Cinema5D review of Canon 650D confirms no fix for moire and aliasing

[Andrew Reid]

[html]

The 550D was released almost exactly 2 years ago and it was a great leveller of the playing field, since it brought similar video quality to the 7D down to a more reasonable price point.

[url="http://www.eoshd.com/content/8211/cinema5d-review-of-canon-650d-confirms-no-fix-for-moire-and-aliasing/"]Read full article[/url]

[/html]

[MattH]

Wow.  Bad show from canon.  After the 5dmkiii I knew the resolution wouldn't be better, but I at least expected the moire and aliasing to be solved.  What reason do I now have to think it will EVER get solved in their 'rebel' line.  Presumably the video in their upcoming mirrorless cameras will be exactly the same, so I might as well forget being exited about them too.

[Germy1979]

Man.  They have royally blew it this year.  If it weren't for the market sweeping up the 5D2 by the boatloads back when it started the revolution, would they have even pursued a Cinema line?...  Probably not.  It was blind luck to begin with.  So, they took the 5D, and fixed just enough so we'd all just stop whining, and gave us a 5D2.5 back.....for $1500 more.
They are more expensive then anyone else....full frame or not.

I'd literally start taking bets right now that they'll do the exact same thing with the 7D, and give us the same camera with Digic 5's, same APS-C sensor, no moire, aliasing problems, and shitty resolution for about $3000....  And then they'll probably pause after they announce the price... Expecting people to blast off in their pants in excitement.

And then the gh3 will arrive.

[hoodlum]

[quote author=MattH link=topic=849.msg6119#msg6119 date=1339784451]
Wow.  Bad show from canon.  After the 5dmkiii I knew the resolution wouldn't be better, but I at least expected the moire and aliasing to be solved.  What reason do I now have to think it will EVER get solved in their 'rebel' line.  Presumably the video in their upcoming mirrorless cameras will be exactly the same, so I might as well forget being exited about them too.
[/quote]

Yes, I think the 650D and G1X tells us alot about the upcoming Canon Mirrorless.  I'll have similar video and overall slow processing.

[marike6]

Andrew, Why is aliasing and moire an issue when it's a Canon 650D produces it, but not an issue when it's from the Olympus OM-D that you seem to be recommending all over the place? 

The GH2 is obviously a better choice than the 650D, but I find it hard to believe that you are on such a soapbox for the OM-D.  That is truly a head-scratcher, knowing that there is no mike input, and only 30p.  The IBIS is nice but that doesn't make up for its extremely limited video feature set. And IBIS doesn't work at all with any manual lenses like the Voightlander 25 and 17, et al, so what good is it? Plus all the OM-D samples I've seen have looked over-sharpened, almost brittle with aliasing and moire, and fizzle in details. 

Tons of people use the 7D for quality video work, and the 650D has essentially the same IQ, yet for some reason, you want people to believe that the Rebel line is dead for video. And for some reason (I guess your raison d'être for video cameras is resolution) you seem to be constantly pushing the E-M5 even though it has it's own issues. 

Tons of people use the 7D for quality video work, and the 650D has essentially the same IQ,

When you suggest that EFS lenses, the brightest being f2.8 to support your argument it obvious that you are purposely leaving out that EF lenses, which offer 2 f1.2 lenses, work perfectly on every Canon body, the 650D included. 

I'm not a Canon user, but fair is fair.

[tehgeek]

This is their budget camera and the video is aimed at mums and dads who want to take family footage with their photo camera so I don't see it as a big deal. If the new 7D doesn't have the new tech that's in the 5DMK3 then ok that will be disappointing.

[Simco123]

GH2 is rubbish for bright daylight. It really is prone to highlight clipping and the DR is just rubbish giving its a very consumer look. Sure it renders details very well but if you only shoot in low light and indoors it would excel but definate no no for sunny outdoors.

The Rebel line dead for video? Don't make me laugh :D
Canon has just included in the 650D its first hybrid AF combining both phase and contrast detect for video to make it work with the new video optimised lens. Remember these lens arent like the ones you take stills with so they are pretty clever a lot better than the video lens from Lumix and GH2 video AF combo.

I believe dSLR prices are 90% geared towards taking stills hence the price.

[marike6]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=849.msg6138#msg6138 date=1339831872]
GH2 is rubbish for bright daylight. It really is prone to highlight clipping and the DR is just rubbish giving its a very consumer look. Sure it renders details very well but if you only shoot in low light and indoors it would excel but definate no no for sunny outdoors.

The Rebel line dead for video? Don't make me laugh :D
Canon has just included in the 650D its first hybrid AF combining both phase and contrast detect for video to make it work with the new video optimised lens. Remember these lens arent like the ones you take stills with so they are pretty clever a lot better than the video lens from Lumix and GH2 video AF combo.

I believe dSLR prices are 90% geared towards taking stills hence the price.
[/quote]

Neither the GH2 or the 600D are wonderful for DR. If, for example, you compare their DxOMark numbers you see that the 600D only managed .2 EV better (11.5 vs 11.3) at base ISO. 

Bright daylight, for photography and video, like a fast oncoming Mack truck should be avoided.  Flat, contrasty light with no shadows makes for extremely so-so images, IMHO. 

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=Simco123 link=topic=849.msg6138#msg6138 date=1339831872]
GH2 is rubbish for bright daylight. It really is prone to highlight clipping and the DR is just rubbish giving its a very consumer look.
[/quote]

Bullshit but easy to see where this misconception comes from. Use 5DToRGB to transcode GH2 footage, otherwise the highlights and dynamic range will be severely clipped.

[sandro]

title should be : Cinema5D review of Canon 650D confirms no fix for moire, aliasing and resolution

[Germy1979]

Andrew, i usually set 5d's gamma to 1.8, 4:4:4 full range, and BT 709 for Gh2 footage.
I'm sure this has been answered before somewhere, but i found this through trial and error and would trust your opinion more than my troubleshooting.  It looks flat as a board.  But i'm not sure that's just gamma.

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=Germy1979 link=topic=849.msg6156#msg6156 date=1339881880]
Andrew, i usually set 5d's gamma to 1.8, 4:4:4 full range, and BT 709 for Gh2 footage.
I'm sure this has been answered before somewhere, but i found this through trial and error and would trust your opinion more than my troubleshooting.  It looks flat as a board.  But i'm not sure that's just gamma.
[/quote]

I don't take this approach to gamma on the 5D. I find the transcode itself (full range) on AVCHD is enough and for the 5D I just edit the native files.

[Andrew Reid]

[quote author=sandro link=topic=849.msg6148#msg6148 date=1339865380]
title should be : Cinema5D review of Canon 650D confirms no fix for moire, aliasing and resolution
[/quote]

I wasn't expecting resolution to be fixed, so it isn't even news! ???

[marike6]

This sounds crazy but looking at the D3200 footage, I think it's crisper, and likely has better resolution than the 650D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVq62xX9NE4

Don't know what kind of manual controls it has, but clearly Nikon is getting closer to producing a usable APS-C HDSLR camera.

[Axel]

[quote author=marike6 link=topic=849.msg6467#msg6467 date=1340583471]
This sounds crazy but looking at the D3200 footage, I think it's crisper, and likely has better resolution than the 650D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVq62xX9NE4

Don't know what kind of manual controls it has, but clearly Nikon is getting closer to producing a usable APS-C HDSLR camera.
[/quote]

Maybe. The sample doesn't tell. Resolution is not to be judged in a crisp looking, organic image. Don't take sharpness (also the amplified contrasts on the outlines) for resolution, it has nothing to do with it. Actually, the more artificial sharpening, the more line patterns appear and you realize poor resolution (If there had been a pan in the first shot with the white mug ...). Speaking of contrasts: They are way too strong in this clip, imho. A softer, more HDR-like grading would have been better. I won't be surprised if the shadows didn't hold much detail but were quite noisy, which was typical for Nikon video in the past.

Owner of a few fast Nikon lenses, I hope you are right.

BTW: To be precise: APS-C = crop x 1,6, Nikon-DX (for the D3200) = crop x 1,554

[Rush_iam]

[quote]As a result the Rebel line is now dead for video and the 650D does nothing to change that.[/quote]

Are you serious?  ;D
550D, 600D and 60D are still awesome for video because of great tool Magic Lantern! (650D is on the way of getting ML)
It has tons of handy features, that other cameras don't have, so Rebel line still is very competetive in it's price range.

p.s. If you want get rid of moire and aliasing - wait for VA-filter. 7D VA-filter shows great performance, and there will be such filter for Rebel cameras.

[Andrew Reid]

Magic Lantern is a fantastic project.

However it does not improve image quality.