Inquisitive Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Yeah, I do agree Bob is not the most diplomatic person around Can I also ask what your f-stop on both camera's was set to because that might also impact the image if it was set on auto.In auto they don't share that info but if I remember correctly it was indicating a starting point of f7.1. Perhaps just to continue to give Bob purpose in life I will do another test not side by side but just the scene he pulled stills from in manual mode same lens etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 You shot in a sunny environment and since you locked the shutter to 1/50 and didn't use a nd filter that can mean the camera will close down the iris completely which is causing diffraction meaning a soft image, it's a common mistake made by many who afterwards wonder why their image looks so soft on their camera. Just saying. If you shoot with the same settings as before I"m sure Bob will hit you with a stick again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 To tell you the truth, for my own good, I need to stop reading or watching any more YT comparisons from Inquisitive. Solomonic :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Goldberg Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 In auto they don't share that info but if I remember correctly it was indicating a starting point of f7.1. Perhaps just to continue to give Bob purpose in life I will do another test not side by side but just the scene he pulled stills from in manual mode same lens etc.Whatever you did to the YT video seriously degraded the detail rendering of the GH2 (but not the E-M5 II). My strong suggestion to you would be to take a frame grab from any future YT video and compare it to a frame grab from the original to see if you've degraded the fine detail so dramatically as you did in your past tests.If so, might I suggest that you figure out why and how to correct it. It's not the colors that are the primary issue, although you somehow managed to degrade those with your "corrections" of the GH2 as well.It's the fine detail and resolution that are at issue. The GH2 footage just looks so blurred compared to the OOC footage that it's clear you made some sort of mistake. I don't think YT alone is to blame for such a dramatic difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brawley Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Thanks John! Can you tell us a bit what your feedback was to Olympus? Do you know which of these things (or any others) can be improved? Hello. I can't say as it's beyond the bounds of what I can discuss. But mostly everything on the list here was also on my list that's already gone in. It's good to keep adding to it though. What I can say is that Olympus have told me that they intend to do firmware updates and add more features across all their models and plan to do so roughly every 6 months. The recent E-M1 updates are evidence of this intention. They will aim to do this for all current models. They have also told me they plan to make the E-M5 model their video centric camera, much like the GH series in panasonic. The E-M1 will still always be their flagship and top tier camera but aimed more at pro stills photographers. The E-M10 will be their enthusiast camera. The following is my conjecture only from what I know and the recent contact I've had with Olympus. They want to understand and do video well. But they're only just starting to incorporate it in their product planning and thinking. This makes me think that we would never see things like 4K suddenly added to the current E-M1 just through firmware. I also know that things like 24P aren't so easy to add in firmware as it should seem to be, mainly because if they haven't PLANNED for it, it's pretty hard to change the internal architecture to do it EVEN though logically it seems like a simple thing to do. They do things in their own way. They were the first to do live view. They were the first to do ultrasonic dust / sensor cleaning. They do lightweight, small and weatherproof as a matter of course... They're only just now seriously thinking about video. Tell them what you want.... JB sgreszcz, Nick Hughes, Don Kotlos and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPC Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 John, at the risk of sounding flippant, I think what most people want is simply what Olympus said they would get. Cinegain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitive Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I think I will be returning the EM5 mk ii not for one main reason but rather the sum total. The main reasons being the awkward way required to change fstop while recording, the crop factor 25% more than a GH2 IBIS on or off is to much for me, moire and shadow noise. I will keep an eye on it so if they upgrade firmware or the price comes down I will reevaluate. In fact if I had the excess money to afford 2 cameras I would keep it just for the IBIS alone it is that good and will be missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I think I will be returning the EM5 mk iiConsidered the same, but since I've been using the camera on a few things, I warmed up to it. The camera is certainly not refined for video like my Panasonic cameras are.Still, the benefits outweigh the limitations for me. I better not tell other camera manufacturers about my decision though. They might stop production of their high resolution sensors for video --and concentrate so much on 5axis stabilization that thier sensor IQ will falter and the whole economy of enthusiast cameras will crumble to the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I was genuinely planning to get this just for IBIS, even if I had to use a Ninja with it. It seems moire has scuppered it...Maybe EM1 ii?*sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 seems moire has scuppered it.I'm not the most talented shooter, but all you have to do with this camera is accept the limitations and exploit the advantages. You'll get good shots. Maybe that's why I kind of like ...some...most (?)... of what I'm getting from the Oly. It's "quieting" my lens while handheld and making simple quick shots look rather elegant.Moreover, if one is a decent visual storyteller a lot of this clutching-of-IQ-pearls is not that important.I know some of us might require a velvet tufted chaise to fall into when we witness the EM5II's moiré, but others will roll with it and make it work.Obviously, here on the internet, it's all great procrastination fodder. For me especially...I think this is my 20th post on the topic. Anyway, I have some pragmatic "real world" footage from yesterday. When I get it edited, I'll put up a link; w/the raw ungraded shots. Don Kotlos and Jimbo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 They're only just now seriously thinking about video. Tell them what you want.... JB John you are great! Its good to know that I shouldn't wait for an videocentric update of my E-M1. Do you know what is the official channel of communication with Olympus? Because I have sent feedback to many companies, but never gotten a response or even an indication that they took it into account. Maybe if it comes through established filmmakers such as yourself will make an actual impact? At your site you mention that you would like a 10bit output and higher bitrate. While that would be awesome, do you think it is possible via a firmware update? Also did you have any experience with the HDMI output after the v1.0 firmware? One last thing : You mention that you used a relatively flat setting. Is there a reason you didn't use the curves to flatten it more? What is your experience on this? Thanks again for all your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPC Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 fuzzynormal - "I know some of us might require a velvet tufted chaise to fall into when we witness the EM5II's moiré, but others will roll with it and make it work." So how would you make that San Francisco dusk cityscape work? I just can't see how you would be able to acceptably get that shot with this camera. I get the shallow depth of field / old lens / change your composition strategy but if you simply can't do wide urban establishing shots there's a problem, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 So how would you make that San Francisco dusk cityscape work?I wouldn't. Not with the Oly.At best with the EM5II you could focus on something in the foreground and leave the back slightly soft. If you want to shoot infinity focus cityscapes and moiré bothers you, don't shoot with the EM5II. This camera has moiré. Hardly a secret. Know that while using it and you work around the limitation.For instance, almost all the other shots in that particular video read fine. I just would't have used the moiré cityscape shot in the cut. I suppose that why it's called editing.Honestly, if that was somehow a mission critical shot for a client and I HAD to get that shot, I'd pull out my GM1 for that last bit of coverage.Yes, I know, everyone is bummed that the EM5II is sub par on the moire IQ, and I realize everyone wants perfection and their own ideal in whatever camera(s) they're carrying around. If that ideal falls short, holy moly the internet is going to have something to say. Well, this EM5II might not be a perfect video camera(not even close), but it's a stretch to think that it's not a useful tool in many other regards. Depending on who you are and what you want to do it might be a useful tool in all regards.Oh my, I'm feeling a little dizzy. My stars... I'll be in the parlor. Somebody ring the footman for some Earl Gray and a biscuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I wouldn't. Not with the Oly. I would, I just would use a tripod and make a static shot, that will work fine, sure any pixel peepers will notice that those parts, like very small roof tiles don't have any real detail in them but at least you won't get any dancing lines across your screen when you pan. You can be sure that any person, that is not a enthusiastic videographer, will ever notice this "problem", it's only us videonerds that see the artifacts. Don Kotlos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I would, I just would use a tripod and make a static shot, that will work fine, sure any pixel peepers will notice that those parts, like very small roof tiles don't have any real detail in them but at least you won't get any dancing lines across your screen when you pan. You can be sure that any person, that is not a enthusiastic videographer, will ever notice this "problem", it's only us videonerds that see the artifacts.Yeah, one can work around it. Although, for a video that is full on handheld like the one we're talking about, might not want to go away from that at the end. But you could have a lot of foreground movement to mask the tripod static-ness. BTW, you may have heard, with this camera you can shoot handheld, keep it steady, and pretty much have it look like a static shot. --Something about this special feature the EM5II has built into it. They call it 5-axis stabilization. Some say it's kind of neat.(as mentioned though, I'd grab that shot with my GM1)Anyway, I agree with you! Where there's a will there is a way. These are concepts that dudes hanging out at DXOmark.com with a magnify glass probably have a hard time comprehending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 BTW, you may have heard, with this camera you can shoot handheld, keep it steady, and pretty much have it look like a static shot. --Something about this special feature the EM5II has built into it. They call it 5-axis stabilization. Some say it's kind of neat. Yes, but even the slightest movement, no matter how small, can result in moire that could be distracting enough to lead the viewers eye away from what you are actually trying to show. I consider myself a moire hiding specialist having to deal with that for years, first on my 550d and later on my nex-ea50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Yes, but even the slightest movement, no matter how small, can result in moire that could be distracting enough to lead the viewers eye away from what you are actually trying to show.I do wonder though, and am tempted to find out, with a 12mm steady handheld on the EM5II, how much would really show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Hughes Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I do wonder though, and am tempted to find out, with a 12mm steady handheld on the EM5II, how much would really show?I find moire to stand out much more on close-to-static shots than on those that are moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I find moire to stand out much more on close-to-static shots than on those that are moving.Yeah, the "slow crawl." Still, it would be a worthwhile test just to get a handle on the actual limitations; knowing how far I could acceptably be able to push my luck, or not, as it were. Nick Hughes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Well, probably can't get a subject more "typical end user" than this. So here's a few minutes of the EM5II @24fps, 25 shutter speed, Natural Picture Mode, Contrast -2, Sharpness -2, Saturation -2, Gradation Normal, FullHD. Olympus 12-40mm 2.8 lens. Uploaded the file to Vimeo in the native file format as shot, no grade, no nuthin.' Flaws and all. If you want to download it and watch it 'till your eyes bleed, feel free. Sometimes I prefer motion pictures with edge blur so I shot this with 0° shutter. That's a particular taste, keep it in mind. https://vimeo.com/122338262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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