for that.

Even after owning the 1D C I can't argue with some of the ways the A7S is superior, but most of those relate to it as a 1080p camera.

When you rig it up with an external recorder for 4K it becomes something rather different ergonomically. It isn't a small mirrorless camera with EVF any more. In fact you can't use the EVF at all whilst it is outputting 4K. It just didn't deliver what I needed. The screen visibility and battery life of the Shogun became a pretty big issue for me, whilst as a 1080p camera I had neither problem, at least with the battery grip and a few spares!

So here I was in a predicament. The Shogun on the one hand was a fantastic piece of technology and I'm going to get some more use out of it for sure, once I solve the issue of seeing the screen outdoors and powering it properly, and the ergonomics of rigging it to such small cameras.

But the main predicament was that although I had quite a few beautiful images coming out of the various cameras I owned, they all had practical flaws.

I wanted the colour, dynamic range and full frame loveliness I was getting with Magic Lantern raw video on the 5D Mark III, but the file sizes were even larger than the 1D C for plain old 1080p. Reliability also an issue, I found the 1000x komputerbay cards kept going through slow phases (possibly due to file system fragmentation) and especially at higher ISOs the recording would keep stopping. The problem with 1080p is it isn't a future proof format. It will be consigned to the dustbin. Not like Super 8 or 16mm or film which creep back over time for their artistic qualities. 1080p will just go to the grave I feel, like 720 and SD. If it comes back as a retro format it will have a particular look like VHS in the future and so be very niche, not like super 16mm film which is more flexible in the way it looks, so can be used for a broad range of filmmaking even in 2015.

The NX1 and GH4 shoot 4K internally but their images are a little too compressed. The NX1 holds onto a lot of fine detail but doesn't have a grain character to speak of in plain shaded areas. However the image isn't so much the issue - it is the lack of active Canon EF adapter to NX mount and the lack of low light performance once you get past ISO 1600. I will still be using my NX1 when I need the smallest file sizes and super 35mm sensor in good light, and the upcoming firmware will be very interesting. Good b-cam. As is the GH4, will be keeping that, just not for low light!

The A7S ticked the most boxes overall, great in low light, S-LOG with minimal banding, but the need to shoot at ISO 3200 in bright light using strong filtration, the need to add a lens adapter for Canon EF lenses that still doesn't always work right, the need to add the recorder for 4K on a wobbly HDMI cable... all this weigh heavily against it for my purposes.

So to the 1D C, now at around the same price I can sell my GH4, 5D Mk III, 5D Mk II and 7D for which effectively it replaces (although I'll definitely keep the GH4 anyway) it solves a number of problems. First it replaces the 5D Mark III as a stills camera so I can finally get rid of it. It shoots 4K internally and is weather sealed. It has a native mount compatible with my best glass. It works well with the IS on my Canon lenses and no bugs. It is ultra reliable. The image maintains a fine noise grain. It is capable of matching or maybe even exceeding the dynamic range I had from S-LOG2 on the A7S and ML raw on the 5D3. It has colour which is easier to get right from the flat profile (Canon LOG) much like the D750, so takes less work to grade. It especially has better colour in the standard rec.709 picture profiles. It has less moire and aliasing in 4K than the A7S to external recorder, possibly due to stronger OLPF. Yet it resolves the same amount of actual real detail minus the false detail and 4K is enough detail to last me almost forever anyway. It lacks the niceties of the mirrorless cameras though but makes up for it with heft and build quality. No EVF but I've added one without radically changing the form factor or adding too much unbalanced weight. No peaking or focus assists whilst recording but again that is solved by adding the EVF. No mirrorless mount so I can't use my Cooke PLs but these don't cover full frame anyway (so corners would likely be soft in 1.3x). I will use my NX1 for those. Very good internal 1080p in Super 35mm mode and to Ninja Star, but the full frame 1080p isn't as good as the full frame 1080p from the A7S. Those are the things I miss and the banding can rear up sometimes especially at low ISOs in C-LOG but generally I feel there's some logic behind it now at £5k, whereas there wasn't before with so many promising other cameras that I thought would supersede it. They haven't. And the main logic failing of the 1D C was always the price not the image, and the fact they didn't add enough video bells & whistles.

[richg101]

I have no intention of hindering the ergonomics of the a7s with a shogun just to get 4k.  It's 1080p internal is flawless IMO.  if it shot 4k in camera with the same dynamic range as 1080p internal then the playing field would be more level.  to be able to attach a z finder and shoot 4k without any hdmi crap is what makes the 1dc interesting to me.   However at the moment the e-mount is something i couldnt leave due to it's adaptability.