Olympus E-M5 Mark II - love and hate at first sight

[Bob Goldberg]

 

​I understand that's what you're trying to say.  I disagree.  I think most here are indeed just that or trying to be.

 

​I don't know what to tell you.  My experience tells me that this is just wrong.  

Oly's 5-axis stabilizer is the best it gets.  This is why the video is such a let down.  You don't hear too many people expressing serious disappointment about the video on a Fuji camera, for instance.  There's a reason for that.  A Fuji camera doesn't have a killer stabilization feature that we'd like to see paired with great video capability.

I do make a living at this low-end video production and own or have used almost all of these systems that you mentioned.  On the other hand, from your own admission, you're forming an opinion based on internet testimony and examples.  As such all I can say is that your writings are based on a bit of self-professed ignorance.  So comment what you will, but I'm not going to hold your opinion in the highest regard --and I suspect others here on EOSHD might share that outlook.

The reason Oly's 5-axis stabilization is touted is because it's superior, that's why it matters.  As they say, "if you haven't tried it, don't knock it."

Look, I can tell you that the Sony A7s camera has such great low light capability that a single candle will illuminate an exposure of the grand canyon.  Now, you've read that.  It still doesn't make it a reality.

I think we've gone full circle and round around enough.  I promise I'll lay off responding to you now.  FWIW, I have been entertained by your posts.  Thanks for that.

​You're wrong. Where did I ever "admit" that I'm forming an opinion based on internet testimony. I think OOC internet examples are a perfectly valid way to form an opinion, especially when they're shooting the same thing. But, not to toot my own horn, I really do have a pretty good eye for spotting quality, even without a direct comparison, especially if the difference is massive. But it always helps to have a comparison.

I'm probably one of the biggest "showroomers" out there. And that's pretty much the only way that a typical person will get to try out everything under the sun. Go to the stores, feign interest, and spend a half an hour trying it out.

Have you tried Sony's balanced OIS? Do you know what it is? Have you compared this to Oly's 5-axis IBIS without digital stabilization. I'll bet you that the balanced OIS creates not only more stable video but also much better quality video.

Have you personally compared your 100-300 on the E-M5 II at 300mm with digital stabilizer turned off? I'd be interested to see this comparison. And it should also be noted that this was one of Panasonic's earliest tele lenses (which is known to have worse stabilization than their newer lenses) and it's also their inferior mega OIS. For instance, their 45-175 with power OIS, which I have, has substantially better stabilization than the 100-300. And, as soon as I can go to a store to test it out, I'm going to take my 45-175 with me and compare the OIS to IBIS (without digital) at 175mm.

I've already been to a local camera store twice BTW to try out the E-M5 II, but they had none to try out. It was too early for them to have store displays, and they weren't willing to open a new one for me to try out.

And, again I'll say, IQ is the most important thing in an interchangeable lens camera, not stabilization.

[fuzzynormal]

Where did I ever "admit" that I'm forming an opinion based on internet testimony. I think OOC internet examples are a perfectly valid way to form an opinion

Well, sorry to break a promise, but here it goes:  

Please look at those two sentences above and try to notice the contradiction.

​Have you tried Sony's balanced OIS? Do you know what it is?

Yes.  Yes.​  It's very good, not as accomplished as OLY 5-axis.  It drifts more.

Have you compared this to Oly's 5-axis IBIS without digital stabilization.

​Asking for a comparison while deliberately handicapping the comparison? I think you were upset at an earlier example of this in previous posts.

Have you personally compared your 100-300 on the E-M5 II at 300mm with digital stabilizer turned off?

​Yes.  But I would use the full stabilization feature set.  Handheld at a FFeqiuv of over 600mm it is required.

again I'll say, IQ is the most important thing in an interchangeable lens camera, not stabilization

​Okay.  And for my work I think otherwise.  You're right, I'm right.

So, please take the last word if you'd like to respond.  I have no intention of engaging beyond this.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

For instance, their 45-175 with power OIS, which I have, has substantially better stabilization than the 100-300. And, as soon as I can go to a store to test it out, I'm going to take my 45-175 with me and compare the OIS to IBIS (without digital) at 175mm.

​I've done it once with my 45-175mm and my E-M10 (just 3 axis IBIS). At least for still, looking in the EVF while framing, the IBIS in the E-M10 looked a little bit more stable compared when I turn off the IBIS and use the lens OIS.

[mat33]

​One thing you should keep in mind is that I'm not a pro. The vast majority of people that read Mr. Reid's blog are not pros. They buy one camera and that's pretty much it.

For these people, the E-M5 II is simply not the answer IMO because the average consumer doesn't buy an ILC for stabilization. They buy it for great image quality.

​I disagree with this as well.  I think many people new to shooting video buy these cameras because they are seeking a 'cinematic' look.  Obviously this is a nebulous term but DOF control is a big part of this which is small sensor camcorders are not an option.  They want a camera that could allow them to create a pro-quality film, even if that film is about their kids or a family vacation.  They watch vimeo staff picks and think, if only I had that camera I could make a film just like that.  They then look at professional review sites, and dream for a moment about owning a C100/300 or 1DC or a FS7 before reality sets in (mainly $$$ and size/weight)  and they accept a small, prosumer ILC is the way to go, and they are happy as after all some vimeo staff picks are filmed on a GH4 or A7s.  

They then get their GH4/A7s and while the image is great, their film isn't like the staff picks they were watching.  As they chase around their kids, or when on holiday try to shoot artistic shots while keeping up with their family, their handheld image is shaky with rolling shutter and just doesn't look as good as they hoped.  With time they then realise how much skill and time goes into shooting those staff picks, and how the camera is the smallest part of the equation -how lighting, composition, audio, editing, colour grading and stable camera movement are just if not more important.  

This is why I think the E-M5ii is a good choice for the average consumer.  I think for the run and gun, uncontrolled event style shooting that they do when out with their family, having a stable image and the ability to add cinematic style camera movement with no rigging or set-up time adds more to the quality of their film than higher resolution.  But hey its just my opinion, everyone can make their own decision.

[Bob Goldberg]

Well, sorry to break a promise, but here it goes:  

Please look at those two sentences above and try to notice the contradiction.

​There's no contradiction. Testimony implies someone's opinion. Since when have I ever listened to ANYONE about anything. Even you will agree that I don't care what anyone else thinks.

Cameras don't give testimony and they don't lie. Their output (unedited) doesn't lie.

 

​Asking for a comparison while deliberately handicapping the comparison? I think you were upset at an earlier example of this in previous posts.

​There's no such thing as a (seriously) handicapped OOC (i.e. unedited) comparison IMO. If you have a trained eye, you can make do with any settings. Most camera manufacturers do not allow the settings to go low enough to negatively impact actual fine detail.

The only way you can handicap a comparison is by compressing or editing it. And I've never said otherwise. Certain in camera settings do look much worse when compressed, but as long as you avoid any editing, it's all good.

And most of my comments to Inquisitive were just to get him to post the OOC footage. I simply guessed that the in camera settings he used on the GH2 looked worse when compressed on YT. But I was probably wrong about that on review of his footage. The GH2 was so markedly better in the OOC comparison that I believe he did something wrong at the editing step before uploading that severely degraded the GH2.

 

 

​Yes.  But I would use the full stabilization feature set.  Handheld at a FFeqiuv of over 600mm it is required.

​The full stabilization set includes digital, which isn't any real technological advantage of Olympus cameras or IBIS. Digital stabilization can be included on future Panasonic cameras and done in post. If you want to really know the advantages of IBIS, then use IBIS only.

Regarding Sony's "drift", have you compared the balanced steadyshot to IBIS only (without digital). Somehow I doubt you've actually tried it seriously, but I doubt that Sony's Balanced Steadyshot drifts more or performs worse than 5-axis IBIS only. Not from the examples I've seen and my own usage.

BTW, feel free to respond as often as you want. No need to do it right away. I'm not going anywhere.

 

 

[Bob Goldberg]

​I've done it once with my 45-175mm and my E-M10 (just 3 axis IBIS). At least for still, looking in the EVF while framing, the IBIS in the E-M10 looked a little bit more stable compared when I turn off the IBIS and use the lens OIS.

​The E-M10 also uses digital stabilization. And looking through the VF is hardly a comprehensive test.

But any testing is helpful.

[noa]

but I doubt that Sony's Balanced Steadyshot drifts more or performs worse than 5-axis IBIS only. Not from the examples I've seen and my own usage.

​Which Sony camera are you referring to? The only camera I know in Sony's range that has a stabilization not matched by any other camera, except the em5,  is their small handicam cx line which is now being replaced by the ax33, I have a cx730 with the "magic eyeball", the stabilization on that thing is exceptionally good and from what I have seen so far from the EM5 II it's equally good. The only major difference being that the Sony doesn't have the ability to fit on fast primes.

[Inquisitive]

I stopped using the mode 1 and just used 2.  With Mode 1 you would get some strangeness sometimes if you moved the wrong way.  I like mode 2 better and found it better than mega OIS on my 14-140 Power OIS no clue.  I just want them to reduce crop which I think they do mainly because of the mode 1 digital stabilization that I personally learned to shy away from.

[mat33]

​You're wrong. Where did I ever "admit" that I'm forming an opinion based on internet testimony. I think OOC internet examples are a perfectly valid way to form an opinion, especially when they're shooting the same thing. But, not to toot my own horn, I really do have a pretty good eye for spotting quality, even without a direct comparison, especially if the difference is massive. But it always helps to have a comparison.

​The problem with internet examples is that for many consumer cameras, the initial examples posted are all from still photographers (even from the 'expert' review sites, this site notwithstanding :-)) who, by their own admission know little about video.  They often just shoot on automatic mode and let the lenses stop right down, use some crappy variable ND, or turn sharpness down in cam (because thats what you are supposed to do) but then don't add any sharpness back in post.  This may be one reason some E-M5ii films look ok and some pretty average.  I think it is not wise to make a firm conclusion from these initial postings until someone with video experience spends some time with the camera and learns its quirks, strengths and weaknesses.  Patience is a virtue, and that is especially the case when making a definitive conclusion about a new camera.

[Bob Goldberg]

​Which Sony camera are you referring to? The only camera I know in Sony's range that has a stabilization not matched by any other camera, except the em5,  is their small handicam cx line which is now being replaced by the ax33, I have a cx730 with the "magic eyeball", the stabilization on that thing is exceptionally good and from what I have seen so far from the EM5 II it's equally good. The only major difference being that the Sony doesn't have the ability to fit on fast primes.

​Yeah, I was referring to the AX33, which is the 4K successor to the CX730. It does have about 1/9 the sensor area of the E-M5 II (assuming a 20% crop, which I don't know). One advantage of the AX33 is that it does 4K with exactly 3840x2160 pixels, so it should be very sharp and nearly artifact free. The small size of the sensor also helps reduce rolling shutter.

Even though the sensor is 1/9 the size, it's a more efficient sensor than current MFT sensors, so it should perform well in low light. Not as well as MFT, but decent.

For the average consumer looking for great video quality with great stabilization (when walking), I'd recommend the AX33.

The reason I use MFT (Panasonic specifically) is because I want to maintain top notch video quality at focal lengths other than wide angle. I'm just not convinced that the zoom lenses on these compacts and camcorders are all that great, except at the widest angle. For instance, with the GH4, I can maintain the same quality at 300mm eq. as I can at 30mm eq. I don't think that's possible with a compact or camcorder. My GH2 (with good lenses) maintains MUCH better detail at longer focal lengths than camcorders and compacts. Also, I still think that MFT cameras, like the GH series, maintain an edge in terms of fine detail and sharpness over camcorders (even at their best focal lengths). And the difference in low light performance should not be underestimated either, especially at longer focal lengths.

None of the reasons I choose MFT have anything to do with shallow DoF or artistic effects (or stabilization). It' purely IQ considerations, and that's the reason I don't use camcorders. But, again, not to sound like a broken record, if the IQ wasn't there, then the next logical option would be camcorders (not an MFT camera without top notch IQ).

[Inquisitive]

 

Here is a interesting video no clue what he is saying but EM5 mk ii looks good here.  Looks like it's 1080p 60 and Power OIS on the GH4.  So interesting from quality and stabilization of course it's YT.

[Wulf]

oh no, pls - he will be back ... LOL

Olympinatis everywhere

[sgreszcz]

 

And regarding stabilization, I'm going to say it again. Panasonic has some very nice stabilized lenses out there. And they're beginning to take the stabilized prime market seriously. Unfortunately, 3 of their 4 stabilized primes are in the 42.5mm to 45mm range, but it's a start. I think they're starting to take it seriously, having just released 2 new ones. And, honestly, in the telephoto focal length range, I'm not sure IBIS (when excluding the DIS) gives you much of an advantage (if any) over OIS. I recognize the advantage when walking and running, but I don't believe this advantage is still there once you extend the zoom and once you exclude Olympus' digital stabilizer. I've always maintained that as the focal length increases, OIS actually becomes better. I'm not sure where that focal length is at though.

​My only Panasonic OIS lens, the 35-100/2.8, unfortunately adds a lot of jitter (even after the recent firmware upgrade), making it less than useful for handheld video shooting.  On the other hand The OIS built into the LX-100 does seem to eliminate image shake (at least for me).  My longer primes and zooms did stabilise video very well on my E-P5 with IBIS, but I had to keep the depth of focus small with little movement (like portraits) or the image blocked up.

[Don Kotlos]

They guy that shot the hairdresser was not that happy with the editing and shot it again with only a couple of lenses. So here is yet another one made with the E-M5ii:

 

 

[Mk.82]

"The reason this may not show up (as much) in stills is because you don't need to have the sensor active as long for stills as you do for video."

 

Problem with that assumption is that mirror less cameras does full sensor readout all the time when powered up. Everything is recorded and processed down sampling to keep details etc. 

 

When you hit record, the CCPU starts to process high bandwidth requirement data compression and battery will be consumed more, both heating up.

 

The  sensor doesn't heat up. You can confirm this by using a FLIR to see how E-M5 sensor stay cold at long recording times (60min) but the CPU and battery warms up. That heat is directed to aluminum body at back. 

 

There was few years ago videos of tests E-M5 being in Sauna at 75° temperature IBIS enabled and recording 3x20min videos continually. The video didn't look worse after thethe first 2x20 session but was same as the first seconds when the camera was brought to in sauna. After last 20min the noise started to be more visible but difference was like shooting ISO 3200 vs 800. Still very usable.

The sensor heating isn't caused by itself capturing and processing ADC.

 

All the talks about sensor heating up because IBIS are nicely said ignorance. 

 

The mirrorbox needs to be shielded from CPU and battery, otherwise that heat gets quickly transmitted to  mirrorbox (in this case sensor box).

[msiris]

How do you feel this stabilizer?

 

[Mattias Burling]

 

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Can church of magic cure Moire?

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[DBounce]

 

Can church of magic cure Moire?

If so, count me in. 

Or rolling shutter?

[Mattias Burling]

Or rolling shutter?

My camera doesn't have that

[Don Kotlos]

Church of magic needs to enable the 4k mode and soon cause when Sony gets their sh*t together and provide a useful IBIS for video it will be too late.