Gensnap Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I'm about to buy the A7s. My fear is the grading of the picture. I don't often edit as I don't have the resources or the knowledge, so hand over rushes to an editor who basically edits but due to budget constraints doesn't grade. Can anyone help me out. Which PP with any associated recipe will give me close to good pictures straight out the camera, particularly skin tones as I do a great deal of interviews. I will certainly learn ways to grade, but in the short term I need a profile that is pretty neutral. I guess you may ask, "why not just buy a camcorder" the reason is, I need the A7s as a stills camera too. Any help/ assuring comments will be very much appreciated, and of course any PP's and tweaks to achieve the " clean out of camera look".Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 If you're not going to grade and will use it as a hybrid camera, looking for nice straight out of the camera footage and good colors... why not go for a Nikon instead (D5300, D750, D810)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Reynish Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You can just shoot in SLOG and use a log LUT that you like. Doesn't have to take that long. Or, just shoot in rec 709 and avoid grading completely. You can do this just fine. Hitfabryk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gensnap Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thank you. I want the A7s for stills as I shoot on set and want to use the silent mode, so Nikon won't work, I also have Canon lenses.... thanks anyway.Where do I get the LUTs from, do you have any in mind? I'm totally green (sorry bad pun) to grading so any pointers would be greatly appreciated.Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Reynish Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You can use the Osiris LUTs. There are also many free ones on the web. For example, here: https://vimeo.com/105782210 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thank you. I want the A7s for stills as I shoot on set and want to use the silent mode, so Nikon won't work, I also have Canon lenses.... thanks anyway.Ah, I see, then I get the motivation to go mirrorless/A7S. I guess just buying one already will force you to learn quickly. Take a look here as well: http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/7737-a7s-slog2-is-really-really-flat/?page=1 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I've searched for official docs and specs for correctly processing the A7S's custom Slog2+SGamut implementation (not the same as the Sony Pro versions). While the Pro LUTs get close, colors aren't quite right, especially skin tones. Slog2+SGamut with the LUTs found so far can provide very cool looks. If one is looking for something accurate for skin tones, I haven't found LUTs which can do this. It's puzzling that Sony hasn't released tech specs for the A7S's custom Slog2+SGamut or official LUTs (as they do with the Pro cameras).I found the best all-around stock PP is PP6. Example here (stock PP6, auto ISO, auto WB, auto AF- event style shoot with many different skin tones and multiple colored lights): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq8m2FaVL1U . You can bump saturation a little in-camera and along with carefully set WB, get good out-of-camera footage. Indoors, PP4 isn't too shabby after dialing down saturation. I'm putting together a tutorial for matching A7S to 5D3 RAW with an emphasis on accurate skin tones. Currently testing the results on models/actors- so far so good. Will publish the results when done. caseywilsondp and noone 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's heartbreaking seeing no one suggesting to avoid the picture profiles altogether.PP - OFF!go neutral creative style, dial down contrast to -3 and sharpening to -3 and set wb correctly. then notch the 4 way wb adjustment away from green and towards magenta slightly.shooting using the camera exposure meters and all will be good. your editor will love the images. s-log aint worth the time and effort in its current implementation on the a7s IMO noone and Oliver Daniel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hey Rich, -3,0,-3 is how I had set up Neutral with PP off (unless it's the default?). It appears to be a Rec709 gamma and color mode. In my test environment, I need to set White Balance Adjustment to A4, G3 to get skin tones looking similar to my custom PP for skin tones. Using PP OFF + Neutral -3,0,-3 with the appropriate WB and WBA looks pretty good, however it's possible to get nicer highlight behavior and skin tones with a custom PP.It looks like PP OFF + Neutral blows to white sooner than the cine gammas and of course Slog2 using a Rec709(?) gamma similar to the graph below. This isn't for the A7S (any online?), however the curves are similar (HG's similar to cine gammas):Slog2 is usable with custom tweaks (#1 being don't use SGamut for color mode). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hey Rich, -3,0,-3 is how I had set up Neutral with PP off (unless it's the default?). It appears to be a Rec709 gamma and color mode. In my test environment, I need to set White Balance Adjustment to A4, G3 to get skin tones looking similar to my custom PP for skin tones. Using PP OFF + Neutral -3,0,-3 with the appropriate WB and WBA looks pretty good, however it's possible to get nicer highlight behavior and skin tones with a custom PP.It looks like PP OFF + Neutral blows to white sooner than the cine gammas and of course Slog2 using a Rec709(?) gamma similar to the graph below. This isn't for the A7S (any online?), however the curves are similar (HG's similar to cine gammas):Slog2 is usable with custom tweaks (#1 being don't use SGamut for color mode).I've been finding with wb set correctly I am getting more greens so need to dial them down / adjust with more magenta - almost the opposite of your findings. I guess 'correct skintones' are a subjective thing within reason. I find if I dont notch greens down a bit i need to always hit the greens in rgb curves.yes, the neutral doesnt have as much dynamic range as the PP's, but is the widest dr of the r709 'creative style' options as far as i am aware. Rather than filling up the somewhat limited xavc-s codec with more information than it can really cope with, I find the neutral creative style is very smooth and feels rather dynamic in it's handling of contrasty scenes - i always need to apply additional contrast in post suggesting that for me the camera is capturing enough dr for most situations where grading hassle might be a turn off. the fact that nd's need to be used for the additional dr due to the annoying 3200iso minimum, - most people using substandard options like nasty vari nd's, and the fact that you need to be seriously good at curves to get something worth the added hassle. Or luts which just crush the dr down to similar to the neutral creative style it seems moot to bother with log on this camera for most situations - and particularly for those worried about having to learn how to grade just to get something watchable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Have been testing under ~3000K continuous spectrum incandescent light (primary, along with (and without) blue-heavy ~5000+K monitor light). Will double check results including high CRI LED and CFL (not continuous spectrum). Will also check scopes in Resolve. The general pattern in my test case is the PP's have a green bias and PP OFF + Neutral has a magenta bias. Will post pics when I'm done testing.Slog2 has a base ISO of 3200- the Cinegammas are down in the 100's (e.g. 200). I use a 77mm gen 1 LCW Fader ND outdoors regardless of base ISO or PP. The 'cross pattern' at higher ND settings is indeed not pretty but so far has worked well enough if backed off a bit from max. The newer variable NDs are nicer (and work much better at longer focal lengths). The polarizers from variable NDs change the look as well (especially the sky when perpendicular to the sun- sometimes a good thing). I picked up standard NDs but have found the variable ND to be very handy for run & gun shooting- just a quick ring turn to adjust ND level (vs. screwing on/off or using magnetic mounts and having to swap/add/remove NDs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gensnap Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks to all for your feedback. It quite clear there is no specific science to getting images from this or I guess any camera. It is, as you say subjective and one persons preference is another's distaste. Part of my problem is fear of the unknown and all will seem less intimidating when I can test the camera for myself using the suggestions made here.One other question: Does it degrade the footage if I import it into my FCPX for basic grading then export out to supply to my editor. He will simply edit and not grade, so if I can grade prior to the edit, it will help a lot? I intend to record through the shogun as pro res HQ but not 4K.Greatly appreciate all your help !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Rich- one thing that can be used is AUTO DRO when in PP OFF + Neutral (where DRO is Dynamic Range Optimizer). In a quick test it brings up the shadows a bit in the background when the foreground is well-lit. This could be handy in some dynamic lighting situations (as long as nothing surprising happens). Will compare to custom PPs. Using an F&V R300 light (5600K decent color quality balanced LED), I still get more of a magenta bias vs. green for my skin tones (PP OFF). Will test with a darker skinned model shortly.Gensnap- stock PP6 and PP OFF + Neutral are good places to start. It's very important with the A7S to set WB as accurately as possible as well as the White Balance Adjustment (to fix typical green or magenta issues). Compared to the 5D Mark III (H.264), the 5D3 doesn't have much range in adjustments, and looks pretty good in most settings. The A7S has a huge amount of adjustments, and it's easy to get into no-man's land. That said, stock PP6 and PP-OFF + Neutral (-3,0,-3) are closer to 5D3 general ease-of-use. The cinegammas and Slog2 are more advanced and provide additional useful options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Reynish Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks to all for your feedback. It quite clear there is no specific science to getting images from this or I guess any camera. It is, as you say subjective and one persons preference is another's distaste. Part of my problem is fear of the unknown and all will seem less intimidating when I can test the camera for myself using the suggestions made here.One other question: Does it degrade the footage if I import it into my FCPX for basic grading then export out to supply to my editor. He will simply edit and not grade, so if I can grade prior to the edit, it will help a lot? I intend to record through the shogun as pro res HQ but not 4K.Greatly appreciate all your help !!!Seems like a weird workflow. It's easier to grade at the end. That way you have the original footage with all the data for grading. You wouldn't really want to grade twice - you'd just loose data and information for the final grade.If the log footage is too low contrast you can apply a LUT while editing. This is built in in FCP X for log footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Another member suggested Autumn Leaves with -3, 0, -3 settings, those settings produce good results. Samuel H on DVXuser posted a good slog profile that needs minimal grading. I'm terrible with grading and Film Convert is really helpful at getting a nice look, I started using the F55 profile and it works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxotis70 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Film Convert has special settings for A7s, you don't need F55's ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gensnap Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Forgive the naivety, but when you refer to -3,0,-3 what exactly do you mean? I'm assuming it's in the expanded feature menu of the PP's or is it without any PP at all and just the numbers refer to the photographic menus. I would really appreciate a pointer.Appreciate all your help !Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Forgive the naivety, but when you refer to -3,0,-3 what exactly do you mean? I'm assuming it's in the expanded feature menu of the PP's or is it without any PP at all and just the numbers refer to the photographic menus. I would really appreciate a pointer.Appreciate all your help !Cheers dial down contrast to -3 and sharpening to -3The settings are 'contrast' - 'saturation' and 'sharpness', so -3 for contrast and sharpness, leaving the saturation untouched (at 0, preserving color information).http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJNWY5EM4gg&t=8m40s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gensnap Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks CineG.....so, in the non PP settings mode dial down the contrast and sharpness. Much appreciated !!! It's a learning curve and I'm getting there. From a Hasselblad and Ektachrome it seems such a long way :)))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Film Convert has special settings for A7s, you don't need F55's ...I forgot they updated with an A7s profile. But with minimal grading skills you can get really good results (at least to my eyes) with Film Convert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.